Definition of a fan?

[Thinking Skins]

I got into an argument with a friend about a thread I started this summer which presented an argument against Monk going to the Hall of Fame. Now people are arguing about their displeasure with Gibbs's decision to bench Ramsey.

In light of this, I see members of Extremeskins saying that anyone who posts arguments against Gibbs is not a Redskins fan. My friend said that since I wasn't 100% convinced about Monk in the Hall, I'm not a true fan. I don't get these opinions.

So I'm reall sure what you guys think the definition of a fan is?

If I say I'm a fan, am I supposed to walk blindly behind Gibbs, supporting everything he does, even the things we disagree with? Are we allowed to make negative statements against the team and still be a fan? What about the owner, can somebody say they don't like him and still be a fan?

When does the question about rooting for the Redskins to win games come in? How important is that?

Thats the question I see as most important, and any other questions about me being a fan should be based on me rooting for or against this team; Not because I say that Gibbs handled this wrong.

So lets stop all these BS comments about "man you don't like Gibbs, that means you're a Cowboy fan" !

[Art]

Bo,

You're not seeing people say that anyone who posts arguments against Gibbs is not a Redskins fan. This is what people who want to make idiotic statements say when they are engaged, but, people can make reasonably intelligent statements and largely not draw any concern.

Unfortunately, we've come to an odd place where suggesting that a hero to fans who is known to be one of the least egocentric coaches in the world and a man of high character probably deserves better than some of the inflammatory language directed his way in support of a QB who's never done anything to merit our love is somehow suggesting we should trust Gibbs.

I've said before, no one was a more harsh critic of Gibbs than I was last year due to his failure coaching. I've said here I don't think the move to Brunell is the right one, though I acknowledge wondering what we might be as a team if Brunell is the guy we saw in the preseason. In any case, it is possible to make statements against Gibbs and be perfectly fan-like.

Sadly, most of the negative comments are absent that quality.

[herrmag]

If I have to say "thank you" to Art one more time, I'm going to be sick. But Art pretty much said everything I have to say about the subject in question.

[pilotperk]

Good post! I called everyone I know the second I heard Gibbs was on his way back to DC because I was so excited. Just knew he was the missing piece to our much scrabbled puzzle; however after a year and a half we have made no improvements where it counts, wins and losses. I appreciate Gibbs, I think he is a great man and deserves all praise for his 1st term with the team. However, I’m so disappointed in his decisions he has made since returning and the effects of them I honestly would not care if he was to quit tomorrow. I say that because I am a REDSKINS fan not a Gibbs fan, I want to win or at least not have my team be the laughing stock of the NFL. I would not pay for season tix every year and travel from Fla if I were not a loyal skins fan thru and thru. God please let Joe Gibbs prove to the 85% of the people out there including myself that what we think is the wrong move prove to be the right one, because on paper and history of MB this give us NO chance.

[Die Hard]

Good post! I called everyone I know the second I heard Gibbs was on his way back to DC because I was so excited. Just knew he was the missing piece to our much scrabbled puzzle; however after a year and a half we have made no improvements where it counts, wins and losses. I appreciate Gibbs, I think he is a great man and deserves all praise for his 1st term with the team. However, I’m so disappointed in his decisions he has made since returning and the effects of them I honestly would not care if he was to quit tomorrow. I say that because I am a REDSKINS fan not a Gibbs fan, I want to win or at least not have my team be the laughing stock of the NFL. I would not pay for season tix every year and travel from Fla if I were not a loyal skins fan thru and thru. God please let Joe Gibbs prove to the 85% of the people out there including myself that what we think is the wrong move prove to be the right one, because on paper and history of MB this give us NO chance.

No improvements in a year and a half huh? Try 17 games... 1 year and 1 game. And this year, he's 1-0. That's a start.

You don't deserve to have Gibbs prove you wrong. You don't have an appreciation for the game of football, the players, the coaches... or the NFL.

The fact that you can't even appreciate a 1-0 record indicates this. You not only want to win.... you want to win in X fashion or you cannot appreciate it.

It's pathetic. I don't care whether you fly to Washington to watch every single game. You don't have an appreciation for the sport.

You do it for self-satisfaction. You do it because you want to brag that you do it. And you want to brag at how great your team is... and how awesome it would be if your team won the Super Bowl every year.

You've got the mentality of a teenager.

You are what is wrong with sports. You are the type of person/parent that drives people out of volunteering for coaching.

No one is going to stop you from watching the game. But you are not a fan of football or the Washington Redskins. You've got a different agenda.

[WVSkinsfan]

No improvements in a year and a half huh? Try 17 games... 1 year and 1 game. And this year, he's 1-0. That's a start.

You don't deserve to have Gibbs prove you wrong. You don't have an appreciation for the game of football, the players, the coaches... or the NFL.

