mistertim

Ok, do you think his trade value is a 1st rounder? That's what the gist of the discussion was regarding @Thinking Skinsclaiming he thought TH was as good as Stafford, who netted a 1st rounder plus. And who is "writing off" Heinicke? Disagreeing about him being as good a QB as Matt Stafford is not "writing him off." I think the jury is still out on him. He's played well the last few games but he's had an up and down season. He can be exciting at times but I think you may be overblowing that a bit. Maybe because of his personality? The truth is he's much more of a game manager at the moment than a big time playmaker. Which isn't necessarily a terrible thing. You can win with a game manager, a good running game, and a good defense. But you're unlikely to be a perennial contender that way. If we end up in a conference game, cool. That's not how I'm evaluating Heinicke. I'm evaluating his in game performances. If we end up in the playoffs and/or a conference game and it's because TH has been killing it and throwing a ton of TDs, that's awesome. That will tell me that he may actually end up as a top 10 kind of guy and we may have finally found out QB. If we get in and he's doing ok but mostly doing enough to not lose or cost the team the game, then I'll still be kind of meh on him. I'd be ok with keeping him as a starter next year but I'd still be looking for an upgrade.

@Fresh8686Those are looking great. Unfortunately I'm dealing with what I believe is a pretty bad phosphorus deficiency in my plants at the moment so I'm trying to remedy that with some 0-7-5 Flower Stacker. It's wild how quickly it happened too. They were looking fine a week ago and now are noticeably having some major issues. Maybe I waited for too long to start adding external nutes and was relying on my soil for too long in the worry of causing nutrient burn. Hopefully this Flower Stacker will help. I'm probably about 2-3 weeks away from harvest so hopefully that will give them time to rebound. The buds are still looking decent for the most part but leaves are definitely showing deficiency.

No, I don't have NFL GM or coaches on speed dial and I don't sit in on their meetings. But tell me honestly...do you truly think anyone has offered a 1st round pick for Taylor Heinicke? I know you really dig him (and I do like him in general as well) but in your heart of hearts can you seriously tell me you think it's likely that that happened? And if it did we turned it down? If our FO truly thought Heinicke was the future of this franchise they would have said so many times over by now. But most of what they've said is how important it is to find your franchise QB and getting an upgrade. Maybe Heinicke will change their minds, but it feels like that's likely to be an uphill battle. And sure, people overpay for QBs. Maybe the Rams overpaid for Stafford. But he's playing at a borderline All-Pro level right now. And I'd say GMs and coaches, while they'll overpay some (just due to positional value of QBs), do know more about QBs than most people on a message board. And both the WFT and Rams coaches and FOs thought Stafford was good enough to offer a 1st round pick and more for him. And anyway, I'm not the one who really brought up Stafford in general. He was on the list that @Thinking Skinsput out there and then claimed that Heinicke might be just as good a QB. I found that very dubious and explained why.

I get the feeling that "unaware of his surroundings" wasn't so much a dig at Heinicke mentally or his ability to process information, more that at times he doesn't seem to realize there are certain throws he just can't make. I actually agree with the article that Jimmy G is a decent comparison for him. But one thing I do disagree with a bit in that article is about Turner. I do think Turner has evolved his game plan over the last several games to try and limit things TH struggles with and emphasize the things he's better at. The article basically said that Turner's whole offense is based on throws that a guy with a below average arm struggles with. Closer to the beginning of the season I probably would have agreed, but over the last few games it seems like he's tailored his game plan more to TH's strengths. For example I've noticed far less outside the numbers out routes that Heinicke struggled with (and almost got picked off on at least 4-5 times over the first several games) and more short and intermediate routes between the numbers. Turner may ideally want a QB with a much bigger arm, but he's not stupid. I'm sure he knows what TH's limitations are and he wants to win games, so he started to reevaluate his system a bit IMO.

****ing blasphemer. Who the hell are you to say he's not #1? HAVE YOU SEEN HIS QBR???

Then Heinicke should have netted us at the very least a 2nd round pick if he's so good. But probably a 1st if he's as good as Stafford, who netted a 1st plus more. Why haven't we gotten any offers? Do you think maybe, just maybe NFL coaches and GMs know more about QBs than you? I'd challenge you to find a single GM or coach who believes Taylor Heinicke is as good as Matt Stafford. I mean...not that you're necessarily in contact with a bunch of them so it's mostly rhetorical. But I'd wager a lot of money that you wouldn't find a single one. But I'm sure they're all just too dumb to understand the majesty that is Heinicke.

