Mark Brunell vs. Patrick Ramsey: The Final Word

[AJ_Skins]

Right. So you show up in this thread.

AJ - Pat's gone. Deal with it. Move on. If you can't do that, then perhaps you should find a new home where your broken record antics will be tolerated.

I'm definitely not going to stay on this much longer here, but I'll say again, not that anyone will listen...what bothers me here is about Coach Gibbs. I think he made a bad decision from a football standpoint, but more importantly to me (I realize not to most fans), I think he willingly did serious and undeserved damage to a player's career for personal reasons, whether it be pride, or his relationship with Brunell, or some combination. That is very hard for me to accept, because I've been a Redskins fans since I was a kid, basically because of Joe Gibbs. I'll get over it though. I learned a long time ago that no human being is perfect. Gibbs is just that one childhood hero that's kind of hard to let go, I guess.

[The Batman]

I'm definitely not going to stay on this much longer here, but I'll say again, not that anyone will listen...what bothers me here is about Coach Gibbs. I think he made a bad decision from a football standpoint, but more importantly to me (I realize not to most fans), I think he willingly did serious and undeserved damage to a player's career for personal reasons, whether it be pride, or his relationship with Brunell, or some combination. That is very hard for me to accept, because I've been a Redskins fans since I was a kid, basically because of Joe Gibbs. I'll get over it though. I learned a long time ago that no human being is perfect. Gibbs is just that one childhood hero that's kind of hard to let go, I guess.

I thank God every day that you are not in charge of value judgments.

Ted Bundy raped and killed tens of women in Florida. He is a malicious, evil, and unworthy human being.

Ken Lay cheated thousands if not hundreds of thousands of retirees out of their 401k's to further his own profiteering and corporate success. He is a malicious, unworthy, and arguably evil human being.

Joe Gibbs placed Mark Brunell in for a quarterback that you so easily gloss over was INJURED AND UNABLE TO CLOSE THE GAME. He then made the determination that both Brunell is a better candidate and that the possibility is there that Ramsey was still hurt. We all know what happened after that. He would've been a damn fool to displace Brunell after that point. He is a good, just, and reasonable human being.

One of these is not like the others...

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[saskin]

I'm afraid that'll fall on deaf ears....

IN GIBBS WE TRUST

[The Batman]

Brunell did only slightly better on a greatly improved team in 2005 than Ramsey did on an inferior team in 2004. That's based on actual numbers, not projections.

No.

Absolutely wrong.

Ramsey started 7 games in 2004. So, based on actual numbers, we can select 7 games from 2005 for Brunell to have started. Because all units have to be the same for statistics to be accurately measured.

Let's take 5 games from this year, shall we?

10/23 SF W 52-17

12/18 DAL W 35-7

10/16 @KC L 21-28

10/09 @DEN L 19-21

10/02 SEA W 20-17

12/24 NYG W 35-20

12/04 @STL W 24-9

Go to NFL.com and look at Brunell's player card for those games. Then, tell me the numbers from the 7 games I chose are better than Ramsey's from the 7 games you were forced to choose. Because if you do, you will be a bold faced liar.

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[AJ_Skins]

I thank God every day that you are not in charge of value judgments.

Ted Bundy raped and killed tens of women in Florida. He is a malicious, evil, and unworthy human being.

Ken Lay cheated thousands if not hundreds of thousands of retirees out of their 401k's to further his own profiteering and corporate success. He is a malicious, unworthy, and arguably evil human being.

Joe Gibbs placed Mark Brunell in for a quarterback that you so easily gloss over was INJURED AND UNABLE TO CLOSE THE GAME. He then made the determination that both Brunell is a better candidate and that the possibility is there that Ramsey was still hurt. We all know what happened after that. He would've been a damn fool to displace Brunell after that point. He is a good, just, and reasonable human being.

One of these is not like the others...