The fact that you can't even appreciate a 1-0 record indicates this. You not only want to win.... you want to win in X fashion or you cannot appreciate it.

It's pathetic. I don't care whether you fly to Washington to watch every single game. You don't have an appreciation for the sport.

You do it for self-satisfaction. You do it because you want to brag that you do it. And you want to brag at how great your team is... and how awesome it would be if your team won the Super Bowl every year.

You've got the mentality of a teenager.

You are what is wrong with sports. You are the type of person/parent that drives people out of volunteering for coaching.

No one is going to stop you from watching the game. But you are not a fan of football or the Washington Redskins. You've got a different agenda.

Don't hold nothing back Die Hard!!! :laugh: :laugh:

[Manasseh]

No improvements in a year and a half huh? Try 17 games... 1 year and 1 game. And this year, he's 1-0. That's a start.

You don't deserve to have Gibbs prove you wrong. You don't have an appreciation for the game of football, the players, the coaches... or the NFL.

The fact that you can't even appreciate a 1-0 record indicates this. You not only want to win.... you want to win in X fashion or you cannot appreciate it.

It's pathetic. I don't care whether you fly to Washington to watch every single game. You don't have an appreciation for the sport.

You do it for self-satisfaction. You do it because you want to brag that you do it. And you want to brag at how great your team is... and how awesome it would be if your team won the Super Bowl every year.

You've got the mentality of a teenager.

You are what is wrong with sports. You are the type of person/parent that drives people out of volunteering for coaching.

No one is going to stop you from watching the game. But you are not a fan of football or the Washington Redskins. You've got a different agenda.

So are staff members held to the same standards and rules concerning personal attacks as the rest of us?

[theartofmonk]

A true fan sees the glass as half full and a fair-weather fan sees it as half empty. They're both seeing the same thing but it's the question of pessimism vs. optimism. When the glass is empty, fair-weather finds another glass. On the other hand, the true fan fills the glass back up & sticks it out through thick & thin.

In addition to their paychecks, this year's Redskins are playing their hearts out for the FANS. Our knee-jerk nitpicking for the sake of immediate gratification is the equivalent of booing the home team - that's just plain tacky. I've been a fan since '83. I'm as frustrated as anyone else with one losing season after another. Now we have a spark burning. We need to encourage it as best we can instead of snuffing it out. We WON Sunday & people are mad about it. Is this Bizarro World, or what?!?!

On a bit of a side note, I wonder how many members of this board have played professional football. How can a spectator be an expert? To quote Nas, "why shoot the breeze about it, when you can BE about?". Let's keep things in perspective here. These guys are shortening their lives for our ENTERTAINMENT - respect that! Don't make it harder by disregarding their efforts for the sake of so-called "criticism". Take the good with the bad & be balanced. A true fan would recognize that & show his/her support. Does that answer your question?

[Manasseh]

I don't think being a fan has anything to do with seeing the glass as half-full or half-empty. A fan forms his own opinion based on whatever limited knowledge he has, and then chooses to cheer for his team regardless if he thinks they may win or lose.

And just because I think Gibbs is making a wrong decision doesn't make me a fair-weather fan. The majority of us who disagree aren't making the claims that we'll follow Ramsey wherever he goes, or that we're quitting on the Redskins.

We're just staking our view that we feel Gibbs is making the wrong choice. On Monday night, we'll still be cheering for the Skins. But if Brunell struggles, we'll all be wondering what Ramsey could have done. And if Brunell does great, then that's great because it means the Redskins will probably have won. But it won't change my opinion on how I feel Ramsey has been treated.

[theartofmonk]

I got into an argument with a friend about a thread I started this summer which presented an argument against Monk going to the Hall of Fame.

Obviously you've only reviewed stat sheets & never watched the man play. He's one of the greatest receivers in league history - even a Cowboys fan would admit that. He had a Super Bowl ring while you were still in diapers, so I'm curious to hear thtis argument - I could use a good laugh. I don't mean to get personal, but Art Monk's talent and contribution to the game is undeniable. This may be one of those "tomAEto/tomAAto" arguments, but I prefer guys who play with class instead of flash. Come on, man.. have a little respect.

[Die Hard]

So are staff members held to the same standards and rules concerning personal attacks as the rest of us?

Actually yes. Oddly, you don't understand or appreciate the rules.

Staff members are allowed to express their opinions. Staff members are also allowed to debate the posts and opinions of others. As foolish, moronic and idiotic as those opinions may be.

What members aren't allowed to do is PERSONALLY attack members. That doesn't apply to the MEMBER'S BELIEFS OR OPINIONS.

Listen, if you thinking telling a person they don't have an appreciation or understanding of the sport of football is offensive (no mean-spirited deroragatory name-calling)... than I apologize.

Is that OK princess?

