Drex Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Got robbed with the Bulls in MJ's year off when the refs let the Knicks utterly hack the crap out of everyone for like six shots around the basket with no call too. I think that was to get into the eastern conference finals, and that team without MJ won like 55 games and Pippen dominated all year. I am glad that this was mentioned. As great as a player MJ was, people sometimes forget that his supporting cast during those championship runs were far from inferior. The Bulls were 55-27 without Jordan in 94, with Pippen having an MVP caliber performance. Great players need the presence of great role players. A great player alone is not going to take a team to the championship. Alot of MJ evaluation is based on his career after he started winning championships. However, prior to that point, Jordan was playing a similar role that Kobe plays with the Lakers today: he was basically the #1, 2 and 3 scoring options on his team. Before he was surrounded by the likes of Grant and Pippen, he had to rely upon the majesty of the likes of Brad Sellers and Dave Corzine. The key for the Lakers management will be to find role players who can play along side Kobe and make consistent contributions when called to do so. They need a guy who can distribute the basketball, and probably a physical presence in the middle who can provide you with some consistent defense and rebounding. The argument regarding MJ and Kobe is IMO, one that will continue to exist. Kobe is a guy who works hard on his craft and lives and dies basketball, and before its all said and done, IMO, his stats and contributions will make the MJ and Kobe debate a lot more interesting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSteve Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Sports have been and still are awash with stories of how great players made those around them better. Must be some truth in that somewhere. ell I never said he didn't make them better, but part of the Jordan folklore is that he took trash and made it into treasure. Perhaps a more honest look at the history of the Bulls would show talent that equally started to mature with Jordan and come into their own. Did Jordan help their maturation process? Yes, but they were all the type of players that would have succeeded as long as they were put in that type of role. I think a Jordan when he was playing for the Wizards could have made it deep into the playoffs as the #1 option with the 1998 Bulls team. He couldn't do much with the Wizards squad though. Everyone hated him, said he dominated the ball too much, was too demanding, an ego maniac. Sounds like Kobe huh? :laugh: It's too bad Jordan wasn't in his prime in Washington. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSteve Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Also, if you took Kobe off the Lakers and replaced him with an average player, everyone on the Lakers would be playing just the same right, since Kobe doesn't make his teammates better? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Gichin13 Posted January 31, 2006 Share Posted January 31, 2006 Both guys are great players. If I had first pick choosing teams for a run, I would pick Michael. But Kobe would not be a bad second lol ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmwills1 Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 Oooops, yeah, I totally forgot about the Pistons a couple years ago, had a feeling i was leaving someone off :doh:Big Ben is a difference maker though, he's out of the Wes Unseld mold. Puts defense and rebounding before scoring. You're right, not a classic big man, but still...he's pretty damn good. And you know if Jordan had a dominant center...well...that would have just been amazing. I believe your argument is flawed because I dont really understand how ben wallace and dennis rodman are that different. Strong defense, play with attitude, dive on the floor for loose balls, good for about 3-5 points a game. If you are gonna say that Ben was the dominant center for the pistons, then you are contradicting yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pseto Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 Also, if you took Kobe off the Lakers and replaced him with an average player, everyone on the Lakers would be playing just the same right, since Kobe doesn't make his teammates better? Thats not true. Kobe is the only person on the team that knows how to run the triangle offense; everyone else is still learning. It takes a while to learn (2 yrs probably) and Kobe's teammates actually get a lot of open shots. They just can't hit them, or they can't catch the pass. They have a hard time running the ofense b/c of not being familiar and thus, folks stand around and watch Kobe go to work. Kobe is also 2nd on the team in assists (4.4/game), which is the same amount he has averaged his whole career when they were winning championships (he was leading assist man on all those title team BTW, so him not knowing how to be a team player is ridiculous). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jmwills1 Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 Never said they were scrubs steve. Never said they were crappy either so let's just check that at the door. These were good or adequate players yet when with the Bulls, became part of a championship team. Their game was raised, imho, both statistically and on the court by being on the same team with Jordan. The stories of his willingness to drive himself and his teammates in practice and on the court are well documented. He helped raise their game. Whether you chose to buy it or not doesn't make it any less true. Or at least doesn't lower the possibility. No doubt Scottie Pippen was one of the top 4 guys, ( some would argue at times the 2nd), behind Jordan at the time. He constantly joined Jordan on all-start teams and all defensive teams. He also had 6 rings to go along with it. How many of those did he get after Mike left? But between age and not having Jordan "and the rest" of the the players Jordan, (and at times he as well), but between age and being away from that team, he wasn't quite the player he was when he was with the Bulls. At least from what I could see. Steve Kerr is another example. He was a good player, who coincidentally enough, was at his most productive, for the most part, while playing for the Bulls. He played more and shot more I believe with the Bulls than he did anywhere else. And he played decent defense as well. And he became clutch, for the most part, during his time with the Bulls. No coincidence for me there. Rodman was Rodman. BJ Armstrong. Same as Kerr. And the list goes on. Sports have been and still are awash with stories of how great players made those around them better. Must be some truth in that somewhere. ell What were these guys ages when they played with Jordan and years that they did not play with Jordan? I have no idea, but one could guess that they were at their most productive with Jordan because they were in their primes. Also, does anyone remember who checked the opposing teams best offensive player throughout the game (Not just the end), pip or jordan? One last thing for people arguing that Kobe does not make his teammates better and he is a ballhog, etc. I believe I heard on tv the other day that the Lakers have the youngest team in the NBA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdsknbill Posted February 1, 2006 Share Posted February 1, 2006 In a word NO. Kobe had the luxury of the dominance of Shaq to allow him to rain in points. At this time he is a one man team. I'm not going into a discertaion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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