Charlie Sheen: US Govt. committed 9/11...

[Baculus]

This country is very blase about language, "oh, it is just a disagreement". But even in another post on this very own thread he stated that a small minority of military officers knew about this conspiracy and are keeping it quiet.

Let me ask you Cane - ever heard of Operation Northwoods? I posted this earlier, but I bet you didn't read it. This is the plan that was developed some of OUR military leaders to create terrorist cells, murder Americans, and even possibly kill John Glenn, all with the objective to create a pretext to invade Cuba.

http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/northwoods.html

And you are 35 - did you watch any of the Iran-Contra hearings? And the involvement with military, DEA, and CIA agents being involved with the cocaine trade? I made a long post about this subject a while ago, and few could really say much about the subject, especially since posted statements by those who were involved and witnessed this.

No one is immunue from bad apples.

[Kilmer17]

Bac, not sure if your just ignoring this,so I will repost.

What do YOU think happened? And why?

[Baculus]

Ooooooh, Baculus is back. Answer my question first:

What possible reason could the administration have for doing this?

There have different proposed reasons. One reason that was actual proposed by a former military officer is that 9-11 was a coup attempt.

Of course, the pretext for war is another reason. Also, some folks feel that the current administration thought radicial action was needed to change the course of this country, and the attack was decided.

I won't even say the ultra-crazy reasons that have been proposed.

[elkabong82]

It would take more than our leaders to do this. Do you really think this was done by our government and went along with by countless other people.

Do you honestly think that the people in charge of this country are capable of this sort of thing? The people in Congress, the people whose loved ones died and yet who have been closely involved wtih the administration the whole time? If you think that and you actually are just sitting around right now and accepting this as normal and just regular government business...I don't know what to say.

I mean these people in charge are not some sort of otherwordly demons or mass murdering monsters, they're just people like us, do you think most people would think that doing something like that would be ok? This isn't post WWI Germany or Communist Russia, and I don't see how anyone can make that kind of a comparison seriously. We're pretty educated people here in the US and pretty damn enlightened too. We might have our biases and hatreds, but do you honestly think that so many people in our government would just sit around and be ok with this sort of a thing if they knew about it?

If you think so, then maybe you need to re-think your view on these people and possibly some other things as well.

I understand where you are coming from, but people are capable of anything. Germany was riddled w/ depression and poverty, then Hitler came along and restored the country. He was even named Time Magazine's man of the year for doing so. Nobody saw the direction in which he was going. Remember though, Hitler was elected. Just b/c we live in a newer time doesn't mean people can't be taken advantage of. I don't have trouble believing certain leaders are capable b/c many of our leaders are so far detached from real life and real people. Many of these leaders grew up w/ rich family and friends, went to elite private schools, and stayed within their own circles in college and in the business world. Unless it is in front of a camera, most of these leaders never have any dealings w/ the outside world. So yes, I believe that someone who has no rweal clue about the everyday person, has every advantage over that person, can easily grow to hate or depsise those evryday people they don't understand. Stereotypes and racism, teasing and bullying all stem from people not understanding. fear and anger stem from people not understanding. Hitler's dog loved him, so humanizing someone does not put them above anything. Dahmer's neighbor's thought he was a quite, but nice guy. The BTK killer's neighbors, even his own family, couldn't belive who he really was. The leaders you and I know are the ones they let the cameras show you. We don't really know these people, and they don't really know us.

[elkabong82]

There are many scholars at Brigham Young University from all fields of science, etc. who are also trying to bring to light the 9/11 conspiracy. These are all intelligent people w/ expertise and experience in different areas. Are they not credible sources?

[Baculus]

Bac, not sure if your just ignoring this,so I will repost.

What do YOU think happened? And why?

Sorry, I am worry at the same time, so replying one post at a time. Heh.

I actually posted a previous post about this subject. It is short since it would take time just to post about the first proposed reason, is that 9-11 was an abort coup to seize power in the United States.

According to some, the Flight 93 was headed to Washington - it's target, the Captital Building. Once Congress was gravely wounded, then the Presidency or the Shadow Government would take control. Sounds crazy? Well, oddly enough, about four months before 9-11, the pilot episode for The Lone Gunman, an X-files spinoff, had a plote in which some government conspirators had a plan to crash an airliner into the World Trade Center to take power in this country through a military coup and martial law. Sounds crazy, eh?

http://killtown.911review.org/lonegunmen.html

[ashburnskinsfan]

There are many scholars at Brigham Young University from all fields of science, etc. who are also trying to bring to light the 9/11 conspiracy. These are all intelligent people w/ expertise and experience in different areas. Are they not credible sources?

I wouldn't consider BYU a top-rate university, but what have they published about this?

[rincewind]

Sorry, I am worry at the same time, so replying one post at a time. Heh.

I actually posted a previous post about this subject. It is short since it would take time just to post about the first proposed reason, is that 9-11 was an abort coup to seize power in the United States.