I never said Stafford was an elite upper echelon QB along the Mahomes/Brady/Rodgers lines. But I think it's ridiculous to say he and Heinicke are on the same level. You seem to like QBR. Stafford has the #2 QBR in the NFL right now. IMO he's a legit top 10 QB, especially this season so far. I'm willing to bet there are precisely zero NFL coaches who would even consider taking Heinicke over Stafford if they had that choice. Again, we literally offered a 1st round pick plus more to try and get Stafford and so did the Rams. If Heinicke and Stafford were even close to the same level, the Rams would have just offered us a 2nd rounder for him and called it a day. I'm sure we would have taken that in a heartbeat considering what he cost us. I don't get why you keep trying these ticky-tacky semantic arguments. Nobody thinks Heinicke is as good as Stafford outside of maybe a few ODU fans.

I know you said "stats", but we're never going to get Stafford's ability out of Heinicke because there's an absolutely massive difference in natural talent. Stafford can do things with his arm that Heinicke can't even come close to doing, and that will cause limitations in play calling. Again that's not "stats", but it matters. Stafford is playing at a much higher level right now than Heinicke. There's a reason there was such a big market for him and that we were willing to give up a 1st and change for him.

That's a possibility. I think it also could be a possibility that Turner and company are relying heavily on the run game due to Heinicke's arm limitations. There are certainly other QBs who don't have all star pass catching talent but who air it out quite a bit. You shouldn't need multiple pro bowl receivers and tight ends to have an effective passing game, though you do need a QB with the arm to get it to the guys you do have. According to air yard stats, right now either Turner is focusing on the short game to play to Heinicke's strengths and limit his weaknesses, or Heinicke himself is tending to go shorter as he goes through his progressions.

Ok, that's fine. You want to compare him to those guys, have at it. But I doubt there's a single GM or coach in the NFL who would take Heinicke over Stafford, Cousins, probably Carr, and probably Wentz. Ryan is a probably a wash because of his age. Goff is also probably a wash; he's having a relatively poor year but he has talent and is on a team with easily the worst roster in the NFL. I might be able to see a team taking Heinicke over Jimmy G but IMO they're relatively close as far as players. I get that you think we can win with Heinicke and he's not a bad QB. Which he's not. But he's not a game changer. He's not a guy who can put a team on his back and toss a bunch of TDs if the defense isn't playing well. His upside is also limited due to his physical limitations. I think we can be a 7 or maybe 9 win team with him, if all other cylinders are clicking. But if they're not IMO he's not a dude who's going to be able to get past that. And really, that's a lot of QBs (as you pointed out). But that doesn't mean you can't keep looking for an upgrade at the position if you basically have a game manager. IMO the biggest issue with Heinicke is his lack of upside. If he had big time physical talent but was still raw then I'd say with his other attributes we've seen he could potentially end up in the upper echelon. But he doesn't have that. So at the moment he's a around a upper teens NFL QB. That could certainly change, but I still find it unlikely that he'd get above a middle of the pack player.

I could see Jimmy G comparison. Maybe Carr, but IMO he's still produced at a higher level over his career than what Heinicke is doing now. Stafford is a clear upgrade. Ryan at this point in his career probably isn't much of one but to be honest I've never seen him as a top 10 QB outside of 1 season. Wentz is probably an upgrade due to his physical talents, but might not be a huge one. Cousins would be a clear upgrade in theory and numbers, but he's always had the Tony Romo choke gene, so that always has to be taken into account. As far as where Heinicke lands on the QB range, I think 15 would be his ceiling due to the nature of his physical limitations and IMO he hasn't shown himself to be a game changer who can put a team on his back (so far). You mentioned "taking over a game" but I don't see that as just leading a 4th quarter comeback. To me a guy who takes over games is one who is throwing for a ton of yards, lots of big plays, and lots of TDs. That's what the top QBs in the NFL tend to do, and that's not Heinicke right now. At this point he's basically a game manger. If Heinicke had a career like Carr, Ryan, Wentz, Kirk, Jimmy G, etc then that's basically "ok" but not great so I'd still be looking for an upgrade. Pretty much all of those guys are good enough to help their teams get to middle of the road records, but not much more (with a few exceptions like Ryan when he was earlier in his career). And to be way up there near the top IMO Heinicke would not only need to lower the INTs, but up the TDs as well as be able to air it out more (IIRC it was @Skinsinparadisewho posted an infographic showing TH as one of the lowest in air yards). He's currently in the bottom half of the league in TDs and the top half in INTs. So yes, Heinicke is a serviceable QB at the moment, but he's still mostly a game manager and not a dude who really strikes fear into opponents I'm guessing. We could certainly do worse, but I think we could also do better. Teams with the QBs you mentioned are probably also looking for their own truly elite passer. That's why SF gave up a king's ransom for Trey Lance. Guys like Carr, Cousins, and Stafford have always shown just enough to give their teams hope that they'll make that leap into elite status, though none of them really have.

