Do you hate George Preston Marshall?

[pjfootballer]

The Second block was full of loss and biggotry. He became more of a penny pincher and wouldn't allow African-Americans play on his teams. This lead to many disappointing seasons as well as the stigma that we were a team stuck in the past. His racist point of views were obviously unjustified and out-dated and the team we love so much was permanatly hurt by his decisions.

His views were not outdated at the time. I'm not defending his views, but in the 30's and 40's, most blacks couldn't do anything. It may be outdated now, but not back then. You need a history lesson.

[pjfootballer]

I've had conversations with my friends regarding the Skins name. George Preston Marshall in a nutshell was supposed to be honoring native americans/indians with the Skins name. The only thing I say to that is, how can you honor someone that can't play for you? I mean if I named something in honor of a particular race or people, it would seem that they could play or work for me.

In any event when some Native Americans object to the Skins name, I think they sometimes have a point. I'm a Skins fan but I have to wonder if that name was meant to honor Indians or did Marshall look down on Native Americans when he used the name Braves/Skins as a Mascot.

It was a spinoff of the Boston Braves baseball team

[pjfootballer]

Its far too easy to claim someone is a product of their time when it comes to bigotry. After all' date=' if everyone was a racist back in the day, why isn't everyone still a racist? The funny thing is that sports have often been the catalyst for change in society. A good example is Jackie Robinson, who proved that Blacks are on the same level as Whites in the athletic arena. Marshall, if he had any sense of empathy for his fellow man, would not have held the beliefs he did. Most of us have chosen not to be racists because it is morally the right thing to do, and not because it seems to be in vogue.[/quote']

Talk to anyone over the age of 80 and they will tell you how it was in thos days. Those same people who are alive to this day probably have the same view, but are not coming out with their views because of their age and the PC world we live in.

[pjfootballer]

Views change on everything. Do you believe exactly as your Mom and Dad do? In 100 years do you think cultures will have the same beliefs that they do now? There will be something that we do now that is considered perfectly acceptable and normal that will absolutely astound further generations as inhumane.

It also kills me that so many people think that racism or bigotry is an American problem. You can go into every single country and find bigotry of some kind. My wife is Vietnamese and when we first started dating her Mom was disappointed that her daughter wasn't dating a nice Vietnamese boy but she was relieved I wasn't Filippino. Take a look at Great Britain, Africa, the Middle East, Eastern Europe, the Pacific Rim or the Far East.

Point well said. My wife is Peruvian and they have Indian cultures that live in the Andes. They are considered second class citizens in her country and are shunned.

You can't change history. You can only move forward.

[BleedBNG]

The only thing I say to that is, how can you honor someone that can't play for you? I mean if I named something in honor of a particular race or people, it would seem that they could play or work for me.

GPM renamed the Boston Braves to the Boston Redskins in honor of the head coach, William "Lone Star" Dietz, an American Indian.

Sidenote: Did you know we were the first team to introduce cheerleaders into the NFL.

[DCMONEY]

GPM renamed the Boston Braves to the Boston Redskins in honor of the head coach, William "Lone Star" Dietz, an American Indian.

Sidenote: Did you know we were the first team to introduce cheerleaders into the NFL.

If that is true fine. I'm just saying is kinda ironic that people of darker color couldn't play for the Skins yet he says the name was to honor Native Americans.

[dante33]

Saying GPW is a "product of his time" is an excuse for bigotry. What really sets a man apart is when he chooses NOT to be a product of his time despite political pressures.

In professional sports Red Auerbach comes to mind drafting Chuck Cooper in 1950 definitely not a politically correct move for the time. But he saw talent not color, I always wanted to ask "Red" about that, if opportunity presented itself, to gauge where the rest of management was at when they drafted Cooper, were they all on the same page? Of course it's a business but just to hear it straight from "Red" with his stories.

:cool:

[#1SkinsFan]

Nope he brought the Redskins to DC

I do hate him for his segregist ways however

couldn't have put it better myself. :applause:

[D'Pablo]

You guys are kidding right...

Racism is Racism, regardless of what the race of the racist is. The problem of racism will never probably be solved, especially in America, because it is so deeply rooted in the development of this Nation. Everyone just needs to chillout (sometime) and take things for that they are worth. Plus, so many things can be considered racist or racially motivated depending on who the listener is and who the speaker is (especially among whites and blacks). For example, one poster said something about the black athlete versus the white athlete. Why can't they just be athletes??? For example, D'Pablo raised a good point, below, but again one could then raise the question does this only exist in sports??? Are blacks inferior in every other aspect other than sports???