[theartofmonk]

I don't think being a fan has anything to do with seeing the glass as half-full or half-empty. A fan forms his own opinion based on whatever limited knowledge he has, and then chooses to cheer for his team regardless if he thinks they may win or lose.

And just because I think Gibbs is making a wrong decision doesn't make me a fair-weather fan. The majority of us who disagree aren't making the claims that we'll follow Ramsey wherever he goes, or that we're quitting on the Redskins.

We're just staking our view that we feel Gibbs is making the wrong choice. On Monday night, we'll still be cheering for the Skins. But if Brunell struggles, we'll all be wondering what Ramsey could have done. And if Brunell does great, then that's great because it means the Redskins will probably have won. But it won't change my opinion on how I feel Ramsey has been treated.

I don't recall mentioning Ramsey, Gibbs or Brunell in my post - there seems to be plenty of posts on that issue. I came to this thread to avoid that headache that is the Ramsey/Brunell "controversy" (uggh, let's move on). IMHO, there's not a lot of difference between the 2 QB's. It's all about the team. I gave my :2cents: on THIS thread - what is the definition of a fan. I can understand if you're upset, but I'm not the one who made you that way. Do you have anything else to say about what I actually posted or the topic of the thread? Was my assessment of the fair-weather fan off the mark? Correct me if I'm wrong, but let's keep it on topic.

I know this isn't an Art Monk for HoF thread either, but just make note of my username - forgive me for my enthusiasm. Aren't we all on the same side here?

[dreamingwolf]

to me fans are fanatics, and they always seek the posititive in the source of their fanaticism. The term fan is watered down though, for example if you asked my good friend if hes a cowboy fan he would answer "Yes". Then if you ask him who is their starting quarter back he will answer "I have no idea"(you can even ask him just to name one starter), for that matter its a pretty fun game to play when you meet people in the DC area that say they are cowboys fans I find a good % of them cant name starters.

So it depends how fan is being defined outside of its dictionary definition, cause even an enthusiast can be interpreted as having an irrational consumption of the source of their fanaticism. I dont see how you can be a fan and be objective, I can see the Redskins being your favorite team but your not fanatic over them thus allowing you a clear look arround the league. I will find some way to rationalize how we can win every game day, regardless of how pie in the sky it is.

I dont think people who are objective and can poo poo the team when they feel the organization sucks in some way dont favor the Redskins, Im sure the Redskins are their favorite team they just arent fanatical about it. the only time I tend to go into the complain mode is after a loss walking back to the car but the next day Im already getting in beat the next team mode.

Now all the people calling the haters cowboy fans in Redskin clothes I think has to do with the rash of september 2005 registers posting hater threads claiming to be Redskin fans, they are just haters who smelled blood in the water from the monday melt down.

It all comes down in how you personally define fan, if a fan covers everyone from the casual football watcher who picks the Redskins as his team to the maniac who thinks we can win every game or its just the maniac who only sees the positive.

[Manasseh]

You've got the mentality of a teenager.

You are what is wrong with sports. You are the type of person/parent that drives people out of volunteering for coaching.

No one is going to stop you from watching the game. But you are not a fan of football or the Washington Redskins. You've got a different agenda.

So these aren't personal attacks? What happened to going "after the idea, not the poster"?

You can attack me all you want. Call me names if that makes you feel better about yourself.

While I don't post much, I have often times voiced my support and appreciation for what you guys have done with Extremeskins. But there's truth in the cliche, "Attitude reflects leadership." And when you guys lead the charge in attacking others, it's little wonder others follow.

[airborneskins]

Is that OK princess?

Look at you.. Getting used to the Daddy thing already.. It's AWESOME isn't it?

[Manasseh]

I don't recall mentioning Ramsey, Gibbs or Brunell in my post - there seems to be plenty of posts on that issue. I came to this thread to avoid that headache that is the Ramsey/Brunell "controversy" (uggh, let's move on). IMHO, there's not a lot of difference between the 2 QB's. It's all about the team. I gave my :2cents: on THIS thread - what is the definition of a fan. I can understand if you're upset, but I'm not the one who made you that way. Do you have anything else to say about what I actually posted or the topic of the thread? Was my assessment of the fair-weather fan off the mark? Correct me if I'm wrong, but let's keep it on topic.

I know this isn't an Art Monk for HoF thread either, but just make note of my username - forgive me for my enthusiasm. Aren't we all on the same side here?

Sorry to introduce an over-discussed and sore subject into this thread. If you read the rest of my post, you'd see it was simply an example of the point I was making.

You said that a fair-weather fan sees the glass as half-empty and a true fan sees the glass as half-full. I simply disagree. I can see the glass as half-empty, or even bare, and yet still choose to cheer for the glass because as a fan, I hope sometimes beyond all reason that what I see is wrong.

