mistertim

Why would they go after a mid round rookie if they're looking for an upgrade? They already have a mid level guy in Heinicke. History shows that mid round QBs very very rarely work out. If they want an upgrade they should be serious about it and try to get the best QB they can. That's what SF did. They had a decent QB in Jimmy G but they knew they wanted an upgrade and moved way up in order to get their guy. And there's about a .00001% chance of Wilson or Rodgers coming here. So that's not a thing. I do agree about Matt Ryan and Carr. Given his age I don't think Ryan is really an upgrade over Heinicke and while Carr is probably an upgrade, I think he's only a slight one at this point so probably not worth the money or draft capital to get him. We'd be going from a cheap 15-20 range QB to an expensive 10-15 range guy. Not worth it.

Network architect here. I almost exclusively recommend point to point EBGP routing with IPv6 and 4 byte ASNs for large scale datacenter fabric underlays instead of OSPF or IBGP peering with loopback interfaces. ECMP with BGP makes loopback peering redundant and OSPF is just stupid and doesn't scale. Oh, and I got the Pfizer booster.

Eh, he'd need to understand that it's a business and that's a business decision. He's going to need thick skin if he's going to be an NFL QB. I'd look at us drafting a QB a bit like the SF and Jimmy G situation. Jimmy G is a decent QB and they even went to a SB with him, but he has limited upside so they knew they wanted an upgrade and they went out and spent and arm and a leg for a guy with potentially elite upside. I think this would possibly be a similar situation.

The buds are still fattening up decently, but you can see the phosphorus deficiency in the purple discoloration of the leaves. There are also some leaves getting dark spots and curling up on another plant which is apparently another sign of phosphorus deficiency. At first I thought it was nute burn, but I'd hardly been giving them much at all so I knew that wasn't really the issue. Hopefully I can fix the deficiency pretty quickly. Planning on giving them a good dose of Flower Stacker when I water tomorrow morning. So hopefully I'll have a decent idea of how much it helped in the next couple of days.

Um, if that's what you're going on, Heinicke is 5-9 as a starter. And can we please stop pretending that Heinicke is a rookie? His game experience is limited but he's been in the NFL for years so he's had way more time to get used to the speed of the game than an actual rookie.

He's playing at a very high level. He's #2 in the NFL in total QBR, he's thrown 27 TDs to 9 INTs with a 66.5 completion percentage.

Was about to post most of the same stuff but @goskins10beat me to it. It's not hard to see that Ron realizes the need for a franchise QB. I'm guessing Turner is even more adamant about it, albeit more behind closed doors as he's not the HC. Sure, Ron also said it could be possible to have more pieces in place first, but he clearly understands how important a franchise QB is to a winning team nowadays. He certainly didn't say "Yeah our plan is that we can pound the rock, control the clock, have a stingy defense, and have a QB who doesn't make too many mistakes and we'll be home free." He obviously realizes how important the QB position is in today's game.

Thanks, yeah I was surprised at how fast it came on, though it's possible that they showed some minor signs before now and I just didn't notice because I'm such a novice. Apparently phosphorus deficiency can be amplified in high light environments and I have a fairly powerful LED for a 2x4 tent so perhaps that's why it advanced so rapidly once it hit a certain threshold. I've read good stuff about Flower Stacker so hopefully it does the trick. I'd thought about possibly using dry amendments but those are just too slow acting and I want to try and halt the problem as soon as possible.

I'm not "ready to move on" from Taylor at the moment. I've liked some things I've seen from him but still have questions. And it could end up that I like him enough and am ok with him being the starter but I still would want an upgrade. WFT may very well feel that way too. SF felt ok with Jimmy G but clearly they felt they could get an upgrade so they went hard after Trey Lance. The Chiefs were winning with Alex Smith and still decided to get an upgrade and moved up for Mahomes. And yes you can build a team with a big time supporting cast, dominant defense, and a game manager QB. And if your running game and defense and game manager are good enough you'll probably have about a 2-3 year window to win a SB because stellar supporting casts simply can't be kept together for long nowadays. Ground and pound and controlling the clock and the Joe Gibbs method was 30 years ago. The game has changed. Pretty much every single NFL coach recognizes and admits that. Hell, Rivera is an old school defensive coach and he readily admits that these days you have to have that top franchise QB to be a contender year in and year out. As far as trying the flashy QB thing for 20 years, the problem there isn't that we've been trying, it's that we haven't hit on one. That doesn't mean you just give up and stop. Having a top QB is how you become a long term perennial contender now and every team knows it. So teams keep trying until they find one. Some get luckier than others. We've had ****ty luck, but hopefully that will change at some point in the near future and we'll be a relevant team for the next 10+ years.

