Thinking Skins Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 Who do you think it is? Dan Marino? Jim Kelly? Manning? Schreoder? Culpepper? Moon? Cunningham? McNabb? Scott Mitchell? (or whoever else was QB for Detroit back when Barry was there)? The list can go on and on. Who do you think it is? My vote goes for Dan Marino. The guy is supposed to be the superman of QB's but he is repeadedly beat in the playoffs by the likes of Jim Kelly and other QBs who are supposed to be below him. I mean are these the stats of a HOF QB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
@DCGoldPants Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 that's a tough one. I wouldn't vote for McNabb though. That was the greatest Coaching coach in NFL history. Who calls a play where a WR/RB is in the middle of the field when you're out of timeouts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jimbo Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 I don't know if you can really blame it on Warren Moon but when Buffalo came from WAAAAAY down, behind Frank Reich, to beat the Oilers in the playoffs, THAT was a MAJOR choke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted August 6, 2005 Author Share Posted August 6, 2005 Some people have on their resume that they went to the playoffs for X number of years in a row; but if you made the playoffs consistantly over a long period of time and didn't win it all; you've got the writings of CHOKE on your resume. Thats why I kinda want to put Farve on this list, even though he's won something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BG Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 I'd have to say Neil O'Donnell in the Superbowl vs. the Boys. He just gave them the game. It was pathetic. The Steelers were a damn good team that year too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSteve Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 Name the last Super Bowl team who didn't have a great RB? Marino never had one. Farve, Elway(Who coincidentally got the monkey off his back when he paired with TD, but now he's the greatest QB ever despite his numorous chokes before), Dilfer, Warner, Aikman, Manning, Brady..oh wait, the Patriots are an exception--Although they had Dillion and really I'd take Faulk and Smith over anyone the Dolphins had in the 90's. I think it's funny that there is a lot of anti Marino sentiment now that he's going into the hall of fame. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KingTaylor22 Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 Peyton Manning agianst the Pats... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bigredskin77 Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 No way the greatest QB choke i have ever seen is Jim Miller from the bears. The bears where 13-3 that year and lost the first playoff game they had and it wasn.t even close at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted August 6, 2005 Author Share Posted August 6, 2005 Originally posted by Bigredskin77 No way the greatest QB choke i have ever seen is Jim Miller from the bears. The bears where 13-3 that year and lost the first playoff game they had and it wasn.t even close at all. haha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NVskinsfan Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 Moon against Buffalo...35-3 lead...no EXCUSES! Should have had that game!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted August 6, 2005 Author Share Posted August 6, 2005 Originally posted by TheSteve Name the last Super Bowl team who didn't have a great RB? Marino never had one. Farve, Elway(Who coincidentally got the monkey off his back when he paired with TD, but now he's the greatest QB ever despite his numorous chokes before), Dilfer, Warner, Aikman, Manning, Brady..oh wait, the Patriots are an exception--Although they had Dillion and really I'd take Faulk and Smith over anyone the Dolphins had in the 90's. I think it's funny that there is a lot of anti Marino sentiment now that he's going into the hall of fame. Tell me why Marino could beat a team in the regular season, convincingly, but then lose to that same team in the playoffs? EVERY YEAR? The fact that he beat the team before means that The Dolphins were a good enough team to do it. The point blank reason is that he always CHOKED. So why should he get all the praise of the greatest of all time (as he did in earlier threads) if he ALWAYS CHOAKED in the playoffs? Even the early Elway, who had no running game, could MAKE the Super Bowl. He may have wished he didnt when he saw the final scores, but at least he made it. He made the big game only once and Montana had a fields day with him. People just need to know where Marino ranks, and its nowhere near Montana. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HeHateMe Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 Originally posted by BG I'd have to say Neil O'Donnell in the Superbowl vs. the Boys. He just gave them the game. It was pathetic. The Steelers were a damn good team that year too. Lets not go that far. He did have a few bad passes, but we cant say they would scored on those drives anyway. Dallas was pretty damn good team that year too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lurman Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 Originally posted by NVskinsfan Moon against Buffalo...35-3 lead...no EXCUSES! Should have had that game!!! You think the quarterback choked? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
