Is Taylor innocent?

[tvan]

This is why we have courts.

[Bigskinbauer]

Originally posted by TK-IV II I

I think you're refering to the article from the Palm Beach Post.

Nah man i was talking about this article http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/16/AR2005061601302_pf.html

but thanks for the other one i have yet to read it

HOMESTEAD, Fla. -- Sean Taylor's silver BMW 760, its tinted windows down, was parked diagonally on a long patch of grass in the searing South Florida heat outside a modest, one-story home in this tiny municipality. Parked nearby was Taylor's blue 2005 GMC Yukon Denali sport utility vehicle -- with two bullet holes in its side.

The cars were the only signs that the Washington Redskins' safety was inside the home, where he frequently spends the night with his mother and great-grandmother -- and of the events the night of June 1 that led to his legal troubles.

An acquaintance said that Taylor also spent time in a luxury hotel in Miami or with friends. But after concluding his rookie season in January, Taylor has largely stayed at his mother's home, three miles from where his father Pete is chief of police in Florida City. It is a world away from the fast-paced life of Miami 30 miles to the north where Taylor starred for the University of Miami, and from Redskins Park, which Taylor has studiously avoided this offseason, much to the dismay of his team and coach, Joe Gibbs.

Last week, Taylor, 22, had his first telephone conversation with Gibbs in six months. It was arranged by Taylor's agent in the aftermath of Taylor's arrest June 4 on two felony charges of aggravated assault with a firearm and simple battery, the outcome of a dispute over two stolen all-terrain vehicles owned by Taylor. Because of his legal problems, Gibbs excused the 6-foot-2, 231-pound defensive back from the team's three-day minicamp, which will begin Friday at the Redskins' practice facility in Ashburn. Taylor is scheduled to be arraigned next Friday.

Taylor, a Miami native who starred at Gulliver Prep High, didn't emerge from his mother's home late last week despite numerous requests for an interview left on his phone or through his parents and representatives. However, one person aware of his whereabouts said that Taylor was staying there and laying low.

Taylor's mother, Donna Junor, ambled in her carefully kept front yard -- enclosed by a five-foot fence -- when a reporter approached the gate. Junor, 43, politely declined an interview and promptly re-entered her home as a dark gray pit bull thrust its paws against the fence while barking loudly.

Taylor has not spoken with the media since before Oct. 28, when he was arrested on charges of driving while intoxicated on the Beltway in Virginia. He was acquitted of those charges in January.

But in interviews, people who know Taylor -- former teammates, friends, educators, neighbors, associates and police officers -- painted a complex picture of the safety who had never lived outside Miami until the Redskins selected him with the fifth overall pick in the 2004 NFL draft. They portrayed Taylor as a good-natured, family-oriented man who has used his status and local celebrity to make appearances in the community, and begun giving donations to organizations for the underprivileged.

Some who know him, however, said Taylor has also shown a stubborn, recalcitrant side, resisting adult guidance -- including from his parents -- while cavorting with sycophants, some with a dark side. "Punks and wannabe thugs," said one former neighbor who declined to give his name.

Almost everyone interviewed expressed surprise at the severity of the charges against Taylor, who had never been charged with a crime in Florida. Nonetheless, some said they felt that it was only a matter of time before Taylor became embroiled in a predicament stemming from his immaturity and association with longtime buddies he feels loyalty toward.

"Sean is not the type of guy everyone is making him out to be. Sean is not a bad guy," said Arizona Cardinals rookie cornerback Antrel Rolle, a former Miami teammate who has known Taylor since they were 6. "Sean has a big heart and a lot of great qualities. But his friend selection is not good. I don't think that most of his friends have any positive influence."

Rolle continued: "You shouldn't change completely just because you become famous. Even after this incident, he shouldn't be restricted. He just should have second thoughts about his decision-making. He just makes the wrong decisions, and doesn't think of the consequences. I don't think some of his friends are man enough to tell him. They're just in his corner whether his decision is right or wrong."

Rolle said he hasn't had a serious conversation with Taylor since the 2003 Hurricanes season ended.

Neighborhood Incident

West Perrine is a low-income, high-crime neighborhood about 16 blocks just south of Miami and less than 20 miles north of Homestead. About 9,000 people, many of them unemployed single parents who receive government assistance, live in the mix of public and private apartment complexes that dominate the area.

At the Cutler Ridge police station about four miles away, officers describe West Perrine as a dangerous place, a neighborhood with high rates of drug trafficking and substance abuse, where reports of assault and battery are commonplace. One officer warned a reporter not to venture there because of the risk of crime on certain blocks.

