mistertim

I never said "consistently", though. I just said I'd like to see him in that situation and see if he's capable of doing it. The main thing talked about on here has been what people think Heinicke's "potential" is. Whether or not he's capable of sometimes winning a game with his arm when the rest of the team isn't stacking up is, to me, an indicator of his potential. If he can show at least the ability to put the team on his back and win with his arm would go a long way towards determining what that potential is. As far as projections, there have been a wide range, with some saying they think he could have top 10 potential. I'm open to the possibility but with his physical limitations I'm a little dubious. Being able to carry the team when need be would go a long way towards seeing him as a potential top 10 guy. As of now I really don't see it. So that's why I say 15-20 range guy. He's not bad, but he also likely needs a lot of other things going well in order to win (as in the last several weeks after the bye). As far as contract...why would we be lining up a new one for a middle-low tier starter? He's signed for another year for cheap and unless something drastic changes I doubt there are many teams who are going to throw crazy money at him in FA. I've seen this response before and to me it seems a bit knee-jerk. "Oh my god we have a guy who can play QB in the NFL, we have to extend him, STAT!" Why?

I think it would have been very difficult for any mediocre QB to have a good game yesterday. I said leading up to that game that (in my personal opinion) for the needle to move on Heinicke from being in the 15-20 range of QBs to a potential top half of the league or even top 10 guy, I'd need to see him demonstrate the ability to win games with his arm when the rest of the "equation" isn't all there...namely when the running game is shut down and/or the defense doesn't show up so we need to put up points fast. The defense played decent overall, but Dallas sold out to stop the run and, due mostly to turnovers, put up points fast to where we were in a hole. So that was pretty much exactly the situation I wanted to see him handle, and it wasn't pretty. So for me at the moment he's still trending towards being a 15-20 guy who can help you win games as long as the other aspects are firing on all cylinders, but without that he's not going to be a threat to take over a game with his arm.

This is something I've been trying to wrap my head around as well. Does our playbook not have hot reads? Do we not have any way to beat it when a team brings extra guys like Dallas was doing all day yesterday? If we do have that baked into the system, why isn't Heinicke hitting them? Is he not seeing the pressure pre-snap? Is he not adjusting protections properly? Is he just not looking at his hot for some odd reason...trying to do too much and not wanting the quick stuff? IIRC Rivera noted yesterday in his post-game presser that Heinicke was holding the ball too long, so clearly we're not the only ones who see it.

Yeah it was on a rollout, though Heinicke did have time to mostly set his feet. Still not quite as stable a base as if he were in the pocket, but decent. Then again, it also wasn't a precision throw where he was trying to thread the needle. He just needed to get enough on it to get it into Cam's general area.

I really hope Heinicke sends Terry a gift basket or something. He's hung him out like that too many times. This play I think illustrates an issue with Heinicke, which is that when he gets behind or isn't playing well at first, he tries to make up for it with big plays that he simply doesn't have the arm to make. He gets into the gunslinger mode without having the requisite skills to be that kind of QB. I appreciate the mentality but it gets him into trouble. That was how he ended up with another couple of throws into double and triple coverage that luckily ended up as dropped INTs. On this play he had 2 guys open for a 1st down, one of them being blatantly open, as well as enough green grass in front of him to run for a 1st, but he chose instead to heave up an underthrown bomb to Terry, which wound up with Terry concussed.

One thing about Heinicke being out of the pocket...we know he can scramble well when need be, but do we actually know if he's any good at throwing on the run? He doesn't do it very often from what I can remember. A guy with a below average NFL arm might have trouble getting the necessary torque for those kinds of throws without being able to set his base and put what he needs into it.

I really think we need to just leave any QB who has a no-trade clause off the list entirely. Nobody wants to come here; we're definitely far from a destination spot. So Wilson and Watson are out. Rodgers technically doesn't have a no-trade clause but he's a dude who you know will try to make it as miserable as possible for everyone involved if they try to trade him to a team he doesn't want to go to. I agree with others that Carr probably isn't going anywhere. That only leaves a few guys, and all are "meh". Ryan is a possibility, though I'm still a bit dubious that they'll try to get rid of him, because that's $40+ million dead cap hit; probably better to draft a guy and keep Ryan for another year or two as a bridge QB. Teddy B is the ultimate "meh" QB, so if we got him super cheap I suppose I wouldn't absolutely detest it...but if it's true that he'll be asking for $25 million per year then that's a hard hard pass. Trubisky has talent but has never shown himself to be anything more than a 15-20 range QB, which is exactly what we already have. Mariota might be another possibility, though I'm wondering how much he'd ask for in FA if they do let him walk. He might also choose to go to a team where he's basically "the guy" instead of just a QB who has to compete for a job. There's only so far we can kick a QB can down the road before drafting another one high.

TH has shown that he can get it done if everything else goes exactly as planned. If the defense plays really well, if the running game is successful, if the OL blocks well. If those things happen, then he's shown that he can be a reliable game manager and move the chains when necessary. But if one or two of those aren't there, we're in trouble. If the defense doesn't show up, we're not built to win shootouts. If the running game doesn't materialize, Heinicke isn't a guy who has shown the ability to put the team on his back and win with his arm (see yesterday). If the OL doesn't block well, he definitely has the ability to scramble, but as we saw yesterday he seems to hold the ball way too long when pressured and he still seems hesitant about running nowadays for some reason. Just because we missed on 1st round QBs in the past doesn't mean we should just throw our hands up and decide to start picking mid or late round guys. Non 1st round QBs have a far bigger "bust" rate than 1st rounders.