Ok, do you think his trade value is a 1st rounder? That's what the gist of the discussion was regarding @Thinking Skinsclaiming he thought TH was as good as Stafford, who netted a 1st rounder plus. And who is "writing off" Heinicke? Disagreeing about him being as good a QB as Matt Stafford is not "writing him off." I think the jury is still out on him. He's played well the last few games but he's had an up and down season. He can be exciting at times but I think you may be overblowing that a bit. Maybe because of his personality? The truth is he's much more of a game manager at the moment than a big time playmaker. Which isn't necessarily a terrible thing. You can win with a game manager, a good running game, and a good defense. But you're unlikely to be a perennial contender that way. If we end up in a conference game, cool. That's not how I'm evaluating Heinicke. I'm evaluating his in game performances. If we end up in the playoffs and/or a conference game and it's because TH has been killing it and throwing a ton of TDs, that's awesome. That will tell me that he may actually end up as a top 10 kind of guy and we may have finally found out QB. If we get in and he's doing ok but mostly doing enough to not lose or cost the team the game, then I'll still be kind of meh on him. I'd be ok with keeping him as a starter next year but I'd still be looking for an upgrade.

@Fresh8686Those are looking great. Unfortunately I'm dealing with what I believe is a pretty bad phosphorus deficiency in my plants at the moment so I'm trying to remedy that with some 0-7-5 Flower Stacker. It's wild how quickly it happened too. They were looking fine a week ago and now are noticeably having some major issues. Maybe I waited for too long to start adding external nutes and was relying on my soil for too long in the worry of causing nutrient burn. Hopefully this Flower Stacker will help. I'm probably about 2-3 weeks away from harvest so hopefully that will give them time to rebound. The buds are still looking decent for the most part but leaves are definitely showing deficiency.

No, I don't have NFL GM or coaches on speed dial and I don't sit in on their meetings. But tell me honestly...do you truly think anyone has offered a 1st round pick for Taylor Heinicke? I know you really dig him (and I do like him in general as well) but in your heart of hearts can you seriously tell me you think it's likely that that happened? And if it did we turned it down? If our FO truly thought Heinicke was the future of this franchise they would have said so many times over by now. But most of what they've said is how important it is to find your franchise QB and getting an upgrade. Maybe Heinicke will change their minds, but it feels like that's likely to be an uphill battle. And sure, people overpay for QBs. Maybe the Rams overpaid for Stafford. But he's playing at a borderline All-Pro level right now. And I'd say GMs and coaches, while they'll overpay some (just due to positional value of QBs), do know more about QBs than most people on a message board. And both the WFT and Rams coaches and FOs thought Stafford was good enough to offer a 1st round pick and more for him. And anyway, I'm not the one who really brought up Stafford in general. He was on the list that @Thinking Skinsput out there and then claimed that Heinicke might be just as good a QB. I found that very dubious and explained why.

I get the feeling that "unaware of his surroundings" wasn't so much a dig at Heinicke mentally or his ability to process information, more that at times he doesn't seem to realize there are certain throws he just can't make. I actually agree with the article that Jimmy G is a decent comparison for him. But one thing I do disagree with a bit in that article is about Turner. I do think Turner has evolved his game plan over the last several games to try and limit things TH struggles with and emphasize the things he's better at. The article basically said that Turner's whole offense is based on throws that a guy with a below average arm struggles with. Closer to the beginning of the season I probably would have agreed, but over the last few games it seems like he's tailored his game plan more to TH's strengths. For example I've noticed far less outside the numbers out routes that Heinicke struggled with (and almost got picked off on at least 4-5 times over the first several games) and more short and intermediate routes between the numbers. Turner may ideally want a QB with a much bigger arm, but he's not stupid. I'm sure he knows what TH's limitations are and he wants to win games, so he started to reevaluate his system a bit IMO.