On the afternoon of June 1, according to the police report, Taylor drove his Yukon Denali into West Perrine because he believed two men from the area had stolen his two all-terrain vehicles, each worth about $7,000. Another car with several of Taylor's friends trailed behind, police said.

Police said that Taylor got out of his car and pointed a gun at two individuals while demanding they return his ATVs. According to a person familiar with the investigation who requested anonymity because the case is still at a sensitive stage, an individual from the car trailing Taylor's pointed an AK-47. No shots were fired, and Taylor soon left, they said. Ten minutes later, he returned with more friends, the police report said.

After returning, Taylor got out of the car and hit one of the individuals with his fist while one of Taylor's friends chased another person with a bat, the police report said. Then Taylor and his group again left the scene and drove to a home in the area belonging to one of Taylor's friends. According to officials familiar with the case who requested anonymity, shots were fired into the home and at Taylor's Denali several minutes later. No one was hurt. Police said they are continuing to look into this incident -- no arrests have been made -- and consider it a separate investigation.

Three days later, Taylor turned himself in to Miami-Dade police after police had described him as a "person of interest" in the incident. He was charged with two counts of aggravated assault with a firearm, a felony, and one count of simple battery, a misdemeanor. Accompanied by a lawyer, Fred Moldovan, Taylor paid a bond of $16,500 and was released.

A police official said non-residents are rarely brazen enough to enter West Perrine to commit a crime. However, friends said Taylor was familiar with the neighborhood, having grown up at his father's home less than two miles away.

"Sean is known all over South Florida," Rolle said. "I don't think it's the area that got Sean in trouble. Growing up, it's somewhere he's familiar with. He's going to go there before he goes to Washington. Home is home regardless of it's a bad neighborhood or not."

Two witnesses to the June 1 incident, Xavier Gibbs and Terrance Randolph, each 21, said that they knew Taylor casually from when they played football at Palmetto High School. Gibbs and Randolph were advised by their lawyers not to discuss the case, they said. "What's the profit for me?" Gibbs said.

Rocky First Year

Taylor made quite an impact in his first NFL season, using ball-hawking skills and a mean streak to rattle opposing receivers. He added to his aura by inserting sparkling gold false teeth before games. Although his play was at times undisciplined, Taylor emerged as one of the NFL's best rookies and among the league's top safeties. He was voted a first alternate to the Pro Bowl, the second-best showing among Redskins players.

Still, Taylor generated several negative headlines for situations off the field. He hired and fired agents and was fined $25,000 for leaving a mandatory NFL rookie symposium early. He missed the bulk of the Redskins' voluntary offseason workouts last year. Once the season began, the league fined him nearly $20,000 for personal fouls and for violating NFL uniform rules during games.

Friends say Taylor felt picked on by the media during his rookie year, and targeted by the NFL. One associate, who requested anonymity because he wasn't sure how Taylor would interpret his comments, recalled Taylor saying, "They can't break me." Taylor has a tattoo on his right biceps with the words, "Steel Standing."

After the season, Taylor and his agent, Drew Rosenhaus, said they wanted to renegotiate the seven-year, $18 million contract Taylor had signed before the 2004 season, feeling his rookie deal, which with incentives is potentially worth $40 million, did not have enough guaranteed money. People close to Taylor say the contract dispute was not the reason for his decision to skip all of the team's voluntary workouts this offseason -- he was the only member of the team with an unexcused absence. He told friends that Rosenhaus assured him that Redskins owner Daniel Snyder would be willing to offer him an improved contract.

While Taylor -- the second oldest of four children -- struggled last year adjusting to aspects of his new life in Washington such as the cold winter weather, his main qualm about life in the D.C. area was not being able to see his parents and his buddies back in South Florida.

So when the season ended, Taylor returned home.

Looking Back

Although Taylor's parents split up shortly after his birth, he remains close to both. "My parents weren't together after I was born," Taylor said in an interview last year, "but they've always been there for me."

Friends said that Taylor still loves home-cooked meals, and attributes his size to eating his great-grandmother's cornmeal during summer visits. Taylor has a large extended family in the area, friends said, that has increased recently as some cousins moved here from Georgia.

Although Taylor frequents popular clubs at Miami Beach and Ocean Beach, one friend said that Taylor also occasionally enjoys the solitude of fishing for snappers, bluefish and other sal****er fish.

Residents of Taylor's neighborhood from his high school years -- where his father and stepmother still live in a one-story, yellow home -- said that he occasionally drops by, and is quick to offer a helping hand. The working-class area has tree-lined streets with one- and two-story homes near a park with basketball and tennis courts.