skinsfan080 Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 Originally posted by Lurman You think the quarterback choked? If they lost that lead, it was alot more than just Moon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Walking Deadman Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 Originally posted by NVskinsfan Moon against Buffalo...35-3 lead...no EXCUSES! Should have had that game!!! That's a good one, but was it Moon alone or a complete and total team choke? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Octane67 Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 Jim Kelly has my vote....He went to the Super Bowl 4 times in a row and failed to get the job done... Against New York in '91 he throws barely 200 yds with no TDs... Against Washington in '92 he throws 4 ints... Against Dallas in '93 he throws 2 ints on 7 attempts and gets knocked out of the game.... In the Dallas rematch in '94 he throws a 4th qtr pivotal interception to James Washington. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSteve Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 Originally posted by blakman211 Tell me why Marino could beat a team in the regular season, convincingly, but then lose to that same team in the playoffs? EVERY YEAR? The fact that he beat the team before means that The Dolphins were a good enough team to do it. The point blank reason is that he always CHOKED. So why should he get all the praise of the greatest of all time (as he did in earlier threads) if he ALWAYS CHOAKED in the playoffs? Even the early Elway, who had no running game, could MAKE the Super Bowl. He may have wished he didnt when he saw the final scores, but at least he made it. He made the big game only once and Montana had a fields day with him. People just need to know where Marino ranks, and its nowhere near Montana. I'm sure Montana would have won all those rings with Marino's team. A prime Jerry Rice can make a QB look a lot better than he actually is. Not stating that Montana is overrated, but just as Owens and Moss(When they have their ehad on straight) can make average QBs look good and good QBs look great and great QBs look greater, Rice had the same effect. I could careless which QB your kissing butt with, but to me Marino is near the top regardless of the fact that Buffalo was his kryptonite. Maybe if Miami really wanted Marino to go up into Buffalo in the playoffs and win they would have gotten a RB who could run worth a dang in the cold weather. Do you really think Dallas shredded them, and Washington shredded them, and the Giants beat them because their QB's were better than Marino? Nope, they could all run the ball. Buffalo had to respect that part of their game. God forbid Marv Levy run up against a balanced team. If you want to rank QB's solely on Super Bowl appearances that's fine, but there's no way I'm putting Jim Kelly or even Elway ahead of Marino just because they made the super bowl more times. By the way, Marino's career playoff QB rating was above 82 at the age of 33. It can be argued he stayed around too long trying to chase that ring with his shot knees, but I think it's a little silly to state he was mediocre in the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottb Posted August 6, 2005 Share Posted August 6, 2005 I really hate how the QB gets so much credit/blame for the team. So.... If Christie makes that easy FG against the Giants, then Kelly suddenly becomes a better QB. If Elway retires 2 years earlier, then he becomes a worse QB..even though his last 2 years were not his best a a player. Dilfer, McMahon, Ripien, Theisman, Johnson, Stabler, Warner, Dawson, Farve, Young, Namath, Morrall, Williams, Simms, & Hostetler were all better quarterbacks than Marino just because they helped win a Superbowl? This Suberbowl or bust perspective for rating players is rather narrow minded and does not reflect what a team effort it takes to go all the way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted August 6, 2005 Author Share Posted August 6, 2005 Originally posted by scottb This Suberbowl or bust perspective for rating players is rather narrow minded and does not reflect what a team effort it takes to go all the way. Its not a SuperBowl or bust perspective. But a key concept in being the BEST is being able to perform in the big games. I mean, You don't become a genearl because you beat a bunch of 3rd world countries and lost to the big dogs. So why should a QB who had a field day in the regular season and choked time after time in the playoffs be considered up there with the best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted August 6, 2005 Author Share Posted August 6, 2005 Originally posted by scottb Dilfer, McMahon, Ripien, Theisman, Johnson, Stabler, Warner, Dawson, Farve, Young, Namath, Morrall, Williams, Simms, & Hostetler were all better quarterbacks than Marino just because they helped win a Superbowl? Have you ever heard of a multiple variable formula. Think of it like the QB ratings. QB ratings take many things into account: yards, completion percentage, TD's, INT's, etc. Then based on these ratings we are able to judge QB's. All I'm saying (in referance to Marino) is that if you add Super Bowl appearances and Super Bowl victories to this rating system, then Marino's stock plummits. Even if you add the ways in which he lost the games his stock goes further. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted August 6, 2005 Author Share Posted August 6, 2005 Originally posted by TheSteve I'm sure Montana would have won all those rings with Marino's team. A prime Jerry Rice can make a QB look a lot better than he actually is. Not stating that Montana is overrated, but just as Owens and Moss(When they have their ehad on straight) can make average QBs look good and good QBs look great and great QBs look greater, Rice had the same effect. So you're attributing Joe's success to Rice? Because Montana had Rice, that just made pull comeback after comeback in the playoffs? It just hept his head cool, huh? Then why was it so hard for Young to win with Rice, or any of the other QBs that were there with Rice? You're disrespecting the greatest of all time. You might not want to do that. If you want to rank QB's solely on Super Bowl appearances that's fine, but there's no way I'm putting Jim Kelly or even Elway ahead of Marino just because they made the super bowl more times. Kelly - NO Elway - YESS!!! By the way, Marino's career playoff QB rating was above 82 at the age of 33. It can be argued he stayed around too long trying to chase that ring with his shot knees, but I think it's a little silly to state he was mediocre in the playoffs. See, the guys that are great. We just talk about how good they were. We shouldn't need to sit and make excuses about how their career could have been better if they had X, Y, or Z. I mean for that matter, if Marino had Barry in his backfield, he probably would have been great. But HE DIDN'T. So lets judge him by what he had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
