Monk vs. Irvin: Just the facts

[Snackbar]

This isnt a thread on ST. Its on goofy ass Mike vs Art Monk.

[CowboySlayer]

personally i don't care what the idiot in blue says, the cowgirls still suck, and they will be in our rearview next season, they need to argue with someone in their class- like the browns :laugh:

[HeHateIggles]

Another point that should be made...Monk had some pretty average QB's throwing him the ball. Push-off had a HOF QB throwing him the ball.

Both should be in. But Monk 1st.

[Giants102180]

Name one WR from his era that would get in if we let Monk in.

...you're not going to find one because nobody can touch his numbers in the 80's.

I didnt say his era. I said THIS era. Saying that you should only compare players from similar eras is nice, but its not real life. Thats why Irvin and Monk, guys who's primes fell in different decades, are being compared not only by us but by the writers

For instance. . .

Someone please tell me the difference between Monk and Keenan McCardel. McCardel has won 2 superbowl rings so you cant go throwing Monks rings around, as if thats how we judge WRs anyway. . .

McCardell 184 games 825 catches 10,860 yds 62 TD

2 Pro Bowls, 5 1,000 yard seasons

Monk 224 games 940 catches 12,271 yds 68 TD

3 pro bowls 5 1,000 yard seasons

Very equal players statistically. Monk has about 1400 more yds receiving and 6 more TDs then McCardel. Give McCardell 40 more games to equal Monks Games Played Total and he surpasses Monk across the board

Is Keenan McCardel a HOFer? Don't think so

If Monk gets in for compiling numbers for a very long time, guys like McCardell, Rod Smith, Jimmy Smith and DEFINITELY Isaac Bruce are going to

Not a knock on Monk. I think Grimm deserves to go. Lets reserve the HOF for great players and not very good ones who played a long time.

Edit: If Extreme Skins is gonna take my option for a sig away I may as well do one manually

[Spaceman Spiff]

Please clarify. Did you mean football records or arrest records?

Zing! That was a good one.

I buy the argument that you can't compare them...two different styles, both should be rewarded for the HOF.

[andyburd]

How good could Art block? The best I ever saw. All our teams were in the top five in rushing every year. Great teamate also

[grego]

The hall of fame is about greatness, not "very goodness" for a long long time

Irvin in his prime dominated. Between 91 and 98 he was a GREAT football player, perennially 1,000 yards every year, a pro bowl fixture, he set an NFL record with ELEVEN 100 yard games in 1995 while winning a Superbowl, caught 111 passes for over 1600 yards. His stats are even hurt playing in an offense where they ran the ball more effectively then any team ever has and shortened games

Monk played 16 years, he had FIVE 1,000 yard seasons. Heck, Amani Toomer has Five 1,000 yard seasons, he even did it consecutively. Art Monk made 3 pro bowls. Joe Horn has made 4

Michael Irvin was a DOMINATOR, thats what the HOF is about, he was a better player then Monk

Edit: This is not a knock on Monk, but if we let him in with what he did we would be letting a lot of other guys from this era in. He was a terrific player, but I don't think hes a HOFer.

those are some good points.

still, monk has records. at one time, he caught more passes in a season than any player had ever caught. at one time, he caught more passes than any other player to ever play the game.

monk also played on 'run first' offenses while doing this, as irvin did. monk had 5 1000 yard season, irvin had 7. no big difference.

monk also did this with many different QB's- none of whom will be in the HOF. irvin had aikman. lets face it, having the all time leading rusher doesnt hurt your chances of getting open.

irvins best TD total was 10 in 95. not great for a dominator.

i'm not saying irvin wasnt overall more dominant in his prime, but monk has some impressive numbers.

[grego]

I didnt say his era. I said THIS era. Saying that you should only compare players from similar eras is nice, but its not real life. Thats why Irvin and Monk, guys who's primes fell in different decades, are being compared not only by us but by the writers

For instance. . .

Someone please tell me the difference between Monk and Keenan McCardel. McCardel has won 2 superbowl rings so you cant go throwing Monks rings around, as if thats how we judge WRs anyway. . .

McCardell 184 games 825 catches 10,860 yds 62 TD

2 Pro Bowls, 5 1,000 yard seasons

Monk 224 games 940 catches 12,271 yds 68 TD

3 pro bowls 5 1,000 yard seasons

Very equal players statistically. Monk has about 1400 more yds receiving and 6 more TDs then McCardel. Give McCardell 40 more games to equal Monks Games Played Total and he surpasses Monk across the board

Is Keenan McCardel a HOFer? Don't think so

If Monk gets in for compiling numbers for a very long time, guys like McCardell, Rod Smith, Jimmy Smith and DEFINITELY Isaac Bruce are going to

Not a knock on Monk. I think Grimm deserves to go. Lets reserve the HOF for great players and not very good ones who played a long time.

what records does mcardell have?