Sean Martin, a teenager, moved into the neighborhood from Brooklyn about two months ago to live with his cousin Marc Spencer, 11, and his aunt. Soon after arriving, Martin said he met Taylor when the safety was tending to his car across the street.

"I was like, 'Wow,' " Martin recalled last week, standing outside his home. "He seemed like a nice guy. My aunt had some groceries. And he saw her and came over to give her a hug and then helped us take the stuff inside. I heard about the [June 1] incident, and I was kind of surprised."

In late April, Taylor made an impromptu appearance at Gulliver Prep Middle School -- located in an affluent neighborhood -- and spent both 45-minute lunch periods signing autographs for fifth- through eighth-graders.

"He was great. He just sat there and signed for all the kids," recalled Mark Schusterman, the athletic director. "Then he walked throughout the school and did neat stuff like that."

Taylor graduated from nearby Gulliver Prep High -- an exclusive private school on a picturesque 13-acre campus. After returning to the area in January, Taylor occasionally appeared at the school to watch his brother Joe, a senior forward on the basketball team, play. Their father coaches football part-time in the afternoon.

Adorning the wall of the athletic director's office is an oversized frame of a newspaper article with the headline: "Historic Win by Gulliver." The bank headline reads: "Taylor (3 TDs) leads Raiders to the Title." Taylor is pictured clutching the ball with his right hand, leaping over a pile of burly bodies while a defender tries to tackle him. In the fall of 2000, Taylor led Gulliver Prep to the state championship with a state-record 44 touchdowns.

"When Sean came to us, he was a great athlete and a student willing to put effort in the classroom," said Chuck Tobey, the school's athletic director.

Taylor also played basketball at Gulliver.

"His dad, being a police officer, understood the importance of education, and kept Sean focused," Tobey said. "Sean was very respectful. He was a competitor on the field, but he was a pretty quiet kid, friendly. That's why the incident is rather surprising."

Added Schusterman: "The people in Washington should understand that this guy will work out. We all make mistakes. Have I done stupid things when I was young? Yes. And I probably still do today. Just because somebody gives you money doesn't mean all of a sudden you're perfectly mature.

"When you get in a position like him, it's not so much that he might hang around with the wrong crowd. It's that they stay attached to him. It's not as easy to let that go as you think."

[bubba9497]

Originally posted by HailSkinz1

Passing a non-State sponsored lie detector tests means absolutely nothing. It is not admissable and no one, other than the people in the room at the time, knows what questions were asked. The LD test is totally irrelevant.

again:

anything that might prove him innocent will never be accepted by many here..... simply because you have already made up your he's guilty.

most lie detector tests are recorded or taped..... mine was as well

while it is possible to be wrong, their accuracy rate is quite high.

right now the only evidence against him known is the wittiness reports of the two accusers..... who are of alleged questionable credibility.

in a battle of he said/ they said.... a lie detector test again can't hurt in forming an opinion.

I completely disagree that forming an opinion before the truth or more evidence is harmul.... just read some of these posts.... and some of the actions suggested..... thank goodness Gibbs isn't like that.

[SkinFaninOKC]

I voted UNDECIDED.

He is innocent until proven guilty. Let the attorneys and jury sort it out. If he pulled a gun it should come out during the trial. Not the gun of course. Anyway, I think the worst he gets is probation and a 2 game suspension. That means he doesn't play in Dallass on Sept. 19. If that is the case he better show up at the game cheering louder than the rest of the team.

[sacase]

Cowboys fan here I voted undecided. We dont' know anythign really. Not who the witnesses are, what eveidence the DA has or anything.

As far as a LD test is concernd they can only tell you deception indicated or no deception indicated. Also the EXACT wording of the questions is very important in a LD test. We don't know what the questions were so you can say yeah he passed but if they just asked him his name (I am being facicious) then of course he passed.

Let things play out and hope the kid changes and keeps out of touble or away from troubled friends.

[HailSkinz1]

Originally posted by bubba9497

again:

anything that might prove him innocent will never be accepted by many here..... simply because you have already made up your he's guilty.

Innocent of what? Not being there? Not having a gun? Not pointing a gun? I think most people here who are not Taylor apologists are saying regardless of the outcome, Taylor's actions were not appropriate and not worthy of someone to play on our team.

most lie detector tests are recorded or taped..... mine was as well

while it is possible to be wrong, their accuracy rate is quite high.

Totally irrelevant. There are many, many documented cases of guilty people passing Lie Detector tests.

right now the only evidence against him known is the wittiness reports of the two accusers..... who are of alleged questionable credibility.

