Burgold Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 I think it's very telling that two years into an occupation that we need to have a discussion about why we're there and what the point of us being there is. The fact that we can have an honest discussion, but that we can only express opinions and don't know what the goal is means it either hasn't been well defined/expressed or there wasn't one for what we are doing now or that the goal was one that was thought to be unshareable with the American people by our elected officials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
75004 Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 At this point of the war, I think is survival. We are fighting the wrong type of war, initially we went in there powerfull and dominant however we fell right into their kind of B*llcrap. The cowards know that they can't match the military so they fight by blowing themselves up and using other terrorist tactics. There will never be an end if we continue to approach the war like we are currently doing. Let's stick the course but change our approach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 Capitalisim. Whatever government Iraq decides to put in place is up to them, but they're gonna sell us their oil whether they like it or not, I believe that. That is not capitalism that is theft Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?t=128301 Iraqi Security Forces Reach Milestone Iraqi security forces now number more than 200,000, significant because they will be taking the lead in providing security for the Oct. 15 referendum. By Multinational Security Transition Command-Iraq BAGHDAD, Iraq, Oct. 11, 2005 — The effort to train, equip and mentor Iraq's security forces hit a milestone recently, with the number of men and women serving in uniform stretching past 200,000. Currently the Iraqi Ministry of Interior has 106,112 personnel serving as part of security forces. The Ministry of Defense has 93,959 servicemembers in the military. Reaching this landmark is especially significant given that Iraq's military and police forces will be taking the lead in providing security for the Oct. 15 referendum, officials said. There are now more than 60,000 additional Iraqi security forces available than there were for the highly-successful January election held earlier this year. Since the effort to rebuild the country's forces began about 15 months ago, more than 115 special police and army combat battalions have been formed as well as regular police, border enforcement and highway patrol for the Ministry of Interior and motor transport regiments, Navy, Air Forces and numerous training organizations for the Ministry of Defense. The majority of those combat battalions are fighting side-by-side coalition forces and several dozen are already taking the lead in operations, officials said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
airborneskins Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 You know BlackHawk Down was on TV last night, and as I was watching it, I couldn't help but think What if we wouldn't have withdrawn out of Somalia? I mean isn't it fact that alot of the terorists were atleast in Mogadishu? I think that if we withdraw from Iraq, it will turn into the same type of thing. Iamgine all of those people in Mogadishu with all of thier hate for us, if we could have taken them out then.... :2cents: Now I know that the hate for us would still be there, but is it possible that if we wouldn't have withdrawn, then the insurgents in Iraq, would not keep doing thier thing. Clinton wthdrew us out of Somolia, should Bush do the same thing? I do not think so, and I believe that is what the Terrorists are waiting on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portisizzle Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 I think it's very telling that two years into an occupation that we need to have a discussion about why we're there and what the point of us being there is. The fact that we can have an honest discussion, but that we can only express opinions and don't know what the goal is means it either hasn't been well defined/expressed or there wasn't one for what we are doing now or that the goal was one that was thought to be unshareable with the American people by our elected officials. How can we have an honest discussion about this if people continue to ignor the importance of our physical position in the middle east. The argument is less about the fact that we have achieved goals. Rather, it is about getting people to understand why the goals we have achieved will have a positive impact on every person living on Earth. The defeat of terrorism as we know it is in full swing. Why every peace loving person on Earth does not buy into the destruction of terrorists and the regimes that prop them up is a question for the ages. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 The point of the thread is the question of the thread. People are uncertain "What is our Goal in Iraq?" The thread was not about are we successful there or is it going well, but what is the actual goal... what is the end point. I'll quote myself from another thread-- This is why the goal thread is so interesting and why it shows that so many may be off the track. The purpose of Iraq was, I believe, to be a step in the war against terrorism. It is not the sum and the goal. Iraq is a step. If we accomplish a utopian democrasy in Iraq we didn't win. We toppled Sadam. Mission wasn't accomplished. We could control all the oil. Iraqi guns could suddenly sprout bloom and IED's could shower manna and the war against terror would still be ongoing. Winning or losing the war in Iraq may be similiar to the capture of a strategic hill on a battlefield. The taking of that hill will give us an advantage, but whether to take that hill and after taking it deciding how much