[Giants102180]

what records does mcardell have?

What major records does Monk hold now? Guys like rod Smith, Keenan McCardel, Jimmy smith, will surpass Monk in all 3 receiving categories (TDs, Receptions, Yards) If they reach his games played mark of 224. Those guys are not HOFers in my opinion

[prophet]

I just don't understand how Gary Clark is overlooked. He was the best wr we had durning late 80's earlier 90's.

IMO Clark was a gamebreaker and should be in the hall... yet he is never mentioned.

[Sean Taylor #21]

im just going to leave it at this, how were the playoffs on the T.V-dallas fag boys:cheers: GO SKINS

[Sean Taylor #21]

giant fan as well heres one for you, how does it feel to lose 24-0 at home eli manning you are truley awful:gaintsuck

[Giants102180]

giant fan as well heres one for you, how does it feel to lose 24-0 at home eli manning you are truley awful:gaintsuck

How does it feel to make the playoffs twice in 14 years

Bottom line, we were better then you this year, won the division, and have far more room to grow as a team. Eli is only going to get better, that cant be said about your QB situation

We have a full slate of picks, you dont

We have cap room, you dont

We have a QB who in his first full season had one of the best first full seasons a QB has ever had in the league, and will only get better

And oh yea, none of our players might be going to jail

Better then you ALREADY. With much more room to grow. Just deal with it

PS- Joe Gibbs would pee his pants (after removing the catheter) if you told him Jason Campbell could step in in year 2 and play as well as Eli did this year

[HeHateMe]

It's funny. Cowboys fans downplay longevity and durability when comparing Monk and Irvin yet act like it is the most important factor when comparing Smith and Brown/Sanders/Sayers.

Discussing longevity among WRs is one thing.

Discussing it among RBs is a whole different apple.

[TK]

How does it feel to make the playoffs twice in 14 years

Bottom line, we were better then you this year, won the division, and have far more room to grow as a team. Eli is only going to get better, that cant be said about your QB situation

We have a full slate of picks, you dont

We have cap room, you dont

We have a QB who in his first full season had one of the best first full seasons a QB has ever had in the league, and will only get better

And oh yea, none of our players might be going to jail

Better then you ALREADY. With much more room to grow. Just deal with it

PS- Joe Gibbs would pee his pants (after removing the catheter) if you told him Jason Campbell could step in in year 2 and play as well as Eli did this year

Look at that. A game of 'We have'. I'll play.

We have a HOF Coach.

We have went further in the playoffs then you.

We have a Coach that actually wins championships.

We have a way of removing your trolling arse if you have nothing better to offer.

[Goaldeje]

What major records does Monk hold now? Guys like rod Smith, Keenan McCardel, Jimmy smith, will surpass Monk in all 3 receiving categories (TDs, Receptions, Yards) If they reach his games played mark of 224. Those guys are not HOFers in my opinion

Are you that brain dead? Seriously? Have you not bothered to read the posts of the people before you? Think about it for a second. Take off your Giants shaded glasses and look at this logically. Two points to consider:

1) the quality of QBs each player played with. Aikman vs. Theismann, Williams, Schroeder, Rypien, et all. Theismann was a great QB, but Monk only got him for a short time. The rest? Come on. Aikman, as much as I despise him, is far and above better than the guys Monk played with.

2) Saying that you can't just compare players from the same era is preposterous. Irvin and Monk played in different decades (for the most part) in different times in NFL history. Let me show you some stats, just for fun:

From 1995-2005, the leadeing receiver (yards) averaged at least 67 receptions (by far the lowest, E Moulds, in '98; next lowest is 82), and at most 143 (M. Harrison, 2002). The yardage leader in the same time period had at least 1338 ('96 I. Bruce), and at most 1848 (J. Rice, '95).

Now let's throw it back 15 years, from 1980 - 1990. The least number of receptions for the league leader in yardage was 49 (W. Chandler, '82) while the highest was 100 (J. Rice, '90). The highest yardage total for league leaders was at least 913 (D. Clark, 1982), and at most 1570 (J. Rice, 1970).

Lots of stats, I know. But it tells me one thing: teams tended to throw the ball A LOT less in Monk's era than in Irvins. Saying you HAVE to compare them is assinine fatuity (look it up). The second lowest receptions total from 1995-2005 (80, R. Moss, 1999) would have ranked him first in 1981 and 1982 and 1985, as well as the number one receiver for a conference (AFC or NFC) 7 OTHER times. Get it through your head: teams in the 90's passed more than teams in the 80's. This is a relatively indisputable fact.

I am not arguing Irvin does not deserve the Hall. Should have already been voted in, IMO. But saying Monk was at best a #2, unworthy of the Hall betrays a disappointing lack of football knowledge, especially for this board.

[TK]

Edit: If Extreme Skins is gonna take my option for a sig away I may as well do one manually

Just saw this.

I guess you can't manage to follow the Forum Rules. Especially the one about sigs. Guess who now gets a time out so they can go read them. PM me when understand them & think you can abide by them.

[redskinfansince73]

Shut Up TheKeyBlue! I don't care what Your boy Irvin woulda, coulda, shoulda done. The bottom line is,Your boy did not play long enough to amass Art Monks numbers! Maybe if he had stayed off the coke and prosititutes and concentrated on football like Monk did,we would not even be having this discussion.Art Monk Symbolizes what a Class act and a Hall of Famer should be.Let's just say your boy Irvin can't hold a candle to the things Monk did on the field and off! Irvin put up his numbers during the time,that recievers were allowed to push off to get seperation.He would not have near as many catches,yardage,or Touch Downs.I personally don't really care what a cowboy fan thinks about Monk.I expect cowboy loyalty to Irvin,even if he does not deserve it! Your argument that Irvin is more deserving of being in the Hall than Monk is Bunk! HTTR!

[redskinfansince73]

All you idiots that post about players that would break Art Monk's records if they played more games.Listen to what you are saying!No credit for Monk playing long enough,and staying healthy to amass these stats that one day will be broken,just that once a record has been broken,lets forget about the player who set the mark.All this could have,should have,would have talk is nonsense.The bottom line is,What are the numbers,and where is Monk ranked on the alltime list now! HTTR!:eaglesuck :gaintsuck :dallasuck

[Awgustlab]

How many times was Michael Irvin arrested and for what as compared to Art Monk?

[TheREALJBird]

The HOF is becoming more of a joke every year. I'm gonna stop getting mad though, doesn't do any good, more and more ppl will just frown upon the hall....and they should

[painfulyetloyal]

Don't forget that Art Monk was also one of the best blocking WRs of his era. Joe Gibbs has freely admitted that Art's numbers weren't as good as they should have been because he frequently pulled Art in to block in max-protect schemes. Irvin never blocked a guy in his life.

Thats not true, I heard one time someone tried to smoke his last rock, and Irvin blocked the hell out of him!

[Sknsnation]

so fella you wont just the facts,heres a couple Fact irvin busted with cocaine.Fact irvin busted with a crackpipe in his car.

[painfulyetloyal]

The hall of fame is about greatness, not "very goodness" for a long long time

Irvin in his prime dominated. Between 91 and 98 he was a GREAT football player, perennially 1,000 yards every year, a pro bowl fixture, he set an NFL record with ELEVEN 100 yard games in 1995 while winning a Superbowl, caught 111 passes for over 1600 yards. His stats are even hurt playing in an offense where they ran the ball more effectively then any team ever has and shortened games

Monk played 16 years, he had FIVE 1,000 yard seasons. Heck, Amani Toomer has Five 1,000 yard seasons, he even did it consecutively. Art Monk made 3 pro bowls. Joe Horn has made 4

Michael Irvin was a DOMINATOR, thats what the HOF is about, he was a better player then Monk

Edit: This is not a knock on Monk, but if we let him in with what he did we would be letting a lot of other guys from this era in. He was a terrific player, but I don't think hes a HOFer.

Wrong donkey boy. NOONE in Monks era or before his era did it better, he retired the greatest reciever to play the game, period.

[clevelanskins28]

OK, lets play the IF HE PLAYED LONGER game. If Barry Sanders played longer, Emmit Smith wouldnt be in consideration for THE best of all time. If Jim Brown played longer, no one would talk about any rushing records. Rome wasnt built in a day, neither are records. You have to earn them, Irvin was great for some time, but Monk was great for longer, with less talent around him, in a less explosive era of football. Irvin went to three Super Bowls in four years, Monk went to three in 9 years. Irvin had a great, consistent team for a little bit, Monk had some good teams, with different QB's, for a long time. Monk is one of the greatest PEOPLE or PERSONS to play in the NFL, Irvin may only be one of the greatest players, which brings up the argument, should the HOF only be for what you did on the feild? Either way, Art Monk is extremely qualified for the Hall.