Dallas basically stacked the box, sold out vs the run, brought multiple guys for pressure most of the time, and then dared Heinicke to beat them with his arm. It was pretty successful. I'm not so sure that most QBs would necessarily have struggled. A couple of issues were that the scheming or design didn't seem to account enough for extra rushers, and that even when they did try to account for extra guys, Heinicke would often hold the ball too long (something Rivera said in his post-game presser as well). Our OL was also banged up and lost their individual battles at times as well, though they were up and down most of the game. As far as accounting for the pass rushers, it's pretty much impossible to say whether that was on the OC or the QB without actually being in the game prep meetings. The OC is responsible for play design and packages for games, but the QB is often responsible for calling protections at the line. Who were the hot reads? Why didn't we seem to get to them enough? Why not do more rollouts, naked boots, etc and get Heinicke out of the pocket more? Again, pretty hard to say without knowing the plays and game plan.

It's not "offensive", it's just dumb. People are emotional and pissed off that we lost so they decide they want us to go out and play like cowards, bullies, and losers. Dallas was simply the better team today. More talent, less injuries, better game plan, better execution. Becoming dirty players isn't the answer. Better preparation, more talent, and better execution is. Stop with this low road nonsense.

Yeah, the faux-tough-guy thing is getting dumb. "We should have body slammed guys and punched them in the throat" is exactly the kind of **** that losers do because they're not good enough to win with talent and execution. Give it a rest, Charles Bronson.

It's outdated for a reason: because it doesn't actually work. It's the equivalent of "rub some dirt in it." It's a meaningless thing that dumbass people came up with to sound tough. But in reality if you rub dirt in a wound it just gets infected. "Punch them in the mouth" philosophy is just a bunch of mumbo jumbo for the most part. Of course you want to play physical, but it's a physical sport so there's very little getting around that. What matters is talent, planning, and execution. And we were simply lacking in all three of those today, it seems.

You forgot the most important one: "It" Do you have "it"? "It" Is crucial.

Unfortunately, our whole philosophy after the bye: "Pound the rock, control the clock, stingy defense" only works it all 3 of those elements are there and if we're at least close in the score. If one of those goes bye-bye then it's pretty much all out the window. We couldn't establish the run game so we couldn't control the clock. We give up points and a strip sack TD and next thing you know we're behind by 20. The Dallas defense committed to stopping the run and forcing Heinicke to throw, thinking he wouldn't do very well. They were right. The only reason we were even in this game is the defense. Did they give up points? Yes. But the fact that they only gave up 20 to a team that has possibly the best offense in the NFL and was averaging 30 is pretty decent, especially considering how many drives started in our territory due to our offense ****ting the bed. I get people being pissed that we lost, but that whole 80s philosophy was never sustainable, and being equally mad at the offense and defense for the loss is silly.

I mean...technically yes they certainly had something to do with the loss since they gave up points. But again, they allowed less points than Dallas was averaging. Did you really expect us to hold possibly the most potent offense in the NFL to 10 points or less? That was never going to happen. Holding them to 20 points is actually pretty good. Obviously not good enough to ovecome the fact that our offense was a complete joke though. If a team scores 40 points but loses 42-40 are you really going to blame the offense and defense equally?

Our defense allowed 20 points when Dallas was averaging 30 per game. Our offense scored 14 points when Dallas was allowing an average of 22. One of these things is not like the other. I get what you're saying but the "bothside-ism" view is off base here IMO.

Carr would probably cost a 1st plus more. I think he's definitely an upgrade to Heinicke talent-wise, but is he that much of an upgrade? I'm dubious.

If we had some talented but raw rookie waiting in the wings or a vet who's a clear upgrade I'd say sure. But we don't. We have Kyle Allen who's also completely mediocre. Yes, he can make some throws that Heinicke can't but I don't think he's really an upgrade overall, because Heinicke does seem to have that clutch gene that comes through at times. I also feel like Heinicke just deserves the chance since he's played above expectations so far and he's always been a bit of an underdog. Just give him the season. Let's see how well he can shake off this performance.

Heinicke's physical limitations are pretty clear, but I think he's earned the right to start the rest of the season.

Yeah I really hope we aren't the ones to do something dumb like this over the offseason. Heincke vs Bridgewater is mostly a wash IMO, and we have Heinicke for $1.5 million next season. I'm all for an upgrade at QB, but I'm not for a small (if any) upgrade for a bunch of money (or draft picks).

The Dallas offense scored 20 points. Is this seriously the hill you're trying to die on? One of the most potent offenses in the NFL, and our defense held them to 20 points. The defense did its job. The offense was a putrid mess.

Yeah true. I was just saying that our defense actually held them to 20...which is very impressive, especially considering the huge TOP disparity. Our defense was not the problem today by any means.

Anyone willing to pay Teddy Bridgewater $25 million per year on a multi-year contract is out of their gourd.

I'd also note that IMO it should be 20 points in there instead of 27, if we're talking about points allowed by the defense. The sack-fumble-TD shouldn't count against them.

I'm going to have to watch the game again to be sure, but I also wonder if perhaps Heinicke fell victim to that most nefarious, vile, and depraved defensive scheme known to human kind...