resource you want to put into holding it is an entirely different issue. Regardless, the taking of that hill won't win the war. Losing that hill won't cost you the war. That is, if what we truly are worried about is terrorism and not saving face. What we have failed to do to any meaningful degree is protect ourselves. I'm exaggerating a bit, but our harbors, ports, trainstations, bus stops, and even army bases have not been made more secure. Our borders are less secure than before 9/11 by both presidential decree or laisee faire. Our intelligence mechanism has been addressed, but it is far from decided if it has been improved. Our citizens awareness of what to do during attacks situations, our preparedness is woeful. Have you been taught what to do under a chemical strike or terrorist situation? Heck, at least in the fifties they had air raid drills and taught the correct position for hiding under a desk. Domestic security is been ridiculously underfunded and has not proceded even close to the level it should have. That is, if you believe terrorism is a real threat and not a boogey man to be used to frighten children and voters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulstonebraker Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 it's pretty simple, i dunno what the big hullaballu is about. Iraq = full of noobs USA = uber awesome AMERICAN Pros so we go into Iraq since were UBER PRO, and we PWN THE NOOBS IN IRAQ, and make them uber pro! its pretty simple liek i said Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portisizzle Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 The point of the thread is the question of the thread. People are uncertain "What is our Goal in Iraq?"The thread was not about are we successful there or is it going well, but what is the actual goal... what is the end point. I would argue the "end point" is the defeat of terrorists and regimes that prop them up. Iraq is just the beginning. You in or are you out? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Burgold Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 Sorry, was slow in editing. I'm certainly in, but the taking and holding of Iraq is a step and probably not the most important one in attacking terrorism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paulstonebraker Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 I would argue the "end point" is the defeat of terrorists and regimes that prop them up. Iraq is just the beginning. You in or are you out? i am glad u agree we must pwn teh noobs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
portisizzle Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 i am glad u agree we must pwn teh noobs I thngk u r hey fuul. ur eh kowurd. Butt moss de-fin-hat-y eh noob. sur eue dunt bhelog en Eraqw? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon the Black Posted November 21, 2005 Share Posted November 21, 2005 Jealousy begets hatred. Shall we instead stoop to depths of socialism to make the "rest of the world" stop hating us? Further, if the rest of the world hates us, why do they take billions of our money? And if you say that we are stupid for giving these countries that hate us money then............you and I can agree to stop sending the mooches of the world cash. While jealousy does account for a degree of anti-Americanism outside the USA, it hardly explains all of it. And nobody has brought up the "depths of socialism." But really, have you no idea of history? To say that America is the "first" free organized society would be silly; to say that it is the "only" one is downright laughable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 Sorry, was slow in editing. I'm certainly in, but the taking and holding of Iraq is a step and probably not the most important one in attacking terrorism. I feel it is a important step in demonstrating the commitment to eradicating terrorists and perhaps more important, a change from the methods used in reguards to the people of the Middle East in the past. The responses from the Sunnis after the US freed the people being tortured by the Shiite militia demonstrate progress,as well as Sistani working to maintain order give me hope it is not a pipedream . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 How can we have an honest discussion about this if people continue to ignor the importance of our physical position in the middle east.The argument is less about the fact that we have achieved goals. Rather, it is about getting people to understand why the goals we have achieved will have a positive impact on every person living on Earth. The defeat of terrorism as we know it is in full swing. Why every peace loving person on Earth does not buy into the destruction of terrorists and the regimes that prop them up is a question for the ages. Some people think that the "physical position" of our military there is exascerbating the terrorist problem, not quelling it. People around the world have always rallied against "foreign invaders" - look to our own history for how the American colonies felt about those Hessians. Imagine houw you would feel if there were a bunch of Muslim soldiers stationed in Salisbury, MD. Even if they really were there for our own good, we would still resent them and blame them for everything, and eventually take up arms against them. Perhaps if we weren't sitting there being a convenient target for every disgruntled Arab to blame his or her problems on, they might have to look at their own governments and their own ideologies and change something. I too want to destroy all of the terrorists. Unfortunately, I think we might be creating them faster than we can destroy them. I just don't know. It doesn't seem right to leave "with the job half done," but I don't know if this is a job that can ever get "done." Is this really the best way to defeat terrorism? I am not at all sure what we should be doing right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WallyVon Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 The defeat of terrorism as we know it is in full swing. Why every peace loving person on Earth does not buy into the destruction of terrorists and the regimes that prop them up is a question for the ages. Why would I buy into it when terrorist attacks are increasing, and there are more terrorists now than there ever have been?? I'm sensible. When I see a dramatic upswing in terrorist attacks, I don't believe we are winning the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
