KDawg

Offensively speaking I don't believe things can go worse. Heinