Charlie Sheen: US Govt. committed 9/11...

[Westbrook36]

Baculus sure has tons of proof. For every engineer or scientist or expert we can produce which completely rips apart any theory he can come up with, he has um, a bunch of guys wearing tin foil hats from the internet.

[Predicto]

First of all, keep in mind that a skyscraper has never collapsed from a fire. Ever. The WTC buildings are the only known examples in history. Even after skyscrapers have completely burned from the top to bottom floor, these buildings have held fast and upright.

How many skyscrapers had tens of thousands of gallons of high grade avation fuel burning inside of them as the basis for the fire?

Oh, why am I even bothering.

[Air Force Cane]

"And not to dishonor those who died that day."

You are a hypocrite par excellence.

You don't want to dishonor our heroic dead huh? But you claim that their Commander in Chief murdered them.

You don't want to dishonor our military dead? But you claim that at least SOME part of the military that they served was in on a plot to murder them, and is covering up the conspiracy to this day.

You don't want to dishonor their sacrifice? But you are claiming that Flight 93 was shot down by our own fighters, instead of the passengers trying to retake it.

Sir, you DO INDEED dishonor all those who fell that day- and you dishonor the military which I proudly serve. I wonder if the survivors in the NYPD and NY Fire Department would view you as "honoring" them by your outrageous slanders..

[Predicto]

"And not to dishonor those who died that day."

You are a hypocrite par excellence.

You don't want to dishonor our heroic dead huh? But you claim that their Commander in Chief murdered them.

You don't want to dishonor our military dead? But you claim that at least SOME part of the military that they served was in on a plot to murder them, and is covering up the conspiracy to this day.

You don't want to dishonor their sacrifice? But you are claiming that Flight 93 was shot down by our own fighters, instead of the passengers trying to retake it.

Sir, you DO INDEED dishonor all those who fell that day- and you dishonor the military which I proudly serve. I wonder if the survivors in the NYPD and NY Fire Department would view you as "honoring" them by your outrageous slanders..

Dude, relax. Not everything is a slander of you and your service. The guy has theories that I think are wacko, but he is not insulting you or the United States of America by asking them.

Six years ago, when you and your friends were ripping Clinton a new one every single day, did you worry about whether you were dishonoring the Commander in Chief, and thereby dishonoring America? Of course not.

You were angry at Clinton for what you felt he was doing to our great country. People who question or criticize the current administration are no different, no matter how wack their ideas. Show some respect for someone else's views than your own.

[vinva]

"And not to dishonor those who died that day."

You are a hypocrite par excellence.

You don't want to dishonor our heroic dead huh? But you claim that their Commander in Chief murdered them.

You don't want to dishonor our military dead? But you claim that at least SOME part of the military that they served was in on a plot to murder them, and is covering up the conspiracy to this day.

You don't want to dishonor their sacrifice? But you are claiming that Flight 93 was shot down by our own fighters, instead of the passengers trying to retake it.

Sir, you DO INDEED dishonor all those who fell that day- and you dishonor the military which I proudly serve. I wonder if the survivors in the NYPD and NY Fire Department would view you as "honoring" them by your outrageous slanders..

Come on man...you are overreacting a little bit here. I am also in the military (Navy to be exact) and am struggling to see where your rage is coming from.

Even if the miltary did shoot down flight 93 (I really don't think they did, but will all the confusion that day it wouldn't have surprised me at the time) it would have been the right move...better them than the Capitol building and the many more people inside.

As for his other "outrageous slanders" I agree that they are reprehensible, but they are just the product of a bored geek with an overactive imagination, so chill out a little and learn to laugh at idiots instead of letting them get you all worked up.

[Air Force Cane]

There is a big difference between disagreeing with someone politically, and someone calling your Commander in Chief a murderer of 3,000 Americans.

This country is very blase about language, "oh, it is just a disagreement". But even in another post on this very own thread he stated that a small minority of military officers knew about this conspiracy and are keeping it quiet.

If it doesn't bother you that someone is calling your own military leadership a bunch of homicidal murderers and liars- well that is your right. But you are a lot different than most of the officers I know.

[PleaseBlitz]

Dude, relax. Not everything is a slander of you and your service. The guy has theories that I think are wacko, but he is not insulting you or the United States of America by asking them.

Six years ago, when you and your friends were ripping Clinton a new one every single day, did you worry about whether you were dishonoring the Commander in Chief, and thereby dishonoring America? Of course not.

You were angry at Clinton for what you felt he was doing to our great country. People who question or criticize the current administration are no different, no matter how wack their ideas. Show some respect for someone else's views than your own.

Its gonna get worse and worse as time goes on. The next Democrat in the White House will be dodging impeachment charges from day 1. Its sad and counterproductive. I blame Rush and Hannity and Franken and Moore, and all these people that polarize Americans for a living.

[Baculus]

Baculus sure has tons of proof. For every engineer or scientist or expert we can produce which completely rips apart any theory he can come up with, he has um, a bunch of guys wearing tin foil hats from the internet.

Oh please, Westbrook36. At least some of the other posters who do not agree with me has provided bits of information that is useful. The only thing you can offer is another "tin foil hat" post. Wow - amazing; I've never heard that before!

Just be happy someone else is being hated on other than you. :-P

[vinva]

There is a big difference between disagreeing with someone politically, and someone calling your Commander in Chief a murderer of 3,000 Americans.

This country is very blase about language, "oh, it is just a disagreement". But even in another post on this very own thread he stated that a small minority of military officers knew about this conspiracy and are keeping it quiet.

If it doesn't bother you that someone is calling your own military leadership a bunch of homicidal murderers and liars- well that is your right. But you are a lot different than most of the officers I know.

First off, let's not get all high and mighty here. I'm willing to bet (based solely on the few posts I've seen of yours on here) that you had some not so nice words for our last commander in chief...was it not slander then?

And once again you are just giving this guy too much credit. You're just giving him exactly what he wants when he makes statements like that...responses based on pure emotion. He can argue with those...he can't argue with fact.

[vinva]

Ooooooh, Baculus is back. Answer my question first:

What possible reason could the administration have for doing this?

[Baculus]

Did you read the Popular Mechanics article (linked earlier) which completely debunks what you are still contending. Are you the voice from that google video? You seem to just keep regurgitating the same talking points.

Yes, I did. And did you read my post with an article that debunked many of their points?

No, I doubt it. Why bother to read what I post - no one else does, which is why I tend to repeat myself. One post at a time...

[TradeTheBeal!]

There is a big difference between disagreeing with someone politically, and someone calling your Commander in Chief a murderer of 3,000 Americans.

This country is very blase about language, "oh, it is just a disagreement". But even in another post on this very own thread he stated that a small minority of military officers knew about this conspiracy and are keeping it quiet.

If it doesn't bother you that someone is calling your own military leadership a bunch of homicidal murderers and liars- well that is your right. But you are a lot different than most of the officers I know.

I think that the word "murderer" is out of place in this discussion. It's primary definition invokes the actions of one person against another. In this context, it's use is inflammatory. Those responsible for 9/11, directly and indirectly, aren't murderers - killers, destroyers, terrorists, or my choice, soldiers..yes - but not murderers. I don't believe our forces in Iraq can be called murderers either, despite the large amount of people they have killed - far, far more than 3,000!

[vinva]

Yes, I did. And did you read my post with an article that debunked many of their points?

No, I doubt it. Why bother to read what I post - no one else does, which is why I tend to repeat myself. One post at a time...

And hey guys, don't forget, his is better because it came from a conspiracy website!!!

[smashmowf]

The poll is flawed and does not represent the arguement that has evolved in this thread it only represents your biased opinion...personal need to disrepect anyone that does not have an opinion that mirrors yours.....no matter what anyone says you twist it into saying "HE called George Bush a murderer"....no body continues to type that phrase but you..nobody is arguing that specific phrase but you...and by you, you know who I'm talking to.

[Baculus]

The references arguing in favor of a conspiracy are hardly credible in comparison.

Actually, there are experts in their field that have questioned the official story. The issue is similiar to this thread: They are either shouted down, ridiculed, or ignored. And it is the the point that many of the days events have been distorted in the popular memory of the day's events. Look at this thread: Do you really, REALLY think an honest debate about the subject is possible with many people? Even making the SUGGESTION, above and beyond accusations against the current adminstration being involved, that the official story is not quite on target will lead to folks trying to scream you down. People don't WANT a debate into this subject, or you are "dishonering" the dead, or just a nut. It is not expected that everyone is going to react kindly to some of the suggestions, but it becomes absurd at the responses to the mere suggestion of a different story to the officially offered explanation for the day's events.

This subject has too much emotion for folks to be able to control their emotion over their thinking.

[Kilmer17]

Bac, a simple and straightforward question.

Who/what do you think made the towers fall on 9/11?

[vinva]

Actually, there are experts in their field that have questioned the official story. The issue is similiar to this thread: They are either shouted down, ridiculed, or ignored. And it is the the point that many of the days events have been distorted in the popular memory of the day's events. Look at this thread: Do you really, REALLY think an honest debate about the subject is possible with many people? Even making the SUGGESTION, above and beyond accusations against the current adminstration being involved, that the official story is not quite on target will lead to folks trying to scream you down. People don't WANT a debate into this subject, or you are "dishonering" the dead, or just a nut. It is not expected that everyone is going to react kindly to some of the suggestions, but it becomes absurd at the responses to the mere suggestion of a different story to the officially offered explanation for the day's events.

This subject has too much emotion for folks to be able to control their emotion over their thinking.

No...that's not the case. That is what you want it to be so you can continue to play the persecuted truth-seeker, but the reality is is that if there was one ounce of possible truth to this it would be all over the news. It's not.

[Baculus]

See, this is your problem...I don't have to produce any evidence because I am not the one making outrageous claims. You are the one who must prove something because you are the one with the multiple conspiracy theories.

And Baculus, one thing I would really like to know that I forgot to ask yesterday: It this went down as you say it did, what was the governments motivation?

Usually if I post something, no matter how valid, it is merely discredited by virtue of the subject matter. So it is a ridiculous circle of "post something...oh, that is bunk. Post something...Oh, that is bunk." Why ask for me to post something if you know you are going to reject it even before I hit the post button? It is not an honest intellectual exercise.

I have offered, on more than one occasion, information regarding this subject. The issue is that it will never be enough. Usually what happens is that I post something, and no one either responds to it, or I have Westbrook36 type responses that show how little it really matters what I post, because the main focus is simply to react...to me, not the material at hand.

And, btw, Vivni, why do you not make the same demands of our government? They have produced virtually little evidence to support their theory, and yet you unthinkingly buy it. Even before expert opinions had weighed in on the matter...You want all the evidence from me, but not the those who are explaining what happen. It is just odd. And it makes it really difficult to produce "hard" evidence since that hard evidence (such as airplane parts) is impossible to inspect.

It is this exact lack of evidence that struck as wrong and started for me to look into other explanations.

[Baculus]

How many skyscrapers had tens of thousands of gallons of high grade avation fuel burning inside of them as the basis for the fire?

Oh, why am I even bothering.

Aviation fuel tends to burn faster, which is why, after some time, you even saw people waving out of the hole where one of the aircraft had struck. Also, have you ever listened to the recording of one of the firefighter teams that was in one of the WTCs? (I forget which one...) They only discussed smaller fires, and it was obvious that a large confliguration was not burning. Now, granted, it is possible that the fast burning fuel could have caused the damage very quickly, led lead to further structural weaking. That is possible and what has been suggested. But the fires weren't not as active and as large as it has been suggested.

[elkabong82]

Ooooooh, Baculus is back. Answer my question first:

What possible reason could the administration have for doing this?

The possible motivation could be that now the administration can use almost endless military spending, spending that goes to companies these same members hold stock in and have ties w/ their CEO's. On the curtails of 9/11 we go into Iraq. Once we had initially taken Iraq, billions of dollars in contracts were given out, but not on an open market. The contractors were preselected, and Halliburton has their hands in too. Bush administration has used 9/11, or has tried to use 9/11, as the excuse for every military action they take. During the reelection of Bush and congressmen, they used 9/11 to label Democrats unpatriotic b/c they didn't vote for the Patriot Act or the war. They even ousted Max Cleeland by saying he was unpatriotic, and this guy is a Vietnam vet who lost his legs and an arm in Vietnam. Also, in Iraq, there have been many reports surfacing over the fact that the money being used to help control the country through citizen training, aid, etc., is left unchecked and unregulated, and billions of dollars have been left "mysteriously unaccounted for". Gas companies, during the phase when gas reached $3 a gallon, or close to it, it was reported that the oil company Exxon posted the highest profit record in a fiscal quarter for a company ever. Their excuse, w/ the other gas companies, for price hike was b/c the prices were being jacked up due to the war, etc. War-time is the most prfitable time in America, and a lot of money has been made off of war since 9/11. War that was spoon fed to the Americans during a time when everyone was scared and angry. Governments do mistreat their citizens, and anything is possoble. Hitler burned down his own party's building and blamed it on the Jewish people. Stalin murdered millions. Just b/c we live in a democracy, doesn't mean our leaders aren't capable of this.

[ashburnskinsfan]

Aviation fuel tends to burn faster, which is why, after some time, you even saw people waving out of the hole where one of the aircraft had struck. Also, have you ever listened to the recording of one of the firefighter teams that was in one of the WTCs? (I forget which one...) They only discussed smaller fires, and it was obvious that a large confliguration was not burning. Now, granted, it is possible that the fast burning fuel could have caused the damage very quickly, led lead to further structural weaking. That is possible and what has been suggested. But the fires weren't not as active and as large as it has been suggested.

The fires looked pretty bad to me.

http://www.libertynews.org.nyud.net:8090/wtc/DSC00006.html

There are many more like this showing widespread flames. As discussed by structural experts, the whole building didn't have to be burning to cause a collapse.

I would also disagree that credible experts have argued that the WTC collapses could not have been caused by the impact of large airliners packed with aviation fuel.

[elkabong82]

When someone is flying an airplane they are reliant solely upon their instrument panel. Looking out the window, everything looks the same. If your instrument panel malfunctions, you are pretty much screwed. This same reason, if you watch any specials on the Bermuda Triangle on Discovery, is why a lot of the plane crash in the triangle. Their is some kind of magnetism in the triangle that can mess up instrument panels, even compasses. Flight simulators are nothing like the real thing, only actual practice can prepare you for the real thing. This is why any commercial airline pilot is highly trained and certified. The 9/11 pilots supposedly couldn't even manage flying small, passenger jets (Cessna's) over an airstrip, a clearly visible ground reference point. Two of the pilots were kicked out of that flight school b/c of how terrible they were. How is it they hijacked these planes, got into the ****pit, had no point of reference, didn't know exactly where they were since the plane took off, they had never seen those insrument panels before or been in a ****pit like that before, yet somehow are able to turn the planes around, fly back and hit their targets perfectly? Keeping a plane level is hard enough, but amateurs who literally had no clue how to fly anything of that size and complexity did what they did? There is no way those pilots were able to figure out where they were, and figure where to go.