scottb Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Have you ever heard of a multiple variable formula. Of course there are variables. What I am questioning is the value placed upon the SB variable. I believe it is over valued because of the infuence the other 23 starters, special teams, and coaches in winning one. Other players also influence QB stats, but not to the same degree. Furthermore, when players like Dilfer (sooo average) & Hostetiler (injury fill-in) participate, you realize that the team got them there, not the QB. There are a lot of HOF's that never had good enough teams to take them there (Sonny anyone?), and not all players on teams that go are that good. So ike you said, they need to be judged by what they did with what they had, which means sometimes a SB shoudn't be considered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheSteve Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Originally posted by blakman211 So you're attributing Joe's success to Rice? Because Montana had Rice, that just made pull comeback after comeback in the playoffs? It just hept his head cool, huh? Monthana also had Dwight Clark and John Taylor. Then why was it so hard for Young to win with Rice, or any of the other QBs that were there with Rice? Because Young and Aikman are not worthy of being mentioned with the likes of Elway, Marino, and Montana?Young's problems came from his own developmental issues as a quarterback. He bloomed late and when he did bloom the Cowboys were right in the middle of their dynasty. It's no suprise that the 49ers didn't win until the Cowboys had already won 2(And it's also funny how Deion was a mercenary for that team and the subsequent Cowboy team that won right after that, but that's off topic) You're disrespecting the greatest of all time. You might not want to do that. :laugh: You actlike I just blasphemed God. Were you a 49er fan in the 80s when the Skins never got a chance at them? It's becoming more obvious that as biased I am in my defense of Marino that you are equally so in your attacks to further uphold Montana's career in a glistening light. Kelly - NO Elway - YESS!!! Elway made just as many boneheaded(if not more) plays to throw away games than Marino did. He was a gambler, a risk taker, while Marino was a more calculated gunner who could pick you apart with precision. Sorry, but I would take Marino over Elway in 1983 over and over again. Although it is interesting to note that QB's like that once you get to them are more easily rattled, and yes I am conceding that the Bills were in Marino's head. See, the guys that are great. We just talk about how good they were. We shouldn't need to sit and make excuses about how their career could have been better if they had X, Y, or Z. I'm assuming you agree that Brady is on pace to become one of the best QB's of all time? He has beaten the best in the game today from both conferences, he has 3 super bowl rings, and he has shown Montana like poise, precision, and accuracy with far less talent around him than Montana had with that 49ers dynasty. I'm only assuming here so correct me if I'm wrong. Can you even name a dolphins starting RB in the early to mid 90s without looking it up on the internet? A dolphins starting WR in the same period not named McDuffie? Atleast Peyton Manning has Marvin Harrison and Edgerrin James. I mean for that matter, if Marino had Barry in his backfield, he probably would have been great. But HE DIDN'T. So lets judge him by what he had. I am judging by what he accomplished. He holds almost every single major NFL passing record in the league. Despite not being able to get past the Bills in the playoffs, he was not as bad as some would like to attempt to paint it. I clearly remember playoff games with Marino standing on the sidelines watching the Bills run Thurman Thomas right down the Dolphins overrated defense throats(A defense built for that lovely warm weather, or not, since the Bills even beat the Dolphins in Miami in the playoffs once or twice I believe). Then that fraud Jim Kelly could just sit back and pick them apart. It made no difference when Marino did bring them back, because Miami's defense never held a lead. And that's just in those games that were close. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsFTW Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 Originally posted by HeHateMe Lets not go that far. He did have a few bad passes, but we cant say they would scored on those drives anyway. Dallas was pretty damn good team that year too. You have to be a total homer to not admit that O'Donnell single handedly gave the Cowboys that game. The Cowboys had next to nothing going on other than what O'Donnell gave them in that game. It was pretty pathetic. But my vote for biggest choker is probably going to be Manning. That guy does it year after year and doesn't even have the no running game excuse and he has better receivers than Marino ever had, by far. You can't blame it on the defense when the offense can't even score a TD in the playoffs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
newarkredskinsfan Posted August 7, 2005 Share Posted August 7, 2005 I dont know if you can blame that whole game on Moon but becouse he was th QB that makes it the greatest choke job of all times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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