Greatest QB Playoff Choke Ever?

[martino]

The one that comes to my mind right now is Rich Gannon in the SuperBowl against the Bucs. All season he kicked butt but not in that game.

[NVskinsfan]

Originally posted by goskins

That's a good one, but was it Moon alone or a complete and total team choke?

Who is running the show in the playoffs?

Veteren QB????

You betcha!

Could call it a team choke, but a couple of 1st downs and a FG would have sealed it!

[ironmic]

Peyton

[MrSilverMaC]

Originally posted by NVskinsfan

Who is running the show in the playoffs?

Veteren QB????

You betcha!

Could call it a team choke, but a couple of 1st downs and a FG would have sealed it!

Dude, he put up 35 points, I don't know how anyone here can call that a choke job by the QB.

That is the defense all the way. I mean thats ridiculous to expect a qb to have to put up 45 or 49 points just to beat a team.

All the D had to do was hold em at 4 td's which should have been easy for a playoff caliber defense.

[TuckerF]

I can't remember many games where both teams had a chance to win in the last 5 minutes like last year's game. McNabb had kept the Eagles in the game all night - to have a brain fart- or whatever since he doesn't have the courage to admit it- like he did, is as bad a choke as any.

I think that a team might not be competitive like the Bears in a big game but thats more on the team than the QB. Last year was clearly on McNabb everyone but him was into that game. Not only that, but in every playoff game he's had prior to last year he played significantly worse than he did during the year.

[prophet]

i think manning has the torch right now of king of choke

[BG]

Originally posted by HeHateMe

Lets not go that far.

He did have a few bad passes, but we cant say they would scored on those drives anyway.

Dallas was pretty damn good team that year too.

yes, they were damn good, but Neil's favorite reciever was Larry Brown. Those passes he intercepted were no where close to his recievers.

I can't say that it would have been a lock that the Steelers won that game if not for O'Donnell, but it would have been a lock for a much closer game. The game was the first close SB in years. Who knows, but you have to admit that was a wreckless choke on O'Donnells part....

As for the Moon debacle, I attribute that to Houstons a*s for an OC. The head coach killer.

He got Buddy Ryan fired, almost got Cowher fired, got Coughlin fired, got Gregg Williams fired and got himself fired over and over again despite being able to produce high caliber offenses.

His problem is that he never figured out how to protect a lead.

[miranda]

Originally posted by TuckerF

I can't remember many games where both teams had a chance to win in the last 5 minutes like last year's game. McNabb had kept the Eagles in the game all night - to have a brain fart- or whatever since he doesn't have the courage to admit it- like he did, is as bad a choke as any.

I think that a team might not be competitive like the Bears in a big game but thats more on the team than the QB. Last year was clearly on McNabb everyone but him was into that game. Not only that, but in every playoff game he's had prior to last year he played significantly worse than he did during the year.

Anyone calling McNabb a choker apparently didn't watch the team the Pats played the game before. Manning is bringing choking to a whole other level so far in his career.

[Thinking Skins]

Originally posted by skinsfan080

If they lost that lead, it was alot more than just Moon.

But he had a chance to win it with 2 mins to go, and he couldn't. Thats a characteristic of a choker.

[Thinking Skins]

Alright Mr. TheSteve, here's my main point.

If a team can continually go through the regular season with ease.

If they can mount a record of 13-3 or so, year after year.

If they can manhandle every opponent they face in the regular season.

Then we expect big things from them in the playoffs.

If Marino's team sucked so badly, then HOW WAS HE ABLE TO BREAK SO MANY PASSING RECORDS? C'mon, he wasn't playing for the Cardinals or the Bucks. His team was a legitimate contender, with pro bowl calibre talent all around him.

Why is it that Marino could destroy a team in the regular season; beat them by 40 points or so; but then lose to them in the playoffs?

The fact that he beat them kinda implies that he CAN beat them. So why doesn't he?

CAUSE HE DIDN'T SHOW UP IN THE BIG GAMES!!!!!

[Thinking Skins]

Originally posted by scottb

Of course there are variables. What I am questioning is the value placed upon the SB variable. I believe it is over valued because of the infuence the other 23 starters, special teams, and coaches in winning one. Other players also influence QB stats, but not to the same degree. Furthermore, when players like Dilfer (sooo average) & Hostetiler (injury fill-in) participate, you realize that the team got them there, not the QB. There are a lot of HOF's that never had good enough teams to take them there (Sonny anyone?), and not all players on teams that go are that good. So ike you said, they need to be judged by what they did with what they had, which means sometimes a SB shoudn't be considered.

So you think that we shouldn't look for winners, huh?

Or is it that when we win, the credit shouldn't go towards the team LEADER?

