Thinking Skins

5 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I feel like we're close to an offensive explosion. Opportunities are there and we have a QB that can hit them and an OC that is aggressive enough. Could be this week against a Giants defense that'll be missing a lot of guys and likes to blitz a lot(leaving opportunities for big plays).

Thing is, we're having the offensive explosions we've wanted all year. 

We have 8 TD passes of 20+ yards this year. 1 of 50+ yards

8 different recievers have caught TD passes

We had 9 TD of 20+ yards all last year and 1 of 50 + yards (3 of 49 + yards)

4 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

There are definitely open guys he's missing, either because he doesn't see them or he misfires completely. But such is the growth of a young QB. He's also making some incredible throws.

 

Its all about more reps so he gets more comfort and experience trusting his reads. He's nowhere close to a finished product, but the fact that he's already showing this much progression is reason for optimism.

Well I wanted to point it out because EB haters like to act like the offense is all Sam and no EB. And I feel like this is a student and teacher relationship where EB is teaching an offense and fundamentals and has to live through mistakes that Sam and the players make. So this includes the first 30 or so sacks, but they are making mistakes but its not always the same mistake (sometimes its Sam holding the ball too long, sometimes its him leaving the pocket and running into the rusher, sometimes its just scrambling and not being able to avoid a sack, sometimes its just holding the ball too long and not avoiding a sack, sometimes its not looking for the checkdowns, Sometimes its Leno getting beat, sometimes its Wiley, sometimes its Paul or Larson or Charles or Cosmi. 

Should the first thing be to bench Sam because he wasn't seeing the checkdowns as Brian Mitchell and Lynell Willingham were talking about so many weeks back? Should Charles or and OL have been benched for the QB holding the ball too long? EB is being critized for this development but he is a teacher and he is making sure to teach them thats what i like right now and he's positive. Even his former players, heck Brad Johnson was just on and talked about his leadership and how great it was. 

I'm more excited about this team than I was about the 2012 team. 

One thing about the game (and I'm at work listening to the QB school analysis of Howell's performance) is that he's not as positive on Howell as I thought he'd be. Appareantly there are a lot of opportunities that he missed, and its not like its not showing up in film and to be reviewed and stuff that Howell can complete. So its a question of why not. Its not like he didn't make some great plays (the plays to BRob and Gibson) but he starts off with a missed deep ball to I think Dotson and another missed fade to Terry that he missed. He really criticizes the pump fake on that fade route that because there is nobody to fake out. 

So I'm going to get off this EB for the next coach talk because that's what I want and if I'm the only one preaching it I'm not going to push a rock up a mountain alone. 

But I was thinking about the while BRob catching passes angle and it's been in my head for 2 weeks now. But after Seattle where he exploded with it, I'm wondering is we could use him as more of a weapon. He's nowhere near on CMC level but he has a different set of tools. You see how they didn't want to get near him to tackle him when he was at full power?

If we could get him the ball 15 times a game like running and receiving it could be great. I'm just thinking and brainstorming right now but in Scott Abraham today with players he was saying how he tells Howell that he's always open and I think that's led to more checkdowns, so I'm wondering if that's going to be a big part of our second half offense. Gibson too but because BRob plays now snaps he's more of a weapon. 

4 minutes ago, Conn said:

Sure, like I said, fair to have questions about it until he’s in the interview cycle and we hear more. I just don’t get why you assume he doesn’t have those qualities. Has EB specifically shown leadership qualities? I don’t think so. Not to any perceivable degree that would make me mark it as a positive for him and a negative for an unknown like Johnson. 
 

If I had the time I could probably dig up articles from last hiring cycle talking about the qualities Johnson does or doesn’t have, but for the purposes of this exchange I’m more interested in why you assume he doesn’t have them than whether he actually does or not. 

Everybody was assuming that EB couldn't land a job because he didn't interview well. Well, I didn't assume that. I think I know why, but I'm gonna keep that out of this forum. But then we heard the press conferences and everybody was like ok this dude is really good with words and is clearly a leader of men. Well maybe there are some who are unimpressed and think it's just eloquent coach speak. But the point remains that he had doubters until he proves them wrong. 

I feel that same way about Ben. Ben has not been in that leadership position and having seen Norv and Jay and Zorn who are all on different degrees on their qualities in the leadership scale, but none are up there with the Tomlins. 

1 hour ago, Conn said:

You think Dan Campbell employs a coordinator who can’t lead men? 
 

Also, Ben Johnson can obviously put together game plans. The real question is what does his assistant network look like, who would he bring with him and who could he get as DC for the other side of the ball. 
 

Not sure what you mean with these criticisms. Fair to have questions but I don’t see a reason to think that the seemingly #1 candidate on the market doesn’t have these qualities. Especially gameplanning. 