****ing blasphemer. Who the hell are you to say he's not #1? HAVE YOU SEEN HIS QBR???

Then Heinicke should have netted us at the very least a 2nd round pick if he's so good. But probably a 1st if he's as good as Stafford, who netted a 1st plus more. Why haven't we gotten any offers? Do you think maybe, just maybe NFL coaches and GMs know more about QBs than you? I'd challenge you to find a single GM or coach who believes Taylor Heinicke is as good as Matt Stafford. I mean...not that you're necessarily in contact with a bunch of them so it's mostly rhetorical. But I'd wager a lot of money that you wouldn't find a single one. But I'm sure they're all just too dumb to understand the majesty that is Heinicke.

I never said Stafford was an elite upper echelon QB along the Mahomes/Brady/Rodgers lines. But I think it's ridiculous to say he and Heinicke are on the same level. You seem to like QBR. Stafford has the #2 QBR in the NFL right now. IMO he's a legit top 10 QB, especially this season so far. I'm willing to bet there are precisely zero NFL coaches who would even consider taking Heinicke over Stafford if they had that choice. Again, we literally offered a 1st round pick plus more to try and get Stafford and so did the Rams. If Heinicke and Stafford were even close to the same level, the Rams would have just offered us a 2nd rounder for him and called it a day. I'm sure we would have taken that in a heartbeat considering what he cost us. I don't get why you keep trying these ticky-tacky semantic arguments. Nobody thinks Heinicke is as good as Stafford outside of maybe a few ODU fans.

I know you said "stats", but we're never going to get Stafford's ability out of Heinicke because there's an absolutely massive difference in natural talent. Stafford can do things with his arm that Heinicke can't even come close to doing, and that will cause limitations in play calling. Again that's not "stats", but it matters. Stafford is playing at a much higher level right now than Heinicke. There's a reason there was such a big market for him and that we were willing to give up a 1st and change for him.

That's a possibility. I think it also could be a possibility that Turner and company are relying heavily on the run game due to Heinicke's arm limitations. There are certainly other QBs who don't have all star pass catching talent but who air it out quite a bit. You shouldn't need multiple pro bowl receivers and tight ends to have an effective passing game, though you do need a QB with the arm to get it to the guys you do have. According to air yard stats, right now either Turner is focusing on the short game to play to Heinicke's strengths and limit his weaknesses, or Heinicke himself is tending to go shorter as he goes through his progressions.

Ok, that's fine. You want to compare him to those guys, have at it. But I doubt there's a single GM or coach in the NFL who would take Heinicke over Stafford, Cousins, probably Carr, and probably Wentz. Ryan is a probably a wash because of his age. Goff is also probably a wash; he's having a relatively poor year but he has talent and is on a team with easily the worst roster in the NFL. I might be able to see a team taking Heinicke over Jimmy G but IMO they're relatively close as far as players. I get that you think we can win with Heinicke and he's not a bad QB. Which he's not. But he's not a game changer. He's not a guy who can put a team on his back and toss a bunch of TDs if the defense isn't playing well. His upside is also limited due to his physical limitations. I think we can be a 7 or maybe 9 win team with him, if all other cylinders are clicking. But if they're not IMO he's not a dude who's going to be able to get past that. And really, that's a lot of QBs (as you pointed out). But that doesn't mean you can't keep looking for an upgrade at the position if you basically have a game manager. IMO the biggest issue with Heinicke is his lack of upside. If he had big time physical talent but was still raw then I'd say with his other attributes we've seen he could potentially end up in the upper echelon. But he doesn't have that. So at the moment he's a around a upper teens NFL QB. That could certainly change, but I still find it unlikely that he'd get above a middle of the pack player.