I don't doubt that D'Pablo had any racist intentions but I am only picking on you to make a point. (Please don't get mad). I am trying to illustrate that people can perceive things in outrageous ways and the intentions could have been purely innocent. Yeah sure people point out differences all the time and until we can sit back and have a corona and embrace our differences instead of shaming them, then racism will always exist.

Now back to Marshall, I definitely feel that the time in which he lived played a part in not only shaping his views, but also in how he expressed them. But, to me all is forgiven because the past is the past.

Here's to letting it go and moving on.

I seriously think you misread my post. I said, "The funny thing is that sports have often been the catalyst for change in society" prior to portion of my text that you quoted. That's not to say that its the only place where equality is championed. It is, however, well documented that all minorities seemed to have gained equality in the sports and entertainment portion of society before the real world followed.

Sammy Davis Jr. was staying at white hotels way before Ben Carson was ever taken seriously as a neurosurgeon. In the example I presented, I never said Blacks were superior to Whites in sports, but I pointed to the fact that Blacks were able to reach a state of equality in baseball that was unprecedented in society at the time. I purposely worded it as such.

Also, in no way do I imply that Blacks have not been able to gain equality in other places in society or are inferior in any respect. I'm not sure where you gathered that from.

[[[ghost]]]

Walt Disney was a rabid Anti-Semite, but tons of people still adore him...

really?

nevertheless, anyone who is as rascist isn't perfect in my book, but then again, it wasn't uncommon to be one in that day.

[Joe Sick]

His will specifically stated that of the money he left for charity, none could be used for any charity that supported or helped minorities...

Compare that with the legacy that Jack Kent Cooke left behind - the majority of his life's earning left to scholarships specifically FOR the underprivileged.

That's why JKC is the Man, the Squire, while GPM was just some racist in a fur coat.

The "product of his times" comments are a total cop-out. If everyone was just a product, we would never advance as civilzed people. :2cents:

[The 12th Commandment]

The man is an enigma.

He did some really wonderful things to impact the pageantry of the game as well as the game on the field. He initiated a change to the rules to increase scoring by allowing passes by anyone behind the line of scrimmage, he was one the first to make field goal kicking a larger part of the game (don't know if that's so good really) and he created a fan base that was and is the best in the NFL. He as also one of the first owners to put his team on TV. And in a backward way he brought us Bobby Mitchell after his first black draft pick, first rounder Ernie Davis, refused to play for the "SOB".

He also was a bigoted man long past the time when it was mainstream. The other owners had started using blacks by the mid 40's. He didn't until the 60's and then only because the powers that be threatened to cancel his lease of RFK. No excuse for that. And it throws a big cold blanket on all the good he did. He'll always be remembered as the leading racist of the NFL and rightfully so. What a shame.

[saskin]

George Preston Marshall was a man of his time. I don't think that we should really hold his views against him as much as some people do because his views were pretty much accepted at the time.

[OriginalWhizzinator]

I cant respect the guy at all....LAST OWNER TO INTEGRATE....come on, the guy was a d*bag

[asacks]

The guy is not my favorite given his policies on race, that's for darn sure. Bringing the skins to DC? That had to happen anyway, right? I mean, it was fated to happen, how could it not have?

In all seriousness, I think you can love the current team, love the history of the team (e.g. Sammy Baugh) and feel strongly that what a previous owner did was terribly wrong. The correct change started with Bobby Mitchell of course (forced by league, but big credit to him as first black redskin!) then Lombardi followed by George Allen and The Squire came in and wiped away the nastiness/darkness associated with Marshall.

So I love the skins despite George Preston Marshall, and think All skins fans do an honor to our team and country by recognizing the past and, in response, we are consciously comitted to being a great, equality supporting franchise and fan base! Hail!

[asacks]

George Preston Marshall was a man of his time. I don't think that we should really hold his views against him as much as some people do because his views were pretty much accepted at the time.

Holding a view that is accepted at the time does not make it any less morally repugnant. Furthermore, Marshall's actions as the LAST owner to integrate suggest that he was far outside even the mainstream of his own time.

[BleedBNG]

If that is true fine. I'm just saying is kinda ironic that people of darker color couldn't play for the Skins yet he says the name was to honor Native Americans.