Who's alleging they are questionable? You are! You have formed an opinion about these people but yet you can't understand people forming an opinion about Taylor. We know more about Taylor than we do the alleged victims. You have absolutely no evidence connecting these people to the alleged theft of Taylor's ATVs.

in a battle of he said/ they said.... a lie detector test again can't hurt in forming an opinion.

I completely disagree that forming an opinion before the truth or more evidence is harmul.... just read some of these posts.... and some of the actions suggested..... thank goodness Gibbs isn't like that.

Oh I'm sure Gibbs has formed an opinion on Sean Taylor based on the totality of his behavior. You'd have to be a complete moron to not have an opinion at this point.

He's guilty of many things, regardless of whether or not he had a gun. One thing no one seems to want to talk about is the FACT that he did punch someone. That has not been disputed from what I have read.

Hail,

H

[TheSteve]

Originally posted by HailSkinz1

One thing no one seems to want to talk about is the FACT that he did punch someone. That has not been disputed from what I have read.

Hail,

H

Since when is punching someone equateable with pointing a gun?

[bubba9497]

Originally posted by HailSkinz1

Innocent of what? Not being there? Not having a gun? Not pointing a gun? I think most people here who are not Taylor apologists are saying regardless of the outcome, Taylor's actions were not appropriate and not worthy of someone to play on our team.

First off defending someones constitutional rights of innocence before being proven guilty is NOT being an apologist... trying make your point through insults and names... really doesn't support your point. At this time the only known actions Taylor has exhibited is that he is a mama's boy who wanted to stay in Miami as long as he could, and wanted his personal property returned.. hardly worthy of being kicked off the team..... seriously that is really weak.

Please show me ONE apology made for Taylor...ONE! (plus he has to be guilty of something before you can apologize for him)

Originally posted by HailSkinz1

Totally irrelevant. There are many, many documented cases of guilty people passing Lie Detector tests.

how because you say so? Most research studies have lie detector test at 80% (by detractors) to 97% by advocates... a resent article I read said new computerized test are at above 99.9%. If they were so irrelevant why does the US government use them to screen applicants, and investigate possible spies?

While the state of Florida doesn't allow it as evidence... the question was of personal opinion... and in my book and experiences... passing a lie detector test... heck even taking one.... gives points on the Taylor's Innocent side.

Originally posted by HailSkinz1

Who's alleging they are questionable? You are! You have formed an opinion about these people but yet you can't understand people forming an opinion about Taylor. We know more about Taylor than we do the alleged victims. You have absolutely no evidence connecting these people to the alleged theft of Taylor's ATVs.

I haven't formed anything... again Do I have to explain what the word alleged means to you... I just point out that there has been as much negative reports of these two accusers as there has been of Taylor.... yet you constantly defend the accusers as being truthfully and reliable, when ever I mention that they "may" not according to the same source as you are basing your arguments Taylor is guilty. You can't have it both ways... I am not saying he is guilty or innocent, or the accusers are guilty or innocent, but if that is just as much a possibility of his innocence as there is guilt... and the same of the accuser.. it is not a given they are being truthful.

Originally posted by HailSkinz1

Oh I'm sure Gibbs has formed an opinion on Sean Taylor based on the totality of his behavior. You'd have to be a complete moron to not have an opinion at this point.

He's guilty of many things, regardless of whether or not he had a gun. One thing no one seems to want to talk about is the FACT that he did punch someone. That has not been disputed from what I have read.

Hail,

H

Wow he may have punched someone, was it in defense? Do know for a fact he punched anyone? He admitted he confronted the two.

and even if he punched someone, threw the first blow... regardless of the reason..... that is a hell of a lot different in the eyes of the law, as well as the NFL. NFL players get into scraps all the time.... and while not a smart act... it is usually an emotional act and not worthy of all the drama, and cries of kicking off the team.

And yes I believe after talking with Taylor... Gibbs and Williams have formed an opinion... and the fact that they both are supporting him in the public, saying He won't be suspended by the team, and that GW said he knows more than anyone else, and HE STILL IS A SEAN TAYLOR fan.... gives us some clues what opinion they have formed about him.

[[[ghost]]]

i have the feeling that there's more to it...but for now it looks guilty

[HailSkinz1]

Originally posted by bubba9497

First off defending someones constitutional rights of innocence before being proven guilty is NOT being an apologist... trying make your point through insults and names... really doesn't support your point. At this time the only known actions Taylor has exhibited is that he is a mama's boy who wanted to stay in Miami as long as he could, and wanted his personal property returned.. hardly worthy of being kicked off the team..... seriously that is really weak.

