Monk vs. Irvin: Just the facts

[ddub52]

monks number for the time were better than irvins for the time. on top of that monks last 2 seasons basically meant nothing. Besides, irvin will get in sooner or later, but monk is due sooner

[meetST]

they'll both def. get in.........both deserves to get in too..........

[ddub52]

they should both be in

[BigDFan5]

That Monk retired w/the catch streak, most receptions all-time and 3 SB rings should be all that matters.

Monk did NOT retire with the most receptions all time

[Ghost of]

Monk did NOT retire with the most receptions all time

I'm sorry, did Rice break it by that last meaningless year?

My apologies.

OK, aside from the top receiver of ALL TIME, was there anyone ahead of him?

[ddub52]

We hold no grudge against the Redskins.....its hard to hold a grudge against a team you own.

speaking of being owned...

[Gamebreaker]

If I can bring one itelligent mind into the light it was all worth while :applause:

If he was truly intelligent he would be blessed with the ability to read what has actually transpired in this thread. No one has effectively proven anything about Monk. What they have proven, is an obvious lack of actually watching the man play.

[wxscpo]

That Monk retired w/the catch streak, most receptions all-time and 3 SB rings should be all that matters.

Monk did NOT retire with the most receptions all time

Nor did he retire with 3 SB rings. He did play in 3, but the first one ended in a loss to the Raiders.

To me Monk is a borderline HOF player. He didn't have a 1000 yard season until his 5th in the league, then had 3 consecutive 1000 yard seasons. In his 8th season he only played 9 games, but was on a sub 1000 yard pace. In his final 7 seasons where he played all 16 games (he had an additional season, but only played 3 games) Monk only produced 2 more 1000 yard seasons. His 3 biggest playoff games all came in losses and in his 3 SB appearances he caught a combined 9 passes for 179 and 0 TDs. These are not the stats of a truly dominant WR, these are the stats of a guy who hung around long enough to put up these numbers. Monk is a compiler and IMO compilers do not belong in the HoF.

Even worse for Monk was the fact that when the Redskins were dominant in the late 80's and early 90's he wasn't even the best WR on his own team. It's really hard for someone to stand up and argue for Monk when the more dominant WR (Clark) isn't even getting a sniff. Also Monk has faced some tough competition lately against some WRs who have put up better numbers than Monk (Lofton) or won more championships (Swann & Stallworth). When those guys weren't getting in it would be hard to say Monk is more deserving over those guys. Monk will continue to face tough competition with guys like Andre Reed, Cris Carter and Tim Brown all coming up for votes not to mention that he still is going up against Irvin and I don't think Monk goes in before Irvin.

[ouvan59]

Nor did he retire with 3 SB rings. He did play in 3, but the first one ended in a loss to the Raiders.

Wrong. Monk got a ring for the 82 team as well. He was hurt in the last game of the year but he earned his ring just the same.

[ouvan59]

so Vinny Testeverde is also HOF material? he has accumulated a lot during his career. played in pro-bowls. he didn't play in the superbowl, but there are those in the HOF that didn't as well.

Other than interceptions, what NFL records did Vinny have again?

[MaddogCT]

Going by the actual number of games played, Monk played in 14 seasons, not 16.

Monk won 3 SB rings.

The only person to hold all three of the following records:

Consecutive games w/ a reception.

Most receptions in a season.

Most receptions in a carrer.

Not even Jerry Rice can make that claim.

Just thought you Irvin fans might like to know.

And PS.

He was the best reciever on his team. Of the three, Monk had the best hands.

:logo:

[shawn]

Other than interceptions, what NFL records did Vinny have again?

he is the #6 all time passer. I can dig up the rest if you like. but the point being longevity and being above average for many years is not a reason to get into HOF

[shawn]

I'm sure Monk wasn't all cracked up while playing either. Dont forget to mention that

ahhh the mind of a child is a beautiful thing. now run along before your parents get home and punish you for not finishing your home work

[ChiefPowhatan17]

I think it is amusing that cowgirl fans and iggles fans come on to our website to talk to people and plead their cases.

Irvin is nothing compaired to Monk. There is more to the position than just TD's and receptions. It's called blocking. And another thing is that Monk actually held some records. Irvin didn't. Irvin doesn't represent the game well, for the fact that he has a substance abuse problem. The league should think long and hard before letting a Coke head criminal into a place of respect and valor.

[NOVA2Tampa]

ahhh the mind of a child is a beautiful thing. now run along before your parents get home and punish you for not finishing your home work

So, you are denying that Irvin was busted for cocaine and for having a crack pipe in his vehicle? Denial is the longest river in the world, and it starts with big D.