Nah, I think what you're saying is that its cool to give the leader credit when we win; but when we lose, its not his fault, right?

A company has thousands of employees, but when something goes wrong they don't blame everybody, they blame the person in charge, and thats who they fire.

So Dan Marino YOU'RE FIRED!!!!!

[GrimReefa]

It most certainly was Neil O'Donnell. Those two picks he threw to Brown had no discernible target.

I mean there was no one around the guy.

Unless he was trying to throw that game, O'Donnell's performance was inexplicable, save one word: CHOKE.

It's not Marino because, as has been pointed out, you need a running game to get you through the playoffs. It's not McNabb, because until last season he was Philly's whole offense. It's not Manning, because he never had a team as good as the New England team that keeps beating him. It's not Kelly because Norwood should have won the first Buffalo Super Bowl, and both the Redskins and the Cowboys had much better teams than the Bills when he played against them.

It has to be O'Donnell.

[TheSteve]

Originally posted by blakman211

Alright Mr. TheSteve, here's my main point.

If a team can continually go through the regular season with ease...

Since 1983, Miami's records:

83: 12-4-Lost in Div. Playoffs to Seattle.

84:14-2, lost in the superbowl to your main man, Joe Montana.

85:12-4, Lost in Championship game to New England.

86:8-8, Did not make the playoffs.

87:8-7, strike season. Missed playoffs.

88:6-10, missed playoffs.

89:8-8, missed playoffs.

90: 12-4, lost to Buffalo in div(after beating Montana in the wild card, a Montana with Marcus Allen).

91:8-8 missed playoffs.

92: 11-5, lost to Buffalo in div.

93:9-7, missed playoffs.

94: 10-6, lost to San Diego(Who went on to upset Pittsburgh, AFC Champions)

95: 9-7, lost to Buffalo in wild card.

96:8-8, missed playoffs.

97: 9-7, lost in wild card to New England.

98: 10-6, BEAT BUFFALO in Wild Card(Will come back to this later). Lost to enventual Super Bowl Champion Denver Broncos.

99: Marino's last year, 9-7, Lost in Div. to Jacksonville in what had to be Marino's worst playoff game 62-7.

Now correct me if I'm wrong, but it doesn't seem like they walked through every regular season with ease as you seem to state with their 'talented and supererior team. In fact, it their records after '85 when the veteran team Marino was drafted onto failed to win it all(ran into the 49ers and then the Patriots, AFC Champs who lost to the lucky Bears) were exactly like an above average team who was missing its final piece to contend for a title.

Marino's prime years seem to be from 90-94, where Buffalo defeated him twice, and twice they missed the playoffs. And another time they lost to San Diego. Does it not seem odd to you that a team as you say with, "with pro bowl calibre talent all around him. " would miss the playoffs twice in the prime of his career?

Nay, I say to you he didn't have pro bowl calibre talent around him since the end of the 85 season and after that the team was rebuilt into a high octane offense predicated on getting the ball down field. They couldn't do anything else, not with the likes of Terry Kirby running the draw on second and ten. It's a wonder Marino lasted 17 years in the league with all the hard hits he took.

If they can mount a record of 13-3 or so, year after year.

Look above again at their season by season record. The only time in Marino's career that he had 13 wins or more was in his 2nd season in which they went 14-2(With relative ease) and lost to the 49ers in the Super Bowl. It was something like what Big Ben did with the Steelers team of veterans, only better because of the numbers he put up as a second year player.

If they can manhandle every opponent they face in the regular season.Then we expect big things from them in the playoffs.

Can you back this up? Because of your statements littered throughout your post I've gone through Miami's past seasons and I have the victories and the margin of victories and I don't see that many seasons where they manhandled all their opponents. I didn't even see them routinely beat Buffalo in the manner which you have suggested. Most of the time they split, especially in the seasons that Buffalo defeated them.

If Marino's team sucked so badly, then HOW WAS HE ABLE TO BREAK SO MANY PASSING RECORDS? C'mon, he wasn't playing for the Cardinals or the Bucks. His team was a legitimate contender, with pro bowl calibre talent all around him.

His team didn't 'suck' but it certainly was not comprised of top of the line talent, and if you want to protest this claim then it is on you to back yourself up. How many pro bowlers on the OFFENSIVE side of the ball did Marino play with in his career? How many of them were not on the OFFENSIVE LINE? How many skill position players? O.J. McDuffie? How many defensive players did he play with who were pro bowlers at the time he was playing with them? NAmes please. You're asserting things I don't remember. Marino didn't play with a superbly talented team any more than a lot of other NFL QB's of the time. Jim Kelly had more pro bowl and hall of fame elibile talent around him than Marino did.