Please show me ONE apology made for Taylor...ONE! (plus he has to be guilty of something before you can apologize for him)

how because you say so? Most research studies have lie detector test at 80% (by detractors) to 97% by advocates... a resent article I read said new computerized test are at above 99.9%. If they were so irrelevant why does the US government use them to screen applicants, and investigate possible spies?

While the state of Florida doesn't allow it as evidence... the question was of personal opinion... and in my book and experiences... passing a lie detector test... heck even taking one.... gives points on the Taylor's Innocent side.

I haven't formed anything... again Do I have to explain what the word alleged means to you... I just point out that there has been as much negative reports of these two accusers as there has been of Taylor.... yet you constantly defend the accusers as being truthfully and reliable, when ever I mention that they "may" not according to the same source as you are basing your arguments Taylor is guilty. You can't have it both ways... I am not saying he is guilty or innocent, or the accusers are guilty or innocent, but if that is just as much a possibility of his innocence as there is guilt... and the same of the accuser.. it is not a given they are being truthful.

Wow he may have punched someone, was it in defense? Do know for a fact he punched anyone? He admitted he confronted the two.

and even if he punched someone, threw the first blow... regardless of the reason..... that is a hell of a lot different in the eyes of the law, as well as the NFL. NFL players get into scraps all the time.... and while not a smart act... it is usually an emotional act and not worthy of all the drama, and cries of kicking off the team.

And yes I believe after talking with Taylor... Gibbs and Williams have formed an opinion... and the fact that they both are supporting him in the public, saying He won't be suspended by the team, and that GW said he knows more than anyone else, and HE STILL IS A SEAN TAYLOR fan.... gives us some clues what opinion they have formed about him.

You know, I was going to respond to this point by point, but I won't. You keep making up things and I just can't keep arguing with someone who puts words in people's mouths and spins things more than a blender. So, think the way you want, I could care less at this point. FACT is, I wish he had nothing to do with this, but he clearly did. FACT is the people who stole his ATVs and shot at his Denali and friends house should be prosecuted.

My stance is, I don't want guys who demonstrate poor character on the team. You obviously value how they play over character. That's fine, we can disagree.

When the Redskins win our first game this year (maybe even because of a Taylor TD), I'll toast the W with a beer with you.

Hail,

H

[tr1]

Originally posted by bubba9497

it can't? since when?

anything that might prove him innoscent will neer be accepted by many here..... simply because you have already made up your he's guilty.

sad

What's truly sad is your consistent desire to give ST the benefit of the doubt at the expense of our beloved Redskins.

Where, in what instance, has he deserved that? Not calling the coach...oh, not a big deal...really, Coach Gibbs alluded to career implications.

His skipping NFL mandatory training for rookies...oh, not a big deal. Well, it cost him thousands of dollars in a fine and embarassing the FO.

Drinking during the season at a party in the middle of the week...oh, Riggins did it all the time. Did Riggins ever get stopped for a DUI?

And now, we KNOW he went TWICE to the alleged victims' house to aggressively intimidate someone who he alleges stole his ATVs (though he as yet has not filed a police report...but then again, Sean probably thinks the police are a waste of time.)

Not once, but twice, and the second time getting into a fist fight.

He's guilty in my eyes of not giving a sh*t about the Redskins...and for that, I don't give a sh*t about him.

No, the kid has made everyone focus on his antics at the expense of the organization.

Get beyond the one incident...realize that he'll never be a good thing for the club (unless there's some attempt at genuine contrition...but I'm not holding my breath.)

Come to the light, Bubba...it's okay.

Oh, and polygraphs are not admissible as evidence in a court of laws.

[REDKORN]

It is not a question if he is innocent. The real question is wheather the prosecution can prove the charges against him. I would think that the " victim" in this case is probably not a real good witness. If you have a good defense attorney, he can rip the " victim" on the stand, and make him not real credible. Witness, victim character is a big deal in these type of cases.

:dallasuck :eaglesuck

[Highway66]

as a person of the law I think taylor probably did pull a gun, but looking at the prosecutions cast of witnesses they are not very credible making this a tough case to prove beyond doubt. I think the prosecution will offer a plea of a lesser crime maybe simple assault and taylor will get a weekend or two coupled with some community service and a lengthy probation..

[bubba9497]

Originally posted by HailSkinz1

You know, I was going to respond to this point by point, but I won't. You keep making up things and I just can't keep arguing with someone who puts words in people's mouths and spins things more than a blender. So, think the way you want, I could care less at this point. FACT is, I wish he had nothing to do with this, but he clearly did. FACT is the people who stole his ATVs and shot at his Denali and friends house should be prosecuted.