:logo:

About halfway through 2004, when Gibbs was sticking with Brunell beyond any kind of sane reasoning, he basically got booed into playing Ramsey by the fans at FedEx. I don't think he expected something like that to happen when he came back. I think the anger and wounded pride he felt over that incident gnawed at him for 9 months, and what he did to Ramsey was really his way of lashing out at those fans. Something like, "I'll show them, dammit!".

I think his personal admiration for Brunell, and the fact that he brought him in at an excessive price and feels a need to justify it, are what led to the problem in the first place, and what continues to be the problem.

[AJ_Skins]

Ramsey started 5 games in 2004.

Ramsey started 7 games in 2004. Move along.

[Dirk Diggler]

5 TD's and 0 Interceptions and a boatload of yards (I believe 480+) against Tennessee and Philly as a rookie in the Spurrier offense. Tennessee and Philly both played in Conference title games following the '01 regular seasons. And that only required me to think on that question for about five seconds. It's also worth noting that Ramsey was behind center when the Redskins beat the Cowboys for the first time in five years (after 10 consecutive defeats), something Brad Johnson, Trent Green, Gus Frerotte, Tony Banks, Jeff George, and the Gator Boys Spurrier brought in failed to do during that stretch).

Actually, you probably should have thought about it a little longer because Tennessee and Philly were in conf title games after the 2002 season.

I agree that Ramsey was brilliant in the Tennessee game - his first as a pro. While he did post nice stats against Philly late in the season, it was against a soft defense in the second half of a game where we were down about 4 TDs.

[The Batman]

About halfway through 2004, when Gibbs was sticking with Brunell beyond any kind sane reasoning, he basically got booed into playing Ramsey by the fans at FedEx. I don't think he expected something like that to happen when he came back. I think the anger and wounded pride he felt over that incident gnawed at him for 9 months, and what he did to Ramsey was really his way of lashing out at those fans. Something like, "I'll show them, dammit!".

I think his personal admiration for Brunell, and the fact that he brought him in at an excessive price and feels a need to justify it, are what led to the problem in the first place, and what continues to be the problem.

The critical flaw in your logic is that you assume that Gibbs has a deep and easily bruised sense of pride.

You see, assuming that he has this pride is saying that he feels he has something to prove.

Joe Jackson Gibbs has nothing to prove. I repeat, Joe Jackson Gibbs has NOTHING TO PROVE. He doesn't have to justify a damn thing for you or anyone else.

He has won 3, count them, 3 Lombardi Trophies. He has taken 3 different teams to the pinnacle of professional football. He has fielded winning teams very often and is in the top 3 in win percentage among professional football coaches ever.

Joe Gibbs needs not worry about pride because he has already accomplished probably more than you or I ever will. Therefore, he has nothing to prove and will not be browbeat into anything by anyone. He will consistently do what is best for the team, and he did what was best in this instance. Get over it.

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[AJ_Skins]

Last year in the offseason, Greg Blache said, and I quote, "Joe Gibbs is the most prideful coach I've ever worked for". I remember that quote very clearly, because it stuck out to me sharply when I heard it.

[SouthernCali Skins]

"I'll show them, dammit!".

:laugh:

[The Batman]

Ramsey started 7 games in 2004. Move along.

My mistake, but the argument remains the same and equally valid.

I'll move along when my arguments cease to effectively counter yours. Which, up to this point, has not happened.

Make my day.

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[ArmchairRedskin]

About halfway through 2004, when Gibbs was sticking with Brunell beyond any kind sane reasoning, he basically got booed into playing Ramsey by the fans at FedEx. I don't think he expected something like that to happen when he came back. I think the anger and wounded pride he felt over that incident gnawed at him for 9 months, and what he did to Ramsey was really his way of lashing out at those fans. Something like, "I'll show them, dammit!".

I think his personal admiration for Brunell, and the fact that he brought him in at an excessive price and feels a need to justify it, are what led to the problem in the first place, and what continues to be the problem.

Or maybe Ramsey performed at a lower level with better talent in the preseason than did Brunell and even though that fact was apparent, Gibbs went ahead and kept his promise to make Ramsey the starter.

However, after seeing how skittish Ramsey was in the first game, coach came to his senses and played the best QB on the roster. Maybe that's how it went down.