Actually I do. Why would he need that? He can do it. What he probably can't do is the offensive strategy. Hence Ben. Same with a guy like Antonio Pierce. Every coach isn't great at everything. 

I'm not excited about Ben Johnson. I like that he knows offense and Sam but for all we know he could be another Norv. I want someone who can lead men. And put together game plans. 

Now the Philly coach was a laughter when I first saw him so I'm not going to say it's all or nothing but I don't want to think he's in over his head. I definitely felt that about the giants coaches before the current one. 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

There are always stuff of course practiced in camp.    Bieiniemy's drills were more vanilla than the ones I saw from Jay but i only watched one practice this year so maybe it was just that one.

 

Keim-Bram ironically talked about how maybe the run game sucks because of how little they practiced it in camp.

 

Who knows?  but i'll give that there is so much time to emphazise this versus that.  And considering Howell can make plays off schedule its good that they practiced it.

 

Overall from a play design standpoint, play balance, etc, I am not blown away by Bieniemy.  I suspect Howell would have done well other coordinators, too.   i think i am a hard no as for wanting him as HC.  But lol, I am not as strongly opposed as @Koolblue13 and some others if it happened.

 

If it happened.  I'd be dissappointed and dislike it.  But I wouldn't be kicking and screaming.

That's cool because others like JPFinley were (in his own journalistic way) saying that EB and Sam were kinda joined at the hip, more commenting on a Neil Greenberg opinion on the matter that he and Brian seemed to agree with. 

The thing about the running game is that yeah he focused on the passing game and Sam. And Sam's development. Many thought that would be to the detriment of the team but it may be to the benefit of Sam proves to be worth it. The Carrol quote shows that they were not expecting us to run and that's the only reason we could run on them. When we tried earlier it didn't work. If EB stays, maybe he'll have time to install more running packages or we'll draft a better back more to his liking, but I'm more positive on BRob in this system now. 

I'm pro EB right now being our next coach. I want a search done but I want him as the frontrunner. 

6 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Not much on that front unless they talked about Sam again later in the podcast?    He put his success to his college reps and instincts on the field.    Only praise if you are looking for some for EB that he notices is that its clear they practice what to do when a play breaks down.

I mean that may be why HE says its true but what EB stressed all through camp was the scramble drill and what we saw him not doing well was the scrambling and thats what he is improving on. That's what he talked about today. That's where I'm seeing the improvements. The suddle movements in the pocket vs the take off and run, the keeping his keys down the field, finding his checkdowns. This is where people like Brian Mitchell and Craig Hoffman and other analysts were saying that instead of taking those sacks in weeks 1-8 he needs to find the checkdowns (and I was saying he didn't have time, but now I see the difference). 

"these guys are masters of scramble drill".

The quote i pointed out in the press conference today is after my post today but it comes into play because it shows that they practice this stuff and he's getting better at it and its showing. 

6 hours ago, Conn said:

This OL configuration is absolutely noticeably better. But even more importantly, the playcalling is more tailored to hiding our weaknesses (over the last month especually) by utilizing more screens and quick passing concepts with hot outlets for Howell. That wasn’t happening hardly ever over the first month+ of the season. Howell has also improved, yes. So has the OL we’re starting now and most noticeably to me, the playcalling. 

I go back and forth on that. Leonard Williams who is a prime example of someone who went up against the line before and after the changes was able to get through both times. I do think Larsen is better at calling out blitzes but I think that after 11 games Howell is better at the scramble drill. He said so today in his press conference. Not in those words, but he was saying that he has always been confident in his arm but now he's a more confident player. 

Also. 

On if he's gotten more comfortable with drive progressions:
"I think I've definitely grown in that area. I think it's something that EB and [Quarterbacks Coach] Tavita [Pritchard] have talked about a lot is just extending plays, keeping my eyes downfield and being able to sometimes stay in the pocket, getting to the backside of my progression or if I do have to get out of the pocket, keep my eyes downfield and try to make a play. I think our guys do a really good job on the scramble drill and those type of broken-down plays. The O-Line's doing a really good job right now as well. It's allowing me to get back to the fourth and fifth reads of my progression. So, I think I've definitely grown in that area and it's just something that's worked for us so we're going to try to keep doing it."

There he is throwing praise to the OL and you see EB and the coaches get some credit but his growth as a player comes in here where he would try to take off and run or just stand there and look like a sitting duck waiting to get sacked. Now he's sliding around, away from pressure. The line is helping and he said in an earlier answer that people like BRob are helping too but these things are working well now, but its not like Paul and Larson are suddenly world beaters. 

13 hours ago, oraphus said:

Does EB get some credit for Sams development.... sure... some. But his job is not "QB Developer" 

" you play, to win, the game!"  As an OC i see a lot of short comings.

1. I have no doubt he was the driving factor in Wash signing Willie - when pretty much everyone knew he sucked except for one game. 