[Henry]

he is the #6 all time passer. I can dig up the rest if you like. but the point being longevity and being above average for many years is not a reason to get into HOF

Shawn, again, Vinnie is, after being in the league for 19 years and playing as recently as this year under current rules, the #6 passer all time.

Monk, on the other hand, after 12 seasons and 6 games became the #1 all time leading WR. Eleven years after his retirement, after passing games have opened up and WR stats have exploded, he's still #5 all time.

Many, many players play the game for 12 years and do not become the top all-time player at their position. One notable player that comes to mind is Michael Irvin. Heck, Emmit Smith took 12 seasons and 8 games to break the all-time rushing record. Did he break it simply because of his longevity? Is he just another Vinne Testeverede?

It took Largent 14 years to compile the all time receptions mark that Monk broke in 12 years. Is Largent, a current HOFer, simply another Vinnie Testeverde?

Clearly, there was more to Monk's game than longevity. That a Dallas fan not only fails to acknowledge this, but insists on repeating a comparison to a laughably lesser player is not all that suprising. That that Dallas fan is you shawn, a poster I've come to respect as a fairly objective and decent opposing fan, is.

[Jay Master Jay]

The funniest thing is Irvin has Troy Aikman in the backfield. While Mork had Theisman, Williams, Rypien, Humphires and Schreoder as QB. That's not even including the qb's in New York and Philly.

[gray]

No thug like Irvin deserves the HOF, Maybe they could include his ARREST RECORDS in his stats !!!!

:dallasuck :dallasuck :dallasuck

[Dana87]

Art Monk, a first-round draft choice of the Washington Redskins in 1980, wasted little time in establishing himself as a premier wide receiver in the National Football League. He was a unanimous all-rookie selection and his 58 receptions were a Redskins' rookie record. Nine times during his 16-season career with the Redskins, New York Jets, and Philadelphia Eagles, the former Syracuse star exceeded 50 catches in a season and five times gained more than 1,000 receiving yards. He also set NFL records for most catches in a season (106), and most consecutive games with at least one reception (164). His consecutive games with a reception streak extended to 183 games. In 1992, with his 820th career catch, he became the NFL's then-all-time leader in receptions. He finished his career with 940 receptions.

Monk, at 6-3, 210 pounds, was a prototype for today's bigger, stronger receivers. He got off the line of scrimmage quickly and never hesitated to run patterns across the middle of the field. He was a master of the short pass route that often left defenses unable to adjust, allowing for substantial gains.

Art was a major part of the powerful Redskins teams that were dominant during the 1980s. During his 14 seasons with the Redskins, the team won three Super Bowls (XVII, XXII, and XXVI) and had just three losing seasons. It was, however, in 1984 that Monk had his finest season when he caught eight or more passes in six games, had five games of 100 yards or more and in a game against the San Francisco 49ers caught 10 passes for 200 yards. His outstanding play earned him team MVP honors and his first Pro Bowl selection. His season totals of 106 catches for 1,372 yards were career highs.

Monk went over the 1,000-yard mark in each of the following two seasons, becoming the first Redskins receiver to produce three consecutive 1,000 yard seasons. He also became the first Redskins player to catch 70 or more passes in three consecutive seasons.

Washington coach Joe Gibbs claimed his star receiver was the complete package. He called him the strongest outside receiver he'd ever coached, and was quick to point out his effectiveness at catching passes inside. "He's big, he's strong, he's intelligent, he has everything," the Hall of Fame coach remarked.

Monk was an All-Pro and All-NFC choice in 1984 and 1985 and was named second-team All-NFC in 1986. He was selected to play in the Pro Bowl following the 1984, 1985 and 1986 seasons.

By the way this is the bio from one of the Washington Redskins sites it's the Bio posted on the Pro Football Hall of Fame site. Kinda interesting.

http://www.profootballhof.com/hof/member.jsp?player_id=248

[grego]

To me Monk is a borderline HOF player. He didn't have a 1000 yard season until his 5th in the league, then had 3 consecutive 1000 yard seasons.

i'll compare monk vs irvin.

irvin didnt have 1,000 yards til year 4.

In his 8th season he only played 9 games, but was on a sub 1000 yard pace. In his final 7 seasons where he played all 16 games (he had an additional season, but only played 3 games) Monk only produced 2 more 1000 yard seasons. His 3 biggest playoff games all came in losses and in his 3 SB appearances he caught a combined 9 passes for 179 and 0 TDs.

in 15 career postseason games monk averaged almost 5 catches a game for over 70 yards a game and 7 TD's. irvins numbers are similar- in 16 post season games, almost 6 catches per game for 82 yards and 8 total TD's.

