EersSkins05 Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Dude, that ain't true. Both Kobe and Shaq won those rings. How many rings does Shaq have without Kobe? Well, lets just say that he's been to the Finals w/out Kobe and was 2 minutes from the finals last year, while "Kobe's Team" - you know, the one that he forced by forcing Shaq's exhile- missed the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gichin13 Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Odom has been a major dissapointment. The trouble is that he cannot move without the basketball. When you watch laker games it is rediculous how no one except kobe seems to want the ball. Smush dribbles down and then passes to kobe. Every other laker just stands around. They don't even seem to try to get a rebound. "Every other laker just stands around." Great sign of poor and selfish offensive play. Just look at the Wiz last year -- when they started jacking it up, everyone starts standing around and the offense becomes one on one. This is one place I will lay some blame on Kobe. I would hope at a minimum he would try and get Odom into the flow and get off. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gichin13 Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 cosign...kobe's ninja of the late 80s-90s jordan is the reason why i don't like him. the one thing kobe didn't take was jordan's ability to pick his spots and trust his teammates. perhaps that will come in time, i dunno. there's no doubt kobe is a phenomenal athlete, dedicated to perfection and taking the heart of his opponents. I pick MJ over Kobe, but this really is not fair. How can you trust Kwame? Smush? Come on, it is a lot easier to have faith that Paxson and Kerr will drill it. Besides, Jordan did not trust everyone. He constantly threw the ball at Cartwright's head and called him hands of stone. He would stop passing the ball on a pretty constant basis before Pippen got seasoned, Grant got seasoned and Phil took over. I would take MJ's cast over Kobe's in a heartbeat. That being said, I definitely blame Kobe for the state of the team. He imploded a dynasty and that is what I hold against him and part of the reason why psychologically he will never meet up to MJ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius J. Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Actually it's more a sign of poor coaching IMO. At some point isn't it thier job to go and get the ball and put it in the hole? If kobe is the only one trying, why should he be criticised? Imagine walking down the court and getting the ball passed to you, you turn see a mediocre shot for yourself that you can probably make but instead you pass it to a teamate with an easy shot. Then that teamate misses the shot, or worse just drops the ball. Next time you get your mediocre shot you just take it. This lakers team is flawed. Kobe's scoring binge is symptomatic of a bad team, but not neccesarily the cause of them being a bad team. Without Kobe going on these runs this is not a playoff team. Right now, the lakers might make the playoffs. That is making your team better. Would I be happier with a better offense? You bet. But the problem is the talent around kobe not kobe himself. Now maybe you can argue that no one who is any good wants to play with kobe. That might be true and a fair criticism, but on the court, the lakers problems are hardly kobe's fault. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSteve Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 Funny thing, Shaq leaves and now the lakers suck. Kobe is good, but you give him too much credit for those rings. It was mainly shaq inside that got them to where they were those years when they won it all. Funny thing, you saying Shaq is the only one that left. Go check the Lakers roster in their 2004-2005 loss to the Pistons, or even their last threepeat, and then check it with the current roster. When you figure out how many PROMINENT roll players that played a crucial role in the Laker dynasty's success are still with the team, come back and try to postulate that Shaq left and everyone else started sucking. Seriously, newsflash: Robert Horry Rick Fox Derrick Fisher Karl Malone Gary Payton These are just some of the players that played a part in the Lakers runs. Please don't fool yourself into thinking this is the same veteran, experienced squad that surrounded Shaq and Kobe. In fact, one of the reasons WHY the Lakers started to falter BEFORE shaq was traded is because they didn't keep the supporting cast around the main two up to par. The entire reason they lost to the Pistons is because the Pistons decided to let Shaq get his, triple team Kobe and make the role players hit shots and make them play honest defense. Guess what? The Lakers roll players THEN couldn't hit those shots, Kobe got frustrated because of that and started playing 1 on 3 and they lost. It's no different now, except they have no Shaq O'Neal to mask the fact that their supporting cast is HORRIBLE. and they have no 1-2 veteran stopgaps to make themselves look presentable. Kwame Brown? I used to think in the right situation he would blossom, but I'm ready to eat my crow. He's the same thing in LA he was in Washington. A good defensive post player who underachieves everywhere else. Lamar Odom? Career underachiever. Had one good season in Miami where he did anything of worth. He cannot play without the ball and is inconsistent. He's not even very good with the ball in his hands a facilitator. They should have dealt this guy for Artest when they had a shot. Smush freaking Parker? This guy wouldn't even start on