2. His boneheadedly slow adjustment to play-calling and O line switch. WTF does it take 9 weeks to see that Oline as whole is terrible, and especially center and guard suck when you have replacements on the roster? 

3. The amount of sacks Sam took is at least half on EB... again because he wouldn't adjust his playcalling 

 

He is actually lucky that Sam has a short memory and seems unshakable.. of he had a bit more of Wentz in him, Briset would already be starting. 

Just because he decided to call 80% passes is not enough to give him full credit, especially when taking all the other OC failures in to account

This is grading a teacher for the kids failing the test. He was giving them the concepts and it's not like the second line is better, Howell is better. 

Those scramble drills they did worked. But sometimes maybe Howell would take his eyes off downfield or a receiver would run a wrong route or somebody would miss a block. Lots of things. Now they're paying off and that Sanchez video talks about it and how coordinators are you learning to not blitz him like that twice. 

6 hours ago, zCommander said:

Listen to the first 3 mins of what Mark Sanchez had to say about Howell.  

 

 

This is great. Because while he praised Sam, he inadvertently praises EB because all that attention to detail this off-season is paying off right now. Beautiful. 

12 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

 

Or was it the teachings Scott Turner instilled in him?

 

Realistically its part "Sam's just got it", college coach having no OL his senior and letting him learn feet to the fire to throw on the run, Ron the steady hand in s **** org, Scott, EB, and all the QB coaches along the way. Taylor and Carson!

 

I think the big thing is TONS of  reps with a ****ty OL. It doesn't take 3 years to learn if they can complete passes in the worst of situations. I think that may be what defines a QB.

 

Once again this past week we saw him loft one - this time to Gibson for the TD.

 

 

I think that's a large part of it - the reps. Kobe talks about it a lot how many practice shots he takes. MJ talks about it too. I think that means a lot. So if they could speed up this mental process and get him ahead of the game and just make him able to mentally see things faster then we could maybe be competing with the SFs and the Phillys and the KCs and the heavyweights of the league instead of hoping that a team like Atlanta or New England makes a critical mistake. 

5 minutes ago, Chris 44 said:

I think that Sam is getting a lot of good national attention right now, both form the media and players/coaches, as long as he continues to play the way he has it would be a huge gamble for Harris to not continue on with Howell as QB. Unless we end up with a top 3 pick in the draft and go QB (even then I'm not sure that would be the right move already knowing what we have in Howell) I just dont see how Harris and new GM dont build around him.

That's the risk. And that's why I wanted to outline it. Because people wanted to act like GMs are being backed into a corner by Harris but Sam's play is doing this. They'd be crazy and talked about by the national media all over for messing this up 

So for all practical purposes we have our QB for the next two years (2023 and 2024). And the GM will be deciding what he needs. 

6 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Yep.  Especially following Darth Vadar (Dan) here.    Also who are you going to attract in August a month before the season?  It would have to be some retread out of the league because no respected upcoming GM or HC is bailing on their current job a month before the season.

 

Harris IMO is doing it the right way.

 

If we want a GM, an in demand GM to take over this team and hire the HC -- you got to do this the patient and right way.

 

I think it was Keim who said this (but i am not 100% sure, maybe it was someone else), other potential HCs-GMs will pay attention to early Harris' actions and you want to come off like a dude who isn't high strung-rash.  You want to come off like someone who is good to work with.

 

So while I understand the anger at Ron and his coaching staff, its better to let this play out for most of the season.  Canning him with 2-3 weeks to go is fine but who would you replace him with?

 

A.  Best shot at a clean break from Ron and this regime where there is less of a chance of a spin off 

B.  Makes Harris look more appetizing to figure GMs and HCs.

C.  Most importantly IMO, it gives you the best shot to do this like a real winning team does it.  Hiring a top GM and let them control the process

 

I mean that sounds good but whatever guy Harris brings in here will have to make some decisions and rather quickly. 

A. What to do with current staff and players, including EB

B. An extensive evaluation of the roster. Will this be dependent on the coach or will he be above (I'm assuming he's above, but if we want our players to be good in particular systems then ...)

C. So does this mean that

 C i) Harris likes Sam and hires a GM to build around him with that in mind

 C ii) with that, they are looking at coaches that they think have a system that works for Sam and for this NFL. 

 C III) we know that EB and Ben Johnson are hot names but been may want to go somewhere else like LA. 

D or could of mean that

 D I) Harris doesn't like Sam and gives the GM authority to trade up in the draft

 D ii) with that they hire a new coach and initiate a full rebuild. Lots of fun. 

3 hours ago, MartinC said:

 

We are not making the playoffs. This defense does not give us any shot at that.

 

Some of the spacing and route combos are weird though. I do think some of that could use some tweaking, especially against man.