According to some, the Flight 93 was headed to Washington - it's target, the Captital Building. Once Congress was gravely wounded, then the Presidency or the Shadow Government would take control. Sounds crazy? Well, oddly enough, about four months before 9-11, the pilot episode for The Lone Gunman, an X-files spinoff, had a plote in which some government conspirators had a plan to crash an airliner into the World Trade Center to take power in this country through a military coup and martial law. Sounds crazy, eh?

http://killtown.911review.org/lonegunmen.html

So you're basic this not an X-files episode, but an X-files spinoff show?

[Kilmer17]

I get that Bac.

Im not wondering what OTHER people have claimed, or OTHER proof.

I want to know what YOU think happened, how, and why.

[elkabong82]

Hijackers take planes. Land them around Ohio valley. Send the new planes up controlled by remote (possible since the 60's) w/ clone transponders. Crash them into the buildings, then once the top of the building begins to lean over, detonate the explosives to demolish the buildings to avoid any other collateral damage.

FAA lost 3 of 4 planes over Ohio valley, those planes resurfaced 15 minutes later, much closer to their final targets. Passengers retook the 4th plane, it was shot down.

A week before 9/11, the WTC was being renovated to fix elevator shafts and wiring in the building. Bush denies any prior knowledge, which, from the 9/11 Commission report shows, is a lie. Bush immediately tells people not to tolerate any conspiracy theories, and orders the media not to show the footage on the news anymore.

*Note: A B-1 bomber flew into the Empire State building in the 40's, where fuel dumped out and burned everything. A much larger plane, w/ much more fuel, yet that building didn't collapse.

[Baculus]

No...that's not the case. That is what you want it to be so you can continue to play the persecuted truth-seeker, but the reality is is that if there was one ounce of possible truth to this it would be all over the news. It's not.

Oh yeah - right! I actually get more satisfaction if someone says, "Hey, that is interesting, I didn't know that" instead of contentious arguments back and forth. Yeah, you sure have me figured out.

And do you think it takes an "ounce of truth" before it is all over the news? There have been many ignored news stories that took a great deal of time before they appears on the news. Before Watergate broke via the Washington Post and Bob Woodward, who knows how long it would have taken this story to see the light of day (and thanks to Deep Throat).

BTW, do you know what is the Downing Street Memo?

[elkabong82]

I wouldn't consider BYU a top-rate university, but what have they published about this?

http://scholarsfortruth.org/

[Baculus]

So you're basic this not an X-files episode, but an X-files spinoff show?

Yeah, it was a short-lived X-files spinoff. It was those dudes, the Lone Gunman, that sometimes helped Mulder and Scully.

[Predicto]

*Note: A B-1 bomber flew into the Empire State building in the 40's, where fuel dumped out and burned everything. A much larger plane, w/ much more fuel, yet that building didn't collapse.

Link please.

[Baculus]

I get that Bac.

Im not wondering what OTHER people have claimed, or OTHER proof.

I want to know what YOU think happened, how, and why.

My gut instinct? If any organization conducted such a plan, such an absolute scheme, then a coup would be a good reason for it. Absolute control - basically our Reichstag fire.

[vinva]

The possible motivation could be that now the administration can use almost endless military spending, spending that goes to companies these same members hold stock in and have ties w/ their CEO's. On the curtails of 9/11 we go into Iraq. Once we had initially taken Iraq, billions of dollars in contracts were given out, but not on an open market. The contractors were preselected, and Halliburton has their hands in too. Bush administration has used 9/11, or has tried to use 9/11, as the excuse for every military action they take. During the reelection of Bush and congressmen, they used 9/11 to label Democrats unpatriotic b/c they didn't vote for the Patriot Act or the war. They even ousted Max Cleeland by saying he was unpatriotic, and this guy is a Vietnam vet who lost his legs and an arm in Vietnam. Also, in Iraq, there have been many reports surfacing over the fact that the money being used to help control the country through citizen training, aid, etc., is left unchecked and unregulated, and billions of dollars have been left "mysteriously unaccounted for". Gas companies, during the phase when gas reached $3 a gallon, or close to it, it was reported that the oil company Exxon posted the highest profit record in a fiscal quarter for a company ever. Their excuse, w/ the other gas companies, for price hike was b/c the prices were being jacked up due to the war, etc. War-time is the most prfitable time in America, and a lot of money has been made off of war since 9/11. War that was spoon fed to the Americans during a time when everyone was scared and angry. Governments do mistreat their citizens, and anything is possoble. Hitler burned down his own party's building and blamed it on the Jewish people. Stalin murdered millions. Just b/c we live in a democracy, doesn't mean our leaders aren't capable of this.

9/11 and the Iraq war have not been good for everybody in the defense industry. In fact, the large defense contracting companies...Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, Northrop Grumman, Boeing, etc...have seen some business go away as major procurement/development contracts...things like the Joint Strike Fighter, DD(X), the Littoral Combat Ship, the Tomahawk missile, etc...get money taken away by them to fund the war effort, which is largely being conducted with existing equipment. The days of this countries industial complex having to ramp up to support a war are over.

[Sinclair]

*Note: A B-1 bomber flew into the Empire State building in the 40's, where fuel dumped out and burned everything. A much larger plane, w/ much more fuel, yet that building didn't collapse.

wow, i didnt know that. very, VERY interesting post it really makes one think(at least me anyway) thanks for that post!