These are not the stats of a truly dominant WR, these are the stats of a guy who hung around long enough to put up these numbers. Monk is a compiler and IMO compilers do not belong in the HoF.

if we're looking at monks numbers being inflated due to longevity, it's fair to look at the 9th, 10th and 11th years for both players, as these were irvins last 3 complete years. monk caught 226 passes- 75 per year and 18 TD's. in 5 fewer games, irvin caught 213- 71 per year for 12 total TD's. (thanks to the poster who pointed this out earlier)

again, very similar numbers with monk having an edge in TD's even by compensating for irvins 5 fewer games.

monk followed his 11th year with 71 receptions for over 1,000 yards and 8 TD's with an average of 14.8 yards a catch in his 12th season. again, these numbers are comparable to irvins. monks 8 TD's stand out by comparison.

Even worse for Monk was the fact that when the Redskins were dominant in the late 80's and early 90's he wasn't even the best WR on his own team. It's really hard for someone to stand up and argue for Monk when the more dominant WR (Clark) isn't even getting a sniff. Also Monk has faced some tough competition lately against some WRs who have put up better numbers than Monk (Lofton) or won more championships (Swann & Stallworth). When those guys weren't getting in it would be hard to say Monk is more deserving over those guys. Monk will continue to face tough competition with guys like Andre Reed, Cris Carter and Tim Brown all coming up for votes not to mention that he still is going up against Irvin and I don't think Monk goes in before Irvin.

swann and stallworth's number arent even close to monks. lofton has a nice ypc, but i can't discount monks 940 receptions. loftons average of 47 catches per season is almost exactly what monk was in his last full year- 46. lofton had over 70 catches twice (71 both times). monk had more than that 6 times.

henry said it better than i. monk hung around for a few extra years, but had the vast majority of his production in his first 12 years where he broke several records- very few WR's can match what he did in his first 12 years. and he did all this without a HOF QB. take away his last 4 seasons and he still deserves to be in.

[Gamebreaker]

he is the #6 all time passer. I can dig up the rest if you like. but the point being longevity and being above average for many years is not a reason to get into HOF

I'm still waiting for you to prove your statement. How is Monk average compared to his peers in his era? I asked you to bring evidence to this thread. Instead, you just tried to ignore me. Obviously your agenda here isn't to win the argument, but to create dissension and hopefully win without actually proving anything.

Now, I could just go post Monk's stats compared to his peers in his era and prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that no more than 3 or 4 recievers were even comparable. Yet I didn't make any grand statements based on illusion and personal animosity towards a rival, so I'll let you do it. :cool:

[Jay Master Jay]

If you were in college playing WR who would the NFL want you to be like Mike or Art?

[frommd]

His 3 biggest playoff games all came in losses and in his 3 SB appearances he caught a combined 9 passes for 179 and 0 TDs

Super Bowl XXVII

Monk Receptions 7

Yards 113

Long 31

TD's 0

[Dick Edds]

I'm tired of this BS argument:

You know what, why don't we just throw out the last 4 years of Monk's career...

In Art Monk's first 12 seasons (1980-1991), he played in 173 games, caught 801 passes for 10,984 yards and 60 TD's.

In Michael Irvin's first 12 seasons (1988-1999), he played in 159 games, caught 750 passes for 11,904 yards and 65 TD's.

In Art Monk's 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th seasons, here are his stats:

1988: 16 games 72rec 946yds 5tds

1989: 16 games 86rec 1186yds 8tds

1990: 16 games 68rec 770yds 5tds

1991: 16 games 71rec 1049yds 8tds

In Michael Irvin's 9th, 10th, 11th, and 12th seasons, here are his stats:

1996: 11 games 64rec 962yds 2tds

1997: 16 games 75rec 1180yds 9tds

1998: 16 games 74rec 1057yds 1td

1999: 4 games 10rec 167yds 3tds

Ten years is when a lot of receivers start to slow down. Are you sure Irvin would have caught Monk?

Nice, that's an intersting way to lay out the facts. This topic is getting the "beat the dead horse" title. There are pro's and con's to Monk's stats and Irvin's stats, Monks longevitiy on a run first team that included 2 other 100 yard receivers and Irvin's not so-longevity due to injury while playing on a team with a HOF QB for his entire career and the all-time NFL rusher. THey both deserve to get in. They peaked in different era's - some would argue the 90's were a more passer firnedly era, and i would agree.

Bottom line to me is, they both deserve the HOF and have the credentials, but Monk should go first.

[PleaseGoForTheWin]

Art Monk was a consistent, excellent player who gave it his all. He deserves a Hall of Fame bid, and Michael Irvin has nothing to do with whether or not Monk is deserving.