Nah, I don't actually enjoy losing games. But we're a completely mediocre team and we have been for years and without a top QB we'll continue to be a 7 or 8 win team most likely. That sort of record basically puts us in a spot to not be able to draft a top QB but with the added benefit of never actually winning anything of note. It's no-mans-land.

I hear you. I guess I just never personally thought of Mahomes as anywhere near as raw as a guy like Jackson or Willis, considering how great he was through the air. But yes your general point certainly stands. Every year there are those guys who are considered raw to one degree or another and those boom/bust guys are almost always a huge debate. I still remember being absolutely shocked when SF gave up a king's ransom to move up for Lance. I wasn't convinced by him, but those coaches and FO guys have forgotten more football than I know so they could certainly end up completely right.

I'm sorry but at the moment I really don't think he's a "franchise QB". As I already noted, my opinion can change over the rest of the season. But as I also said, as of right now he's a borderline middle of the pack QB. Yes we have him for another season on his current contract, but I don't think we're in danger of losing him to some ginormous contract like Kirk and I doubt we'd be offered much compensation for him in the way of draft picks. He can be fun to watch, is a baller, and seems like a great dude, but his limitations are real and I doubt most of the rest of the league sees him as a true franchise QB either. At the moment to me he's sort like of a Gardner Minshew. Fun to watch, is a baller, seems like to a really cool dude, but has limitations and at the end of the day was traded for a 6th round pick. Also...do you really really think Turner is holding him back? How? More importantly...why? I like Heinicke in general but it seems like every other week there's some excuse. Rivera, no supporting cast, OL (even though they're one of the highest ranked in the NFL), defense, now Turner? That's true and a fair point. My opinon of him has gone up, though it's still going to take more to convince me that he's an above average or true franchise QB.

I've already said that my view can change as the season progresses and I'm completely willing to do so with a whole season's sample size. But as of right now he's a borderline middle of the road QB. Not bad, not great.

Somewhat disagree here. Willis is a one read and run QB who's almost more of a RB than a QB. Mahomes was a passing juggernaut at Texas Tech. Yes he certainly ran for a fair amount of TDs, but he also passed for 93 of them (in only 3 seasons). IMO he was way way above where Willis is now as a pure passer. He was also playing against much better competition and had a crap supporting cast and defense so he basically had to do everything himself. He was regularly throwing up 3, 4, 5 TDs and his team still lost those games.

At 19 we basically have no hope of getting one of the top QBs. Outside of 2019 we've been mostly mired in mediocrity for years now. Looks like that will continue. *shrug*

1. I don't think it's necessarily a horrible thing for people to consider possible upgrades to Heinicke; and I don't think it's some sort of personal slight on the dude. I think most of what's been floated has been draft picks, not retreads. And the FO and coaches might see Heinicke as a placeholder as well (in fact from statements Rivera has made, it sounds like that certainly could be the case). He's a borderline middle of the road QB. Is it that hard to believe that the team might be interested in an upgrade? 2. Of course teams care about draft position. A high draft pick is a much bigger investment than a low rounder or a UDFA. Also why would it be surprising that a 21 year old 1st round rookie would get a longer leash than a 28 year old UDFA? Sure, Heinicke hasn't had much playing time before this season, but it's not like he's never walked on to an NFL field before. Whether you think it's fair or not, his leash is not going to be as long as a 1st round pick.