I could see Jimmy G comparison. Maybe Carr, but IMO he's still produced at a higher level over his career than what Heinicke is doing now. Stafford is a clear upgrade. Ryan at this point in his career probably isn't much of one but to be honest I've never seen him as a top 10 QB outside of 1 season. Wentz is probably an upgrade due to his physical talents, but might not be a huge one. Cousins would be a clear upgrade in theory and numbers, but he's always had the Tony Romo choke gene, so that always has to be taken into account. As far as where Heinicke lands on the QB range, I think 15 would be his ceiling due to the nature of his physical limitations and IMO he hasn't shown himself to be a game changer who can put a team on his back (so far). You mentioned "taking over a game" but I don't see that as just leading a 4th quarter comeback. To me a guy who takes over games is one who is throwing for a ton of yards, lots of big plays, and lots of TDs. That's what the top QBs in the NFL tend to do, and that's not Heinicke right now. At this point he's basically a game manger. If Heinicke had a career like Carr, Ryan, Wentz, Kirk, Jimmy G, etc then that's basically "ok" but not great so I'd still be looking for an upgrade. Pretty much all of those guys are good enough to help their teams get to middle of the road records, but not much more (with a few exceptions like Ryan when he was earlier in his career). And to be way up there near the top IMO Heinicke would not only need to lower the INTs, but up the TDs as well as be able to air it out more (IIRC it was @Skinsinparadisewho posted an infographic showing TH as one of the lowest in air yards). He's currently in the bottom half of the league in TDs and the top half in INTs. So yes, Heinicke is a serviceable QB at the moment, but he's still mostly a game manager and not a dude who really strikes fear into opponents I'm guessing. We could certainly do worse, but I think we could also do better. Teams with the QBs you mentioned are probably also looking for their own truly elite passer. That's why SF gave up a king's ransom for Trey Lance. Guys like Carr, Cousins, and Stafford have always shown just enough to give their teams hope that they'll make that leap into elite status, though none of them really have.

Nah, I don't actually enjoy losing games. But we're a completely mediocre team and we have been for years and without a top QB we'll continue to be a 7 or 8 win team most likely. That sort of record basically puts us in a spot to not be able to draft a top QB but with the added benefit of never actually winning anything of note. It's no-mans-land.

I hear you. I guess I just never personally thought of Mahomes as anywhere near as raw as a guy like Jackson or Willis, considering how great he was through the air. But yes your general point certainly stands. Every year there are those guys who are considered raw to one degree or another and those boom/bust guys are almost always a huge debate. I still remember being absolutely shocked when SF gave up a king's ransom to move up for Lance. I wasn't convinced by him, but those coaches and FO guys have forgotten more football than I know so they could certainly end up completely right.

I'm sorry but at the moment I really don't think he's a "franchise QB". As I already noted, my opinion can change over the rest of the season. But as I also said, as of right now he's a borderline middle of the pack QB. Yes we have him for another season on his current contract, but I don't think we're in danger of losing him to some ginormous contract like Kirk and I doubt we'd be offered much compensation for him in the way of draft picks. He can be fun to watch, is a baller, and seems like a great dude, but his limitations are real and I doubt most of the rest of the league sees him as a true franchise QB either. At the moment to me he's sort like of a Gardner Minshew. Fun to watch, is a baller, seems like to a really cool dude, but has limitations and at the end of the day was traded for a 6th round pick. Also...do you really really think Turner is holding him back? How? More importantly...why? I like Heinicke in general but it seems like every other week there's some excuse. Rivera, no supporting cast, OL (even though they're one of the highest ranked in the NFL), defense, now Turner? That's true and a fair point. My opinon of him has gone up, though it's still going to take more to convince me that he's an above average or true franchise QB.

I've already said that my view can change as the season progresses and I'm completely willing to do so with a whole season's sample size. But as of right now he's a borderline middle of the road QB. Not bad, not great.

Somewhat disagree here. Willis is a one read and run QB who's almost more of a RB than a QB. Mahomes was a passing juggernaut at Texas Tech. Yes he certainly ran for a fair amount of TDs, but he also passed for 93 of them (in only 3 seasons). IMO he was way way above where Willis is now as a pure passer. He was also playing against much better competition and had a crap supporting cast and defense so he basically had to do everything himself. He was regularly throwing up 3, 4, 5 TDs and his team still lost those games.