Yeah. I understand what your saying. Too bad for him though that he harbored those prejudice feelings. Now it's what goes around, comes around.

Like GPM hate threads.

[floydfurillo]

Man, what a small world.I'm a Potomac grad.I thought Crossland was our rival also.We just used your school as practice dummies.:laugh:

Oxon Hill grad here...Back when we were a perennial football power. 1982 State Champs. Friendly was our big rival back then.

[Donita35]

I seriously think you misread my post. I said' date=' "The funny thing is that sports have often been the catalyst for change in society" prior to portion of my text that you quoted. That's not to say that its the only place where equality is championed. It is, however, well documented that all minorities seemed to have gained equality in the sports and entertainment portion of society before the real world followed.

Sammy Davis Jr. was staying at white hotels way before Ben Carson was ever taken seriously as a neurosurgeon. In the example I presented, I never said Blacks were superior to Whites in sports, but I pointed to the fact that Blacks were able to reach a state of equality in baseball that was unprecedented in society at the time. I purposely worded it as such.

Also, in no way do I imply that Blacks have not been able to gain equality in other places in society or are inferior in any respect. I'm not sure where you gathered that from.[/quote']

Actually I understood your post and your position quite well. I was using it to make another point. Plus, I never said that you said that blacks were superior to whites. I was trying to make a point about perceptions of what people say. Sorry if I offended you and your beliefs. All in all, I wasn't saying you said anything about blacks in society. Perhaps I was ineffective in my wording.

But I did say that I was taking what you said to make another point about how people can perceive things as racism but others may not in my original post. I am not sure what I said offended you. Whatever it was I apologize. I was merely expanding on a good point that you brought up. No need for any animosity. It was all gravy.

Here is what I said...

I don't doubt that D'Pablo had any racist intentions but I am only picking on you to make a point. (Please don't get mad). I am trying to illustrate that people can perceive things in outrageous ways and the intentions could have been purely innocent. Yeah sure people point out differences all the time and until we can sit back and have a corona and embrace our differences instead of shaming them, then racism will always exist.

[ouvan59]

Really they haven't that much. It's just not as blatant.

Actually it has changed a huge amount. Anybody that can remember the 60s knows how much it has changed especially if you lived in the South. My Dad was Air Force and we lived in quite a few places including Montgomery, Alabama and St. Petersburg, Florida in the 60s. I went to school with George Wallace's daughter Janie Lee in 1966. If you think things haven't changed you don't really understand the indignities and hopeless frustration that blacks lived in back then. I don't think you can truly appreciate the humiliating experience of having to give up your seat on a bus to another person for no good reason and not being able to do a damn thing about it. Not being able to eat at a restaurant or drink from a water fountain or use a rest room.

It also wasn't just blacks. Jews and Asians were discriminated against as well. My mom and grandmother were denied a hotel room in Florida in the late 30s because the proprietor thought they were Jewish (last name Lundberg).

Racism is still a big problem but huge strides have been made. It gets better every year the more the races co-exist the more they get to realize that they aren't all that different and want the same things. But we still have a long, long way to go.

[DCMONEY]

Holding a view that is accepted at the time does not make it any less morally repugnant. Furthermore, Marshall's actions as the LAST owner to integrate suggest that he was far outside even the mainstream of his own time.

Well said.

[MattiesDad]

GPM is a historical enigma. He revolutionized pro-football and he is responsible for creating one of the most loyal and rabid fan bases in all of professional sports. GPM was also an unabashed racist. To evaluate the man you have to take into account the man in his totality. That is why I say he is an enigma because he did both great and terrible things. He was instrumental in making the Redskins what they are today while at the same time his racism contributed to the dreadful teams of the period of 1945 through the mid 1960s.

I wrote a scholarly paper on the subject of the integration of the Washington Redskins. Contrary to what some of you have posted, Marshall did not integrate the team, he fought against integration tooth and nail. It was only when he realized that the multitude of forces arrayed against him: The Federal government, civil rights organizations, The NFL, Pete Rozelle in particular, did he finally give in and accept the inevitable.

Personally, I don't hate him. As a historical figure I find him him both fascinating and despicable. To this day Art Modell defends Marshall against the charge of racism.

If you are interested in reading the paper, PM me with your email address and I will send it to you. It is long, but choc full of Redskins and NFL history. I had the pleasure to conduct interviews with Sam Huff, Frank Herzog, and Andy Pollin.