Hogwash... what a load of crap that is...:laugh:

I haven't "spinned" anything and you know it.... The simple truth my main arguments with you have been you are taking certain assumption and presenting them as facts IE' his "poor character" There has been evidence of immaturity and somewhat selfishness in Taylors actions as a Redskin... but nothing to suggest he is as bad as some one with "poor character".

You make these statements yet never back them up with any real proof... just take them for granted they are true, though there is nothing , or you exaggerate the severity of what happened.

Originally posted by HailSkinz1

My stance is, I don't want guys who demonstrate poor character on the team. You obviously value how they play over character. That's fine, we can disagree.

When the Redskins win our first game this year (maybe even because of a Taylor TD), I'll toast the W with a beer with you.

Hail,

H

:laugh: define "poor character" Taylor signed on time, didn't miss any mandatory preseason Redskin activity, He didn't miss any practices except 1 when he was jailed on a charge later dropped. He didn't call Gibbs until after practice began and was suspended a game... poor judgment, :yes:, but not poor character. He was praised all year for his intensity in practice, he gave it 100% in every game... is praised by coaches and players for his attitude, and locker room presence. He skips voluntary workouts... poor choice ... yeah maybe... but poor character???? eh no. He has his ATV's stolen... he is later is involved in an altercation over same ATVs.... poor choice yes... bad character.... no way of knowing yet.... if it is proved he was threaten people with a gun then yes you have a case for "poor character" but that hasn't been proven in any way shape or form... he says he didn't have a gun, his accusers says he did.... His lawyer is saying not only didn't he have the gun, but also alluding that there are more wittinesses that might point to the accusers as the thieves, and the ones who shot at the house he was in and his at car (read todays WP) that the police hasn't talked with yet. Is his lawyer lying? is he telling the truth...If Taylor didn't do anything but confront the guys... and they were the thieves... he didn't do anything different than most people would... maybe poor judgement... but hardly poor character.

I can't make it any clearer sorry.

[tizzod]

My uneducated guess is that no one who voted on this poll was there when the alleged incident happened. I personally don't have a clue what happened, therefore I don't know if he is innocent or not, and I don't waste any time worrying about it. It's his problem, not mine. Or yours.

[bubba9497]

Originally posted by tr1

What's truly sad is your consistent desire to give ST the benefit of the doubt at the expense of our beloved Redskins.

"at the expense of our beloved Redskins if he is innocent what exactly has he done to the redskins... come on now that is just plain silly.... whether you want to admit it or not he hasn't been proven guilty of anything yet.

Originally posted by tr1

Where, in what instance, has he deserved that? Not calling the coach...oh, not a big deal...really, Coach Gibbs alluded to career implications.

His skipping NFL mandatory training for rookies...oh, not a big deal. Well, it cost him thousands of dollars in a fine and embarrassing the FO.

Drinking during the season at a party in the middle of the week...oh, Riggins did it all the time. Did Riggins ever get stopped for a DUI?

Okay lets go over this again.... So can separate the facts from fantasy.

While it showed immaturity not to attend workouts or return Gibbs calls..... he didn't do anything technically wrong by his contract... like it or not, He doesn't have to report to the team or anyone until the first mandatory function. Period. And in no way shape or form does that have anything to do with judging his innocence. One act doesn't doesn't proof the second.

He didn't SKIP the rookie training but let early to take care of personal business.... dumb move :yes: but the only one hurt was his wallet. and he learned something. The FO embarrassed :doh: Dear larwd I wish people would quit exaggerating the importance of an event. Seriously that is crazy to even suggest.

He was at a party along with several other players who were drinking. He was pulled over by police but later ALL charges were dropped by the judge, saying the policeman used poor judgment. But Being pulled over makes him bad... over a guy who admittedly drank and drive but didn't get caught, or wasn't taken in by the police..... yeah I can see your logic there

Originally posted by tr1

And now, we KNOW he went TWICE to the alleged victims' house to aggressively intimidate someone who he alleges stole his ATVs (though he as yet has not filed a police report...but then again, Sean probably thinks the police are a waste of time.)

Not once, but twice, and the second time getting into a fist fight.