Maybe but we're not in the rooms to know if they're running the right routes. Like the deep ball to Dotson last week had Terry right next to him and everyone was saying Terry ran the wrong route. 

We have to remember that this is year 1 in EBs system which I guess is complicated because it is precision based. For all we know it could have a lot of running to it too but he couldn't install it this year because he chose to focus on Sam. I doubt that based on Andy, but we have seen good backs in Andy's system though. 

What I saw Sunday is what I want the most from Sam and EB. It's not pressing, just dinking and dunking, because this offense is so explosive with weapons so over. BRob is a pass catcher. So is Gibson. Then when they try to take them away go back to Terry and Dotson. Or Brown or Thomas. That's what EB did yesterday.

It's chess. 

3 hours ago, MartinC said:

 

30 minutes ago, El Mexican said:

 

Ok, but who's the tower?

That would be the big WR, who we don't have on roster right now. 

2 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

I don't know how much credit I'd give EB for two broken plays. But you're arguing him as OC. He's fine as an OC. I do not want him as an HC.

I'm for him as a HC as I like him as an OC and think his type would be a good change of pace from Ron. 

46 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

Shanahan hadn't interviewed for a dozen Head Coaching jobs before getting the job in SF, that I am aware of. Shanny is also 12 years younger than Bieniemy, so the comparison doesn't really fit. (He also was in Cleveland for a year and smartly bolted when they drafter Manziel).

 

Something @Voice_of_Reason said that made sense at the time, but got me thinking more. We were discussing why we aren't getting the ball more to our WRs--and there are a variety of reasons, not solely Bieniemy's fault. But his contention was that defenses are taking away or WRs. Fair. But why are we not counter punching? Why are we not scheming our receivers open like many other teams? It took him half a season to adjust and make changes to the OL that has lead to Howell's surging lately. Gates was awful at C. They put Larsen and Paul in and the protection was much better. Sure, he gets credit for that, but why did it take so long? He seems very slow to adapt and adjust. If our Head Coach didn't resemble Abe Simpson at this point, I'd be fine with him as OC, but man, I have seen nothing that screams he's our next Head Coach.

 

So he's applying Ron's roster building approach?

So EB's system vs Kyle's are apple's and oranges. but what EB does as far as scheming guys open is like playing chess. Its not about getting Terry open. This is not the Heinike system. Terry and Dotson are the Queens of the system and Logan is a knight, BRob and Gibson are the bishops. we go into each game deciding which piece has the advantage and go there. Yesterday it was the bishops so we went there, and went back there for almost 200 yards. 

Other games people say that EB doesn't get WRs open, but they get open and drop the ball (looking at you Dotson and Brown). That's not on EB thats on them. 

1 hour ago, Riggo#44 said:

 

Every time I hear someone ranting about firing Rivera now and giving the reigns to Bieniemy, all I hear...

 

And I said this on Twitter--Bieniemy is pure Ashburn Syndrome. I don't think anyone else in the league would hire him as an HC now...well, maybe the Raiders.

See, I disagree with this, wholeheartedledly. Maybe I believed this before this season and even that was a stretch because I didn't even really care. But now that he is operating an offense and doing it well and developing a QB and we can say one of the top young QBs in the game, definitely one of the top 2 QBs in the 2022 draft class is something he can hang his hat on. 

I go back to the way this place said similar things about Kyle Shanahan and how nobody would want him and how he was nepetism and was too stuck up to get a HC job and all the other things said about him and now look at what he has built out in SF. Or forget that. Look at what he did in Cleveland. Look at what he did in Atlanta. Look at what he did in Houston before coming here.

EB now has a resume outside of Andy and that is what was holding him up - that people were saying he was using Andy as a crutch. Now he's not. And he's shinging in the light. Even if you want to say its not shining. We're better in yards per play, we're better at league rank in offense in both yards and points (where we're 16th in both) we were 20th and 24th last year. Better at getting first downs 11th vs 18th, tied in NY/A (with the sacks at 23), better at scoring percentage 24 vs 28. 

Its not an elite offense yet but he has a second year QB that he is developing. 

On 11/10/2023 at 9:18 AM, Warhead36 said:

I think you guys are underestimating how much of a need WR actually is. 

I really want to spend one of our seconds on a WR. I was underestimating it until yesterday but especially if we wind up keeping EB which I think is a possibility. I think we should get a BIG WR. I know we won't be able to get someone like Harrison or Odunze, but the question is how good are Keon Coleman and Xavier Legette. and Brenden Rice. 

I still want a legit OT (LT) with my first pick but would think of looking at a bigger offensive weapons for Howell. That said, I also would like a speedy back to pair with BRob or serve as the main guy like dallas replaced Ezek, although BRob did a nice job serving as a pass catcher yesterday. 

Yo be fair, I think they should compare Cousins 2015

Sam Howell played LB. That's something new