Why is it that Marino could destroy a team in the regular season; beat them by 40 points or so; but then lose to them in the playoffs?p

Since 1983, the start of Marino's Career, Wins and Losses against the Buffalo Bills:

83:

@ Buffalo W 12 - 0

Buffalo L 35 - 38

84*:

@ Buffalo W 21 - 17

Buffalo W 38 - 7

85**:

@ Buffalo W 23 - 14

Buffalo W 28 - 0

86**:

Buffalo W 27 - 14

@ Buffalo W 34 - 24

87:

Buffalo L 31 - 34

@ Buffalo L 0 - 27

88:

@ Buffalo L 6 - 9

Buffalo L 6 - 31

89:

Buffalo L 24 - 27

@ Buffalo L 17 - 31

90:

Buffalo W 30 - 7

@ Buffalo L 14 - 24

@ Buffalo L 34 - 44 --playoff game.

91:

@ Buffalo L 31 - 35

Buffalo L 27 - 41

92:

@ Buffalo W 37 - 10

Buffalo L 20 - 26

Buffalo L 10 - 29 --playoff game

93:

@ Buffalo W 22 - 13

Buffalo L 34 - 47

94:

@ Buffalo L 11 - 21

Buffalo L 31 - 42

95:

Buffalo W 23 - 6

@ Buffalo L 20 - 23

@ Buffalo L 22 - 37 --playoff game

96:

@ Buffalo W 21 - 7

Buffalo W 16 - 14

97:

@ Buffalo L 6 - 9

Buffalo W 30 - 13

98:

Buffalo W 13 - 7

@ Buffalo L 24 - 30

Buffalo W 24 - 17 --playoff game

99:

Buffalo L 18 - 23

@ Buffalo L 3 - 23

Whew...That took a long time to type up and copy and paste. Don't worry, I don't remember all of that.

Now to your points:

Marino never destroyed Buffalo. He swept them all of 4 times. 3 of those times were in the first 5 years of his career, 84,85, and 86. Is it not ironic that after that team was rebuilt and while Marino was experiencing defeat for the first time in his career in the later eighties, that the Dolphins experienced a mini-Cowboy of sorts with the Bills? The Dolphins lost to Buffalo six straight times, that is three years. Suffice it to say they got in his head.

From 1987 to 1995 the Dolphins were 4-17 against Buffalo. That does not sound like destruction. In the prime of his career he couldn't beat Buffalo, which you claim he could. They were in his head. In those prime years and any year where they met in the playoffs, the dolphins ALWAYS beat them the first matchup of the regular season. Buffalo ALWAYS took the last two(the second regular season game and the playoff game). In a game of matchups, coaching schemes, and luck what does that tell you? I think Marv Levy had figured the Dolphins out. Every year that they would beat Buffalo, the Bills had them figured out the second time around and they would lose in the playoffs. This is how I thought it was, but you had to go making these comments that made me check and make sure I was right. I was and still AM right.

The fact that he beat them kinda implies that he CAN beat them. So why doesn't he?

Every year they played Buffalo in the playoffs they split in the regular season, which at first glance implies they CAN beat them, but when you look at it more closely you see they never beat them LATE in the season which is critical for developing confidence for the playoffs. Even so, Marino DID FINALLY beat Buffalo in 1998 at the tailend of his career, only to be upstaged by a much more complete Denver Bronco team and Elway(Who was also searching for his first ring and got it behind Terrell Davis).

CAUSE HE DIDN'T SHOW UP IN THE BIG GAMES!!!!!

[/b]

I don't know, against San Francisco he was 29-50 for 318 yards with a 58% completion percentage against a great defensive team. He had only 1 TD and 2 INTs. I think that's a heck of aperformance for a 2nd year player with the offense riding solely on his back. Anytime you throw it 50 times you obviously don't have a ground game and everyone knows you're passing. It's no suprise Montana won.

The Following year he passed it 48 times for 2TDs and 2INTs in a loss to New England.

Against Buffalo in 1990 he threw it 49 times. 3 TDs and 2 INTS.

Against Buffalo in 1992 he threw it 45 times, 1 TD 2 INTs.

Against San Diego in 1994, he threw it 38 times, 24 completions, 3 TDs 0 INTs, 64% from the field, they lost 22-21. One point. That game could have went either way. I certainly wouldn't pin the blame on my QB with numbers like that, would you?

Against Buffalo in 1995 he passed an insanely absurd 64 times, completed 33 of them for 2TDs and 3 INTS.

Against New England in 1997(Bill Parcells) he passed 43 times completing 17 of them for 2 INTs in a 17-3 loss. Bill Belechek is tough, and even though the 1997 Dolphins aren't the Colts, I still have to say that's a pretty bad performance by Marino.

Against Buffalo, 1998 Wild Card: 23-34, 235, .676 completion percentage, 1 TD 1 INT. They won.