We do.... you better quit smoking what ever your smoking because that is NOT a fact. The ONLY thing that is known is that his ATV's were stolen, and he confronted two or three guys about them. The rest is statements from his accusers, which statements from his lawyers dispute.... and has publicly stated that the accusers are the ones who stole the ATV's are lying and shot up his car and the house he was in.... if any of that is true.... can't makes his accusers look real credible. There nothing to say at this point which side has more credibility or is telling the truth.... but hey lets not let things like facts keep from judging someone morally. :thumbsup:

Originally posted by tr1

He's guilty in my eyes of not giving a sh*t about the Redskins...and for that, I don't give a sh*t about him.

No, the kid has made everyone focus on his antics at the expense of the organization.

Get beyond the one incident...realize that he'll never be a good thing for the club (unless there's some attempt at genuine contrition...but I'm not holding my breath.)

Come to the light, Bubba...it's okay.

Oh, and polygraphs are not admissible as evidence in a court of laws.

:doh: No what he is guilty of is not meeting the expectations you have set for a player of the redskins to behave. Some of his actions have caused headaches.... but hardly as dramatic as you are trying to imply.

I also like how you ignore all his good points, and the way he handled himself during the season in practice and games... the fact that he was one of the first to sign and get into camp on time last season... how he is praised about giving it all in practice. How he is talked about as being a good guy, and teammate by his peers on the team. How he still lives at home with his mom and grandmother, and the only extravagance has been on his cars. The fact he has given a lot of time & money to local charities in his home town..... all of this is proven facts I might add... but that means squat in judging him? :insane:

I am not the one who needs to get a clue...seriously.

and by the way I was wrong about Florida, but many states allow lie detectors as evidence, even the US government uses them to screen job applicants, and are used in evidence against alleged spies and terrorists.

But I understand if you have already made your mind up he's guilty..... then you want to ignore any evidence, or logical reasoning that dispels your theroy.....

:laugh:

[Bigskinbauer]

my opinion on the lie detector test is quite simple. I don't think that he took many tries at it and probally had appropriate questions because both sides acknowledged that he had passed. He took the test is the most important thing. No one had a gun pointed at him(NO PUN INTENDED), he decided to take it to prove one simple thing his innocence. HE TRULY BELIEVES that he did not take out the gun, that is all i can say, it is his opinion, it is possible that he is dellusional and doesn't remember. By taking the test he proved that he believes his story, plain and simple

[Bigskinbauer]

I hate when people jump to conclusions and it is truly injust and just for a second think if he truly did nothing wrong, as pull out a gun. He may have punched the guy but seriously very few people in here can say they never ever ever got physical during an argument. It is rediculous that some of us just assume and when u assume U make an ASS out of U and ME. The me being Taylor, you hurt his image and make him an ass and do the same to yourself as you jump to comclusion.

Agreed that it is hard not to make a conclusion on this topic but on his character, expecially when we don't know anything.

[sacase]

Originally posted by bubba9497

how because you say so? Most research studies have lie detector test at 80% (by detractors) to 97% by advocates... a resent article I read said new computerized test are at above 99.9%. If they were so irrelevant why does the US government use them to screen applicants, and investigate possible spies?

I haven't formed anything... again Do I have to explain what the word alleged means to you... I just point out that there has been as much negative reports of these two accusers as there has been of Taylor.... yet you constantly defend the accusers as being truthfully and reliable, when ever I mention that they "may" not according to the same source as you are basing your arguments Taylor is guilty. You can't have it both ways... I am not saying he is guilty or innocent, or the accusers are guilty or innocent, but if that is just as much a possibility of his innocence as there is guilt... and the same of the accuser.. it is not a given they are being truthful.

ok Bubba I am going to have to correct you and inform you on two of these points. Before I do let me again state there is not enough evidence availible to us for us to make a deision.

Now for the LD Test. I work for the US goverment and have worked closely with polygraphers. Yes the US government uses them to help screen people for certain special programs. Passing one allows you access to that information failing one does not, however you CANNOT loose your clearence for failing one. When it comes to matters of National security The USG would rather error on the side of caution. A good polygragher will be able to word questions in such a way that the person taking them can pass the test. It is the nature of the business. They are fairly accurate, but no court in the US allows them admitted as evidence. Why? Well perhaps becasue two of the biggest spies in the history of the US REPEATEDLY passed LD tests for many years before they were caught. Hell even when somone fails a poly we have to conduct a investigation to figure out why, even then it might turn up that they were nervous or even unreadable.

Now for the 3 victims in the case. Ok first of all no one has even filed charges to report missing ATV's, nor have they even been accused by anyone other than Taylor that they stole the ATV. so tell me why are they less than credible? Because they live in a not so good part of town? Or perhaps because Taylor said so? Now Taylor came into the hood and tried to be bad, someone pointed a gun, Taylor knuckled someone down. The he went to go chill. Now common sense says that more likely than not these guys retaliated, but again no weapon, no witnesses, no charges.