[smashmowf]

9/11 and the Iraq war have not been good for everybody in the defense industry. In fact, the large defense contracting companies...Lockheed Martin, Raytheon, Northrop Grumman, Boeing, etc...have seen some business go away as major procurement/development contracts...things like the Joint Strike Fighter, DD(X), the Littoral Combat Ship, the Tomahawk missile, etc...get money taken away by them to fund the war effort, which is largely being conducted with existing equipment. The days of this countries industial complex having to ramp up to support a war are over.

And what about the company Cheney has associations with?

[vinva]

Oh yeah - right! I actually get more satisfaction if someone says, "Hey, that is interesting, I didn't know that" instead of contentious arguments back and forth. Yeah, you sure have me figured out.

And do you think it takes an "ounce of truth" before it is all over the news? There have been many ignored news stories that took a great deal of time before they appears on the news. Before Watergate broke via the Washington Post and Bob Woodward, who knows how long it would have taken this story to see the light of day (and thanks to Deep Throat).

BTW, do you know what is the Downing Street Memo?

Even more conspiracies!

And as for the Downing Street memo, I once again refer you to my favorite Simpsons quote:

Judge: Mr. Hutz w've been in here for four hours. Do you have any evidence at all?

Hutz: Well, Your Honor. We've plenty of hearsay and conjecture. Those are kinds of evidence.

[elkabong82]

Link please.

http://history1900s.about.com/od/1940s/a/empirecrash.htm

[ashburnskinsfan]

http://scholarsfortruth.org/

Thanks ... that list is a great service for high-school students considering which college to attend.

There are some serious conspiracy nutcases on that list including ones who think the moon landings were fake.

I asked about what they published on this. Let me try again more specifically ... what articles have they published in peer-reviewed journals on engineering or material science that support the case that large aircraft heavily laden with aviation fuel could not have caused the WTC collapse.

[Kilmer17]

Good grief.

B-1 bombers didnt start flying until the 1980s.

What he is referring to is this-

http://history1900s.about.com/od/1940s/a/empirecrash.htm

A B-25 bomber that weighs about 8 tons compared to a modern jetliner weighing almost 50. Not to mention the amount of fuel in the B-25 was about .5 percent of what was in the planes on 9/11.

It's also a different type of building.

[vinva]

And what about the company Cheney has associations with?

You're implying that they would conduct 9/11 just to help Halliburton?

Go take a look at the Fortune 500 list and look where Halliburton is compared to the major defense contractors...do you really think they would risk pissing off these guys just to help Cheney and his boys?

[elkabong82]

Even more conspiracies!

And as for the Downing Street memo, I once again refer you to my favorite Simpsons quote:

Judge: Mr. Hutz w've been in here for four hours. Do you have any evidence at all?

Hutz: Well, Your Honor. We've plenty of hearsay and conjecture. Those are kinds of evidence.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Downing_Street_memo

[visionary]

I understand where you are coming from, but people are capable of anything. Germany was riddled w/ depression and poverty, then Hitler came along and restored the country. He was even named Time Magazine's man of the year for doing so. Nobody saw the direction in which he was going. Remember though, Hitler was elected.

This country is nothing like Germany post WWI and to even compare the two is pretty silly.

Just b/c we live in a newer time doesn't mean people can't be taken advantage of. I don't have trouble believing certain leaders are capable b/c many of our leaders are so far detached from real life and real people. Many of these leaders grew up w/ rich family and friends, went to elite private schools, and stayed within their own circles in college and in the business world. Unless it is in front of a camera, most of these leaders never have any dealings w/ the outside world.

Wow, do you actually believe this? This is an exaggeration of magnificent proportions and really does a lot of people a disservice, not to mention making it sound like you think rich people are somehow abnormal. I think you have a somewhat warped view of what these people's lives are like.

So yes, I believe that someone who has no rweal clue about the everyday person, has every advantage over that person, can easily grow to hate or depsise those evryday people they don't understand. Stereotypes and racism, teasing and bullying all stem from people not understanding. fear and anger stem from people not understanding.

True, that fear and anger can stem from not understanding. But I don't think that cutting people off from the outside worl makes them capable of mass murder, and I don't think that there is anywhere near enough people if there are any at all, that are THAT corrupted in our government and outside of it for this conspiracy idea to make much sense.

Hitler's dog loved him, so humanizing someone does not put them above anything. Dahmer's neighbor's thought he was a quite, but nice guy. The BTK killer's neighbors, even his own family, couldn't belive who he really was. The leaders you and I know are the ones they let the cameras show you. We don't really know these people, and they don't really know us.

Dahmer, and the BTK killer also didn't live under the kind of media spotlight that those in our government live in today. And it was pretty obvious by the way that Hitler was a dangerous, nasty, even crazy fellow. Remember people had written him off as a nut before he came into power. He was never anywhere near as normal as those in power here. Actually even comparing people in our government to Hitler is just woefully irresponsible, especially since you made the refference to Max Cleeland yourself....