autographcollector Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 Why would I buy into it when terrorist attacks are increasing, and there are more terrorists now than there ever have been??I'm sensible. When I see a dramatic upswing in terrorist attacks, I don't believe we are winning the war. Got a link on that? Show me where the calculations show more terrorist now than ever? What is a terrorist? What we get is more media coverage of terrorism. Terrorism has been occuring for years. Ever hear of the IRA? Your too young to know how this occurs in history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WallyVon Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 Got a link on that?Show me where the calculations show more terrorist now than ever? What is a terrorist? What we get is more media coverage of terrorism. Terrorism has been occuring for years. Ever hear of the IRA? Your too young to know how this occurs in history. More terrorist attacks are occuring now than ever before in the history of the world. More terrorist attacks=more terrorists. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
autographcollector Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 Got a link? Show me the stats. What classifies a terrorist attack? Where do you get your facts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 Why would I buy into it when terrorist attacks are increasing, and there are more terrorists now than there ever have been??I'm sensible. When I see a dramatic upswing in terrorist attacks, I don't believe we are winning the war. Have you noted the targets of the attacks have spread to include fellow muslims? Have you noted the response to these? Do you think maybe it is a sign of desperation ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomerics Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 Got a link? Show me the stats. What classifies a terrorist attack?Where do you get your facts? I'll dig one up if you really want, but it is pretty self explanatory. We are creating more terrorists then we are killing, that much is self evident. THe other self evident part is that only 10% of the terrorists are forign now, they are all Iraqi's. So lets put it this way, If I get the facts you are so looking for, what will your position be? Will you agree that we are doing more harm then good if terrorism is increasing? Will you admit that our presence in Iraq is actually fueling the terrorism, and creating more terrorists ie. Iraqi terrorists? I'd like to know your answers BEFORE I get the facts. I've gon out to many times just to have people disappear when I get what they ask for, so I am looking for a position from you IF I prove what Wally said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WallyVon Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 Got a link? Show me the stats. What classifies a terrorist attack?Where do you get your facts? Well its hard to give you statistics, since the government has decided not to release them since it would make our president look bad. A few independent websites have charted the known terrorist attacks, though, and created a database. The attached graph was created using tools and data from this website: http://www.tkb.org/ChartModule.jsp This is how you create the graph: step 1: select number of incidents, check both international and domestic, click line graph, and click 2 dimensional step 2: click region, and change the first date from 1968 to 1992 (just to compare Clinton and Bush, shall we??). Make sure it is set to yearly and not monthly. step 3: press "select all", so that every region is selected. Then click "graph selections together in one line", because otherwise it is too confusing. step 4: there is the graph!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomerics Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 Have you noted the targets of the attacks have spread to include fellow muslims?Have you noted the response to these? Do you think maybe it is a sign of desperation ? TWA, why do you think it is desperation? These are Iraqi's that are terrorists now, not the forigners. 80% of Iraqi's want us to leave and 45% say attacks on out troops are justified (65% in Maysan Province). Those are numbers that cause an INCREASE of insurgency, and not out of desperation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WallyVon Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 Do you think maybe it is a sign of desperation ? I won't address your other two points because they aren't relevant. This point, however, is a Republican talking point so I'll address it. ------- How the heck would I know if it is a sign of desperation?? Somehow I doubt it. When Republicans say things like this it seems to me to be a search for answers to justify a particular opinion, instead of a search for the CORRECT answers. I don't think desperation can justify the incredible increase we have seen over the last few years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chomerics Posted November 22, 2005 Share Posted November 22, 2005 Just for the Middle East Reigon from Wally's link. . . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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