Joe Gibbs would never let personal feelings get in the way of fielding the best man for the job. He loves the Redskins and it's fanbase too much for that nonsense.

[The Batman]

Last year in the offseason, Greg Blache said, and I quote, "Joe Gibbs is the most prideful coach I've ever worked for". I remember that quote very clearly, because it stuck out to me sharply when I heard it.

I remember TK saying last year in the offseason that AJ_Skins was the worst poster he had ever seen in his tenure on Extremeskins.

See, I can make unsubstantiated claims too. Get me a link.

:logo:

[AJ_Skins]

Or maybe Ramsey performed at a lower level with better talent in the preseason than did Brunell and even though that fact was apparent, Gibbs went ahead and kept his promise to make Ramsey the starter.

However, after seeing how skittish Ramsey was in the first game, coach came to his senses and played the best QB on the roster. Maybe that's how it went down.

Joe Gibbs would never let personal feelings get in the way of fielding the best man for the job. He loves the Redskins and it's fanbase too much for that nonsense.

I wish I could agree with you.

[ArmchairRedskin]

I wish I could agree with you.

I'm sorry your Ramsey mancrush won't allow it.

[The Batman]

I'm sorry your Ramsey mancrush won't allow it.

INCINERATION!

YOU'RE THE INSULT MASTER!

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[AJ_Skins]

I remember TK saying last year in the offseason that AJ_Skins was the worst poster he had ever seen in his tenure on Extremeskins.

See, I can make unsubstantiated claims too. Get me a link.

:logo:

It was last summer, and I'm pretty sure it was in the Washington Post. I'm pretty sure finding that one blurb in the thousands of articles the Post has put out in the past year would be next to impossible, but I'm not making it up. Somebody asked him the typical "what's it like to work for Joe Gibbs" question, and that was his response.

As for TK, I'm sure he has said that, and worse.

[AJ_Skins]

I'm sorry your Ramsey mancrush won't allow it.

Yeah, totally invalidated everything I've said with that one.

[The Batman]

It was last summer, and I'm pretty sure it was in the Washington Post. I'm pretty sure finding that one blurb in the thousands of articles the Post has put out in the past year would be next to impossible, but I'm not making it up. Somebody asked him the typical "what's it like to work for Joe Gibbs" question, and that was his response.

As for TK, I'm sure he has said that, and worse.

Regardless, I think the quote is out of context. Taking pride in your work and "being prideful" are two different things. Taking pride in your work means doing the best you can and being proud of the result. That's what Gibbs does. Being prideful is one of the seven deadly sins and involves envy, jealousy, and ignoring the suggestions of others for your own stubborn, selfish gain. Something Gibbs has never done.

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[ArmchairRedskin]

Yeah, totally invalidated everything I've said with that one.

What's to invalidate. You're pouting because Gibbs didn't play your guy last year and now he's gone to a different team. This whole thread is pointless. A nice time waster for me, but in reality, it has no bearing on anything. You just like the attention this view (however contrived) of yours brings you. That's obvious.

[Jumbo]

Ramsey started 7 games in 2004. Move along.

Of all the irony I've seen on this board, you telling someone else to move along is the pinnacle.

AJ, when you bring up your feelings about Gibbs "stabbing Pat in the back" and similar expressions you are getting to the heart of the matter. Talking about the actual football performance issues has become the decoy.

Its not that you are driven by an emotional reaction no matter how much you try to present it as objective and accurate analysis, at which you do fail 80% of the time, that has been so bizarre for some time.

Its not the numerous times you've hurled sometimes vicious invective against people who disagree, though you've relatively calm in that regard recently.

Nor is it just the times you more casually insult or dismiss many, many others' intellectual capacity or analytical observational skills though they have generally proven track records as being knowledgeable and respectable. (Almost) everyone else is drinking the kool-aid, indeed.

It’s the fact that you are SO disturbed emotionally about this one football matter that you have posted hundreds and hundreds of times on it. That’s the thing that should be sending you a red flag no matter how big a deal a favorite yet-to-make-it-big QB leaving a team is to someone.