I'm not talking about running at all. I'm talking about the overall QB skill difference between Drew Brees/Russel Wilson and Chad Pennington/Tyrod Taylor. Those guys aren't even in the same galaxy. It just makes no sense as a comparison. As far as TH, if I had to make a comparison I'd say guys like Brees and Wilson are QB Ferraris and Heinicke is an MX-5 Miata. Middle of the road sports car and can get the job done, but certainly not a Ferrari (though to be fair, a hell of a lot cheaper than a Ferrari and can still get you from point A to point B well enough usually). As far as Wilson in particular, he's had a bit of a down year, sure. But he's one season removed from being a legit MVP contender with 40 TDs and 13 INTs. He was hardly the main reason they didn't get further into the postseason in 2020. As for high/low then take off for Mahomes and Allen, we'll just have to disagree. I've watched both of them go through multiple progressions and full field reads plenty of times before scrambling. Again, I think Jackson is more along the lines of the one read and run or high/low then run guys. For rankings, I don't necessarily think it's the end-all-be-all, but it does carry some weight. At the moment I see Heinicke as a guy who can get it done when other cylinders are clicking (run game going well, defense not ****ting the bed), but not a guy who's going to be able to put the team on his back like more elite QBs can. And maybe that's good enough for now. But IMO it's not enough to get this team to be a perennial contender because you can't always count on those other cylinders clicking. Again, that's unless he starts absolutely killing it over these last several games. And maybe Ron is fine with that sort of QB play. But I get the feeling that he really wants that upper echelon QB...or at least a guy with that potential. He's basically said as much. But who knows, maybe he's changed his mind...but eventually his job is going to be on the line and that's going to probably hinge largely on how well he handles the QB situation.

The attention on the names is because those names probably couldn't be farther apart if you tried. That's like saying "I feel like my car is a Ferrari, but if that bothers you then we can call it a Geo Metro." Yes Brees and Wilson are very familiar...but so are Ferraris. That doesn't mean either of us have one. As far as Wilson, that's fine if that's your opinion of him. Most differ there. There's very little doubt that he's a first ballot Hall of Famer, which carries just a bit of weight. As far as Mahomes, Allen, and Jackson, I can agree on Jackson. He's definitely more of a high-low read then run guy. But Mahomes and to a lesser extent Allen definitely aren't. You can watch them play an see them go through multiple reads. Neither one is a one-read-and-run guy. However, they are part of a newer breed of QB who are extremely athletic and have the capability of making lots of plays with their legs. Heinicke is a bit as well, to a lesser extent. But unfortunately TH doesn't have the kind of talent that both of those guys do. For my opinion of Heinicke, I've not made a decision about his whole season...I'm being patient there. But I have a pretty good idea what he's shown so far, which is where I agree with @Skinsinparadisethat he's a fringe teens QB who is a good game manager but not a top half of the NFL kind of guy. Now, if he suddenly lights it up and starts throwing for a ton of yards and TDs and big time throws for the rest of the season, that would change. But that's just not him at the moment.

It is. Brees did not have a weak arm. Russel Wilson and Brees are hall of famers. The idea that Wilson doesn't read the field well is nuttier than squirrel poop. The idea that Heinicke reads the field better than Mahomes and Allen is almost equally as nutty but somehow even more hilarious. Heinicke right now is playing more or less like a middle of the road QB. He's had some good games, some bad games, but it's not like he's unstoppable and lighting it up for 400 yards and 4 TDs per game. He's a game manager. Now, there's nothing necessarily wrong with that. But comparing him to some of the greats to play the position is ridiculous. I'm still giving TH the rest of the season, but I'm guessing that a middle of the road QB is not exactly what Ron and the FO have in mind. Sure, if they draft a guy, have an open competition. But pretty please stop comparing Heinicke to some of the best ever. (Though to your credit you didn't compare him to Brady, so there's that I guess).

Difference here is that whether you can get that super hot girl with all the intangibles isn't dependent on your looks, charm, or pocketbook. It's purely dependent on draft position. If you have a high enough pick (or can move up high enough) you can get that 9-10 range "girl".

IMO not in an appreciable way. Arm strength is mostly genetic and a result of natural torque, etc. Guys with huge arms pretty much always had that. Guys with mediocre or weak arms are mostly going to keep weak arms. I can't think of any QB who had a mediocre arm coming out of college and suddenly developed a cannon in the NFL. Yeah, you can tweak mechanics to improve it a little bit, but it's like vertical leap...you're limited by genetic potential. Sure, you can improve your vertical by an inch or two, but a guy with a 30 inch vertical will never be a guy with a 40 inch vertical. Likewise, a guy with a mediocre arm will never be a guy with a howitzer.

Hidden webcam video of Trump in his room at Mar-a-Lago later that day.