[visionary]

The possible motivation could be that now the administration can use almost endless military spending, spending that goes to companies these same members hold stock in and have ties w/ their CEO's. On the curtails of 9/11 we go into Iraq. Once we had initially taken Iraq, billions of dollars in contracts were given out, but not on an open market. The contractors were preselected, and Halliburton has their hands in too. Bush administration has used 9/11, or has tried to use 9/11, as the excuse for every military action they take. During the reelection of Bush and congressmen, they used 9/11 to label Democrats unpatriotic b/c they didn't vote for the Patriot Act or the war. They even ousted Max Cleeland by saying he was unpatriotic, and this guy is a Vietnam vet who lost his legs and an arm in Vietnam. Also, in Iraq, there have been many reports surfacing over the fact that the money being used to help control the country through citizen training, aid, etc., is left unchecked and unregulated, and billions of dollars have been left "mysteriously unaccounted for". Gas companies, during the phase when gas reached $3 a gallon, or close to it, it was reported that the oil company Exxon posted the highest profit record in a fiscal quarter for a company ever. Their excuse, w/ the other gas companies, for price hike was b/c the prices were being jacked up due to the war, etc. War-time is the most prfitable time in America, and a lot of money has been made off of war since 9/11. War that was spoon fed to the Americans during a time when everyone was scared and angry. Governments do mistreat their citizens, and anything is possoble. Hitler burned down his own party's building and blamed it on the Jewish people. Stalin murdered millions. Just b/c we live in a democracy, doesn't mean our leaders aren't capable of this.

It would take more than our leaders to do this. Do you really think this was done by our government and went along with by countless other people.

Do you honestly think that the people in charge of this country are capable of this sort of thing? The people in Congress, the people whose loved ones died and yet who have been closely involved wtih the administration the whole time? If you think that and you actually are just sitting around right now and accepting this as normal and just regular government business...I don't know what to say.

I mean these people in charge are not some sort of otherwordly demons or mass murdering monsters, they're just people like us, do you think most people would think that doing something like that would be ok? This isn't post WWI Germany or Communist Russia, and I don't see how anyone can make that kind of a comparison seriously. We're pretty educated people here in the US and pretty damn enlightened too. We might have our biases and hatreds, but do you honestly think that so many people in our government would just sit around and be ok with this sort of a thing if they knew about it?

If you think so, then maybe you need to re-think your view on these people and possibly some other things as well.

[Kilmer17]

So what do you think happened?

[Baculus]

You are a hypocrite par excellence.

You don't want to dishonor our heroic dead huh? But you claim that their Commander in Chief murdered them.

You don't want to dishonor our military dead? But you claim that at least SOME part of the military that they served was in on a plot to murder them, and is covering up the conspiracy to this day.

You don't want to dishonor their sacrifice? But you are claiming that Flight 93 was shot down by our own fighters, instead of the passengers trying to retake it.

Sir, you DO INDEED dishonor all those who fell that day- and you dishonor the military which I proudly serve. I wonder if the survivors in the NYPD and NY Fire Department would view you as "honoring" them by your outrageous slanders.

You don't know how they would view me, sir. And it has been suggested by those on the right that 9-11 was Clinton's fault. I heard this over and over again. I made my feelings clear and honest.

There are shoot orders for a reason - if the airforce felt that a civilian flight had to be engaged and shot down, then it was determined for a reason. After all, this is FAA and NORAD policy. If it is used in such a situation, and I suggest that this may have happened, then I do not see the reason to get upset. After all, it is a much better and inspiring story if the passengers died while trying to retake the plane as opposed to the adminstration explaining that they had to shoot down a civilian plane. Heck, look at the Tillman situation: That is exactly what may have happened as far as the official story. (Hero in war vs shot by friendly fire.)

I dishonor them? What about the current administration that stonewalled at every turn to prevent an investigation from happening? And then suggesting that a mere $15 million was enough money to investigate the most horrendous terrorist attack ever on this nation. And then, not even producing an investigation that answered some of the questions that are often asked regarding the day's events. My questions aren't dishonoring them - you do not have all the claim to "honor," Cane. To ME, trying to find the whole truth to the matter is honoring them.

Your way is not the only way.