Like I said previously. Let all the facts come out, see who the witnesses are, see what the evidence is then form your opinion. I hope for Taylors sake that no matter what the outcome he gets his head on strait and walks the strait and narrow. It would a shame to see a talented person waste their life doing something stupid. This is about the person, not about a rivalry.

[Bigskinbauer]

Originally posted by sacase

ok Bubba I am going to have to correct you and inform you on two of these points. Before I do let me again state there is not enough evidence availible to us for us to make a deision.

Now for the LD Test. I work for the US goverment and have worked closely with polygraphers. Yes the US government uses them to help screen people for certain special programs. Passing one allows you access to that information failing one does not, however you CANNOT loose your clearence for failing one. When it comes to matters of National security The USG would rather error on the side of caution. A good polygragher will be able to word questions in such a way that the person taking them can pass the test. It is the nature of the business. They are fairly accurate, but no court in the US allows them admitted as evidence. Why? Well perhaps becasue two of the biggest spies in the history of the US REPEATEDLY passed LD tests for many years before they were caught. Hell even when somone fails a poly we have to conduct a investigation to figure out why, even then it might turn up that they were nervous or even unreadable.

i just have one question about the lie detectors, I am guessing that there are places to get administered and they have a reputation of being accurate and they probally don't take bribes, my question is are most of these places legitimate. If so then Taylor took a risk taking the test, and that is thing that surprises me.

He took the test under his own will, that says something-- he believes he is innocent

[Monkart]

I chose undecided, simply because I don't know! Hell I wasn't there. Anytime I referred to this sitution I used terms like IF convicted. I hope he does beat it and learns something from it.

On the field this guy is nothing but business, and that can only help our BELOVED REDSKINS And I for one will look forward to him taking his frustrations out on the likes of Keyshawn, Shocky,Owens,Julius Jones,B Westbrook, Tiki, ect..ect..

That being said, in MY OPINION! I think Sean up to this point has shown immaturity and some "poor character issues".

Leaving the Rookie thing last year, changing agents a few times,

calling police officer Uncle Tom, those are immature!

Now if we are talking legality, the contract he signed seperates certain activities as Voluntary and Mandatory. He had been excussed by JG for the mandatory mini camp last week to deal with his legal troubles. Now where I think the "poor character' comes in is when Sean Taylor, a college educated man was being interviewed "PRE DRAFT" by Joe Gibbs and other coaches I'm convinced they asked him (because they put a lot of value in them) if he would attend the offseason voluntary activities and I'm convinced he told them he would. Now we know legally per contract he doesn't have to, But as a MAN who gives his word on something then goes back on it shows POOR character. They drafted him # 5 on his word, because that's all they have to go on at that point. Not calling Joe Gibbs to even discuss it is also in MY eyes POOR character more than immaturity. If he beats these charges (And I hope he does) he needs to work on these character issues and step up to his word like a MAN !! He can change, he just has to want to.:fingersx: :peaceout:

[HeHateMe]

Not 100% sure how it all went down (just like no one is), but I'm sure the truth is somewhere in the middle of everything we have heard up to this point.

[SamSneed36]

Originally posted by Bigskinbauer

Just wondering the opinion on whether taylor is innocent. We have heard that they have witnesses and the witnesses played football in highschool with Taylor and one has been quoted on saying "whats the profit for me". I also suspect the people that were the victims have also said that he pulled a gun but they are not very crediable expecially if they are the ones who did the shooting at the house taylor was staying at.

Based on what we know, there is no way to know innocence or guilt. Taylor certainly is guilty of putting himself in bad situations and obviouslt hanging out with the wrong people, but there doesnt seem to be any evidence at the moment. Hopefully there will not be enough evidence to convict, but its a bad sign that the DA decided to prosecute, he/she must think there is something to work with here.

[LarryBrownsFan]

By definition, he's innocent. Assuming you mean in a legal sense. That much is for sure. It's impossible for him to be otherwise since he hasn't even had a trial yet!

Did he pull a gun? He says he didn't. Someone else says he did. I don't personally know either's character well enough to judge. Absent that sort of advantage, I'd have to rely on physical evidence. I haven't seen any. So it's undecided. And maybe it always will be, except to himself, the accusers, and those who really know him the best.

[atloldskin]

Sean Taylor is certainly guilty of acting stupid and being at the wrong place at the wrong time with the wrong people. He should have been with his teammates in camp!

The Courts will decide on the other matters of guilt or innocence.