I would say with fair comfort of certainty, that there is no member of Pat's family, or his wife, or his best friend that would be like this. All but a very few people here have said they really liked Ramsey and wish him nothing but the best, even knowing there would be a couple of obsessive posters here who would be insufferable over any good fortune to befall Pat.

You have remained disturbed and vocal (figuratively) about this one football matter far beyond the bounds of reasonable or normative behavior. You would benefit from realizing this part of the matter and examining it, and not the merits of Gibbs decision, Gibbs moral status, or Ramsey’s career status and journey in the league to date.

[AJ_Skins]

What's to invalidate. You're pouting because Gibbs didn't play your guy last year and now he's gone to a different team. This whole thread is pointless. A nice time waster for me, but in reality, it has no bearing on anything. You just like the attention this view (however contrived) of yours brings you. That's obvious.

I stated very clearly why I'm "pouting". Sorry you don't like to hear it.

[AJ_Skins]

I would say with fair comfort of certainty, that there is no member of Pat's family, or his wife, or his best friend that would be like this.

You're right, because like I said, it's not about Ramsey. It's about Gibbs.

You have remained disturbed and vocal (figuratively) about this one football matter far beyond the bounds of reasonable or normative behavior. You would benefit from realizing this part of the matter, and not the merits of Gibbs decision, Gibbs moral status, or Ramsey’s career status and journey in the league to date.

You have a point, although it isn't my tone that's been excessive, at least not compared with what numerous others here have posted, but rather my determination in continuing to say what I think in the face of heated opposition. Maybe that's my own pride. Nevertheless, I explained very clearly over the past few posts exactly what's been motivating me.

Also, I have to point out that any talk of "the bounds of reasonable and normative behavior" on this board is laughable. :laugh:

[Jumbo]

You're right, because like I said, it's not about Ramsey. It's about Gibbs.

You have a point, although it isn't my tone that's been excessive, at least not compared with what numerous others here have posted, but rather my determination in continuing to say what I think in the face of heated opposition. Maybe that's my own pride. Nevertheless, I explained very clearly over the past few posts exactly what's been motivating me.

Also, I have to point out that any talk of "the bounds of reasonable and normative behavior" on this board is laughable. :laugh:

Your tone has been way over the top at times, as your record shows, and even when compared to virtually any who have posted, and you always brush that off, as you did here again. I think you do remember times when you've been shown some of the personal vitriol in your more uncontrolled moments. But enough.

I also note you easily and quickly brushed aside the suggestion made in the other paragraph you quoted. You remain true to form, and that, I understand. To what that form really is, is where we part. You suggest pride and something that sounds like your idea of courage, and I see something else entirely. I do wish you well, honestly.

[AJ_Skins]

Your tone has been way over the top at times, as your record shows, and even when compared to virtually any who have posted, and you always brush that off, as you did here again. I think you do remember times when you've been shown some of the personal vitriol in your more uncontrolled moments. But enough.

I also note you easily and quickly brushed aside the suggestion made in the other paragraph you quoted. You remain true to form, and that, I understand. To what that form really is, is where we part. You suggest pride and something that sounds like your idea of courage, and I see something else entirely. I do wish you well, honestly.

Whatever it is you think you see, I've stated what it is. When you're a kid and you look up to somebody as a role model, you tend to confer upon that person a degree of perfection that no one can live up to. I didn't have a lot of people I looked up to to that extent, but Joe Gibbs was one of them. Recognizing that he could do what it seems clear to me he did here is hard for me to accept. I imagine if you believed in Santa Claus until you were 31 and then found out he wasn't real, it would be a difficult thing to deal with. In this case, while my logic and experience tell me that no one is perfect, the kid in me has found it hard to accept the reality of this situation. And the reality is, Joe Gibbs did something pretty reprehensible here. On the bright side, Ramsey should have a few millions stored up by now, maybe not Lavar money, but enough to provide a nice cushion if his career never recovers.