I'm simply agreeing with blakman. Being a fan is based more on what team I choose to cheer for rather than if I agree or disagree with evey decision that team makes, or whether even I feel that team has a great chance or poor chance to win its next game.

[Manasseh]

And before I get blasted for my "Remeber the Titans-esque" comment, let me also add that I wish more members would reflect the "normal" attitude of the leadership around here, which is hard-working, thought-provoking, focused on excellence, and providing what has been one of the greatest message boards on the Internet.

[Die Hard]

So these aren't personal attacks? What happened to going "after the idea, not the poster"?

You can attack me all you want. Call me names if that makes you feel better about yourself.

While I don't post much, I have often times voiced my support and appreciation for what you guys have done with Extremeskins. But there's truth in the cliche, "Attitude reflects leadership."

If suggesting somone's opinions would be similar to a teenager's offends you... the next daiquiri is on me OK?

[Die Hard]

And before I get blasted for my "Remeber the Titans-esque" comment, let me also add that I wish more members would reflect the "normal" attitude of the leadership around here, which is hard-working, thought-provoking, focused on excellence, and providing what has been one of the greatest message boards on the Internet.

Thanks, leave that to us. We're doing just fine.

And we appreciate you holding us to such high standards. Let me be the first to say.... we expect the same from you. Where is it where I can find some of your achievements?

[theartofmonk]

Sorry to introduce an over-discussed and sore subject into this thread. If you read the rest of my post, you'd see it was simply an example of the point I was making.

You said that a fair-weather fan sees the glass as half-empty and a true fan sees the glass as half-full. I simply disagree. I can see the glass as half-empty, or even bare, and yet still choose to cheer for the glass because as a fan, I hope sometimes beyond all reason that what I see is wrong.

I'm simply agreeing with blakman. Being a fan is based more on what team I choose to cheer for rather than if I agree or disagree with evey decision that team makes, or whether even I feel that team has a great chance or poor chance to win its next game.

I hear you loud & clear, my Redskin brother. My point remains the same. I agree more with dreamingwolf's eloquent post. I fall into that fanatic category - HUNGRY for the glory of victory. Not to put words in wolf's mouth, but I believe our points are similar. It's about your level of passion. The goal is to win.

[Manasseh]

If suggesting somone's opinions would be similar to a teenager's offends you... the next daiquiri is on me OK?

Offends me? Yeah, that's what I said. Continue to put words in others mouth and deny what's plain to see.

And we appreciate you holding us to such high standards. Let me be the first to say.... we expect the same from you. Where is it where I can find some of your achievements?

Not sure I understand what this means. And I didn't know I had to have a resume of achievements to be a Redskins fan or post here.

[Manasseh]

I hear you loud & clear, my Redskin brother. My point remains the same. I agree more with dreamingwolf's eloquent post. I fall into that fanatic category - HUNGRY for the glory of victory. Not to put words in wolf's mouth, but I believe our points are similar. It's about your level of passion. The goal is to win.

And when that day comes when we do return to glory, we will stand together as Redskins fans - glad that we endured whatever pains and setbacks there were - to now enjoy the sweet taste of victory!

HTTR! :dallasuck

[theartofmonk]

Thanks, leave that to us. We're doing just fine.

And we appreciate you holding us to such high standards. Let me be the first to say.... we expect the same from you. Where is it where I can find some of your achievements?

What does this have to do with the subject of the thread? Couldn't you 2 private message this debate/argument? Just my :2cents:. I finally found an interesting thread & I want to keep it rolling, that's all. Here, this round's on me .

[Die Hard]

What does this have to do with the subject of the thread? Couldn't you 2 private message this debate/argument? Just my :2cents:. I finally found an interesting thread & I want to keep it rolling, that's all. Here, this round's on me .

:refill:

[theartofmonk]

And when that day comes when we do return to glory, we will stand together as Redskins fans - glad that we endured whatever pains and setbacks there were - to now enjoy the sweet taste of victory!

HTTR! :dallasuck

To be honest, I love this organization for what it represents more than it's win-loss record. They represent the capital city of the greatest nation known to mankind. They play SOLID, hard-nosed football (under Gibbs, that is) and no player is bigger than the team (i.e., T.O., "Me"shawn). There's not an ounce of quit in those guys - not a single drop - and it shows on every play. It's bigger than just wins & losses - it's about integrity. Unfortunately, you see less & less of that in the world these days. I know it sounds corny as hell, but the 'Skins (with Gibbs coaching, mind you) are my personal prescription against cynicism & pessimism. They play the game like it's supposed to be played. That's why they're worth over a billion dollars (more than any other professional sports franchise) - what they symbolize to the world is priceless. I don't take that for granted and give them my lifelong support as a result. Consider this post a slight tangent on the fan topic - my :2cents:.