Against Denver, 1998 Divisional: 26-37, .70 completion percentage, 0TDs, 2 INTs, 38-3. Denver was the better team with the much better offensive machine. 70% is not a choke job.

1999, final season:

at Jacksonville 25 11 95 .440 1 2 - 2/14 L 7-62

If I remember correctly, Jimmy Johnson pulled Marino out of that disgrace in Jacksonville. And Johnson's defense was supposed to be so good. They sucked in that game.

Really Blackman, I contest your notion that Marino did not show up in the big games. Rather, I propose to you his crime was that he tried to do too much. The stats are there. In his playoff career the Dolphins had such an inbalanced team that in his playoff losses he only had under 40 pass attempts in games he played through twice. In those two times he did not have horrible numbers.

One was against San Diego where his numbers were better than alot of super bowl winning QBs and they lost anyway(by a field goal I believe at the end, or a missed FG by MIA, I dont remember but I could be wrong).

The second time was against a Denver team that really only was evenly matched with one team that year and that's Pittsburgh. Denver was the enventual Super Bowl Champions and Miami was not on their level teamwise or coaching wise and if you say otherwise I'll laugh at you.

The Dolphins throughout Marino's tenure were an unbalanced team that tried to beat everyone by passing over them. They had no running game. And even in the years where their defense was good it could not stop offenses who had a ground game. It was a sunshine defense built in the warm weather that couldn't hold it down come rain and snow. Cold weather, incidentally that Don Shula thought was great for Marino to pass in. Not that you can really blame him considering they had nobody to run the ball.

If you consider having to pass it in the upper 40's every year in the playoffs when EVERYONE knows that's what you're doing and then not being able to successfully do it is choking then maybe you should go talk to Mike Martz. he had Marshall Faulk in his prime and the only reason why he couldn't win another Super Bowl is because he must not have been watching the Dolphins get beat every year when they COULDNT hand the ball of to Faulk or Stephen Jackson when the defense was playing pass.

When a QB routinely has to force plays and make nothing out of something like Marino had to do most of his career and was able to do it as well as he did even when everyone knew what he was doing, I'm going to have to say he's right up there to be named the best ever. I don't really care if you want to rank Montana up there as I haven't researched Montana enough, but I don't think any other QB of Marino's era was as good as he was. I'm sorry if that is offensive to you because you're too busy kissing Elway and Montana to realize Marino's not a choker.:laugh:

[MidwayMonster31]

Originally posted by Bigredskin77

No way the greatest QB choke i have ever seen is Jim Miller from the bears. The bears where 13-3 that year and lost the first playoff game they had and it wasn.t even close at all.

It wasn't his fault his Offensive line bailed on him. The biggest quarterback related chokes I've seen were O'Donnell in Super Bowl 30, or Favre last year, or even Peyton Manning against New England in '03-'04. Other ones include Jim Kelly in the last 3 Super Bowl losses and Rich Gannon against Tampa. Marino had 2, against New England in '85-'86 and Buffalo in '92-'93. The biggest near choke was the Saints against the Rams in 2000-'01.

[CrossWalker]

"I'd have to say Neil O'Donnell in the Superbowl vs. the Boys.

He just gave them the game. It was pathetic. The Steelers were a damn good team that year too."

by BG

I have to agree, that was absolutley horrible.

[Thinking Skins]

Originally posted by Cartoons82

. . . or Favre last year . . .

YESSS!!!

Farve is another of the supposed great QB's who continuously makes the playoffs and loses.

He'll throw a pic in the last 2 minutes and the announcers will blame the WR's or say that "he almost made a miraculous throw."

As long as he loses games that way, he'll be on the list for number 1 choke artist.

[CrossWalker]

Originally posted by blakman211

YESSS!!!

Farve is another of the supposed great QB's who continuously makes the playoffs and loses.

He'll throw a pic in the last 2 minutes and the announcers will blame the WR's or say that "he almost made a miraculous throw."

As long as he loses games that way, he'll be on the list for number 1 choke artist.

Who was he playing against when he threw that horrendous pick from his knees? It's been a long time since it happened but that moment is right there with Jake Plummer's left handed int vs the Chiefs last year and Frerotte's Head bang into the wall that cost us vs the Giants years back.

[twist]

Originally posted by Bigredskin77

No way the greatest QB choke i have ever seen is Jim Miller from the bears. The bears where 13-3 that year and lost the first playoff game they had and it wasn.t even close at all.

I hope you didn't mean that seriously.

First of all Jim and that bears team both really stank and had a lot of lucky breaks to get to 13-3. Second of all you can't really call that a QB choke since his coller bone was broken in the fist half of this game by Hugh Douglas.