most NBA teams. He's a project, yet the Lakers are so weak at the point he's starting. Chris Mihm? He's about the only consistent player on the Lakers besides Kobe, and he's average. Devean George? He was a maddingly inconsistent player during the championship run, and without Shaq he's even more so. The great thing about a Shaq was he could mask a player like Georges inadaquecies. In order to build around a perimeter player like Kobe you need players with specialized skill sets not tweeners who have never really honed their game. This Lakers team is so poorly put together its laughable that anyone would suggest Kobe is not what he is(the best perimeter player in the game bar none) because his team is not an elite team. It's amazing the Lakers are in the playoff hunt. This team is comparable to the Magic in Orlando when T-Mac was down there(probably worse), and T-Mac couldn't do much with that team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cadets08 Posted January 30, 2006 Share Posted January 30, 2006 In a word.....no Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TODD Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 I don't know why this conversation has to be all about offense... 50% of the game is on the other end of the court, and Jordan is one of the greatest defensive players of all time. Jordan's offense v. Kobe's offense may be comparable, but defense is half your job. And that's why they aren't even close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSteve Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 I don't know why this conversation has to be all about offense...50% of the game is on the other end of the court, and Jordan is one of the greatest defensive players of all time. Jordan's offense v. Kobe's offense may be comparable, but defense is half your job. And that's why they aren't even close. Kobe is the best defensive two guard in the league in terms of superstars. In my mind, Kobe doesn't equal Jordan because Jordan was just levels above everyone in the psychological aspect of the game. He had you beat mentally and he took pride in that. That's an inherent quality that you're born with. Jordan had it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Jordan is, here's why. I've posted this on other basketball related threads, but I think it bears repeating, especially in this argument. Over the past 25 years or so, every single championship team has had a very good to a dominant big man. Spurs (Duncan, Robinson), Lakers (Shaq), Rockets (Hakeem), Pistons (Laimbeer, the only real fault of my argument...nowhere in the league of these others), Celtics (Parrish), and the Lakers again (Kareem). All of these teams had these big men and they were extremely important in their title runs. All of these teams won multiple titles, too. Who did Jordan have? Bill Cartwright, Bill Wennington, Will Perdue, and Luc Longley. Yet his Bulls teams finally found a way to beat the physical and big Pistons, and kicked the crap out of Patrick Ewing every year in the playoffs. Despite the lack of a true center, Jordan figured out how to win without one. Granted, he did have a great running mate in Pippen and Ho-Grant and Rodman. However Rodman never was a true offensive threat, and Ho-Grant was a third option. Kobe hasn't shown he can win without Shaq. He hasn't even shown he can make the playoffs, although they might this year. Kobe has all the talent in the world, he just hasn't figured it out yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camyj15 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Not sure I know what team you're referring to b/c the Lakers have no talent, except for Odom, and he's soft as a pillow. I've watched 90% of their games this year and last year, and I'm waiting for Medvedanko to come back, they suck so bad!!!Kobe was a good team player when they were winning championships. You don't think Derek Fisher was their version of Kerr/Paxson? Kobe led all those teams in assists each year, so I think he knows how to play team ball and get others involved. He had confidence in Fish, Ho Grant, B. Shaw; don't think he'll eagerly pass the ball to someone named Smush or Lil' Luke. He's their only option this year, and he and Phil knows that. I have only seen a few Lakers games this year. I've seen enough to know that his teammates now are not nearly as talented as his past mates. Basketball is a team game. I am sure there are some things Kobe's mates can adequately do on the court. Kobe's teammates just stand around and watch him with the ball. Why? Because he does not even seek to involve them. I don't buy they're so bad they can't even touch the ball. When the game is on the line, I can see Kobe passing over teammates to take the big shots, otherwise he should get them involved. There is more to making teammates better than making assists. Knowing your teammates strengths and playing them up is one. Kobe made winning uncomfortable for the Lakers. He worried about being the last player to run out of the tunnel onto the court (mostly after Shaq). He was so worried about who got credit for the winning. These type of things tend to not make a team better. He seems to have always had a problem figuring out his role within the team concept. The fact is Kobe doesn't really make his teammates better. Anyway, Kobe vs. Jordan - Jordan hands down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camyj15 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Jordan is, here's why. Over the past 25 years or so, every single championship team has had a very good to a dominant big man. Spurs (Duncan, Robinson), Lakers (Shaq), Rockets (Hakeem), Pistons (Laimbeer, the only real fault of my argument...nowhere in the league of these others), Celtics (Parrish), and the Lakers again (Kareem). All of these teams had these big men and they were extremely important in their title runs. All of these teams won multiple titles, too. Who did Jordan have? Bill Cartwright, Bill Wennington, Will Perdue, and Luc Longley. Yet his Bulls teams finally found a way to beat the physical and big Pistons, and kicked the crap out of Patrick Ewing every year in the playoffs. Despite the lack of a true center, Jordan figured out how to win without one. Kobe has all the talent in the world, he just hasn't figured it out yet. I agree with your point about Jordan. He won without a dominant big man. Kobe won with Shaq. But look at the Pistons. Their big man is Ben Wallace. He's not quite a big man in NBA terms, but the Pistons, as the championship Bulls teams, play great team ball. I like this Pistons team because they play basketball the way it should be played. No super duper stars. A talented group playing team ball. They kind of remind of the Redskins defense this year, team ball. No doubt these guys would be Gibbs-type players, a group that sets aside individual agendas for the good of the team. In the NBA, laying down egos like that is virtually nonexistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sircharlz Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 During the Lakers latest championships the league was very weak. All they had to do was get out of the West and the championship was a given. Those were a few years of ugly basketball. I love watching the Pistons and Spurs dominate now with team ball. Kobe has amazing talent, but I don't think he's as complete as Jordan. Kobe has yet to prove he can "lead" a team. Not that he's too selfish, because Jordan was also - there's just something that Jordan had that Kobe doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCS Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 It's not just the moves or the points. It was M.J's ability to not only raise the level of his game, but those around him. For all his amazing physical abilities, it was this that I think seperates him from the rest. It was also his willingness to trust his teammates in critical times after helping them raise their game. I don't have to reference games and times for that one I don't think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TODD Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 It's not just the moves or the points. It was M.J's ability to not only raise the level of his game, but those around him. For all his amazing physical abilities, it was this that I think seperates him from the rest. It was also his willingness to trust his teammates in critical times after helping them raise their game. I don't have to reference games and times for that one I don't think. All you have to say in reference to the games is the word "playoffs". He was simply incredible in those games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSteve Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 It's not just the moves or the points. It was M.J's ability to not only raise the level of his game, but those around him. For all his amazing physical abilities, it was this that I think seperates him from the rest. It was also his willingness to trust his teammates in critical times after helping them raise their game. I don't have to reference games and times for that one I don't think. Really. Who's game did he raise to such levels that overcompensated for their talent? Every major piece of the NBA Bulls that left were either good before they go to Chicago or just as effective when they left Chicago when their three peats were dismantled. Steve Kerr-went on to play productively with the Spurs, hitting clutch threes. Scottie Pippen-went on to lead the Blazers to the WCF and went into the playoffs with a Rockets team with the dream and Barkley. Toni Kukoc-Journeyman player who's put up good numbers since he left Chicago, but ofcourse has declined with age. Dennis Rodman-Was a great player pre-Jordan Harvey Grant-Was a good player after he left Chicago BJ Armstrong-very productive player with the Magic after he left Chicago The list goes on. You'll get no arguments from me Jordan was the best ever, but this crap about making crappy players better is overrated. Nowhere in NBA history has a team full of scrubs surrounding star players won the NBA title. Once the Lakers figure out that you can't win with incompatible parts the Lakers will start to contend again. They don't even need superstars, they just need to get rid of all their tweeners, find a REAL SF who can handle the ball and play pressure D, and find players that fit the triangle offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 I agree with your point about Jordan. He won without a dominant big man. Kobe won with Shaq. But look at the Pistons. Their big man is Ben Wallace. He's not quite a big man in NBA terms, but the Pistons, as the championship Bulls teams, play great team ball. I like this Pistons team because they play basketball the way it should be played. No super duper stars. A talented group playing team ball. They kind of remind of the Redskins defense this year, team ball. No doubt these guys would be Gibbs-type players, a group that sets aside individual agendas for the good of the team. In the NBA, laying down egos like that is virtually nonexistent. Oooops, yeah, I totally forgot about the Pistons a couple years ago, had a feeling i was leaving someone off :doh: Big Ben is a difference maker though, he's out of the Wes Unseld mold. Puts defense and rebounding before scoring. You're right, not a classic big man, but still...he's pretty damn good. And you know if Jordan had a dominant center...well...that would have just been amazing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinz1972 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Yeah and Pippen didn't stand a chance without Jordan. Jordan made Pippen. actually,scotty almost made it back to the nba finals with portland,wasnt pip on that portland team that lost to shaq and kobe? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrockster21 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Is there really somebody named "Smush Parker" on the Lakers?? Or is that a nickname? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Is there really somebody named "Smush Parker" on the Lakers?? Or is that a nickname? His real name is William. http://www.basketball-reference.com/players/p/parkesm01.html He started off really hot this year but has cooled down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCS Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Really. Who's game did he raise to such levels that overcompensated for their talent? Every major piece of the NBA Bulls that left were either good before they go to Chicago or just as effective when they left Chicago when their three peats were dismantled.Steve Kerr-went on to play productively with the Spurs, hitting clutch threes. Scottie Pippen-went on to lead the Blazers to the WCF and went into the playoffs with a Rockets team with the dream and Barkley. Toni Kukoc-Journeyman player who's put up good numbers since he left Chicago, but ofcourse has declined with age. Dennis Rodman-Was a great player pre-Jordan Harvey Grant-Was a good player after he left Chicago BJ Armstrong-very productive player with the Magic after he left Chicago The list goes on. You'll get no arguments from me Jordan was the best ever, but this crap about making crappy players better is overrated. Nowhere in NBA history has a team full of scrubs surrounding star players won the NBA title. Once the Lakers figure out that you can't win with incompatible parts the Lakers will start to contend again. They don't even need superstars, they just need to get rid of all their tweeners, find a REAL SF who can handle the ball and play pressure D, and find players that fit the triangle offense. Never said they were scrubs steve. Never said they were crappy either so let's just check that at the door. These were good or adequate players yet when with the Bulls, became part of a championship team. Their game was raised, imho, both statistically and on the court by being on the same team with Jordan. The stories of his willingness to drive himself and his teammates in practice and on the court are well documented. He helped raise their game. Whether you chose to buy it or not doesn't make it any less true. Or at least doesn't lower the possibility. No doubt Scottie Pippen was one of the top 4 guys, ( some would argue at times the 2nd), behind Jordan at the time. He constantly joined Jordan on all-start teams and all defensive teams. He also had 6 rings to go along with it. How many of those did he get after Mike left? But between age and not having Jordan "and the rest" of the the players Jordan, (and at times he as well), but between age and being away from that team, he wasn't quite the player he was when he was with the Bulls. At least from what I could see. Steve Kerr is another example. He was a good player, who coincidentally enough, was at his most productive, for the most part, while playing for the Bulls. He played more and shot more I believe with the Bulls than he did anywhere else. And he played decent defense as well. And he became clutch, for the most part, during his time with the Bulls. No coincidence for me there. Rodman was Rodman. BJ Armstrong. Same as Kerr. And the list goes on. Sports have been and still are awash with stories of how great players made those around them better. Must be some truth in that somewhere. ell Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Spot on, PCS. If TheSteve ever heard any of those guys talk about what Jordan did for their games, he'd understand. It's not always reflected in their stats. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Sick Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Can Kobe hit a curve ball? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gichin13 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 actually,scotty almost made it back to the nba finals with portland,wasnt pip on that portland team that lost to shaq and kobe? Got robbed with the Bulls in MJ's year off when the refs let the Knicks utterly hack the crap out of everyone for like six shots around the basket with no call too. I think that was to get into the eastern conference finals, and that team without MJ won like 55 games and Pippen dominated all year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
camyj15 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Rodman was Rodman. BJ Armstrong. Same as Kerr. And the list goes on. Sports have been and still are awash with stories of how great players made those around them better. Must be some truth in that somewhere. ell Amen. :applause: And don't forget Scott Williams and Stacey King played adequately and got rings with Jordan also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TODD Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Can Kobe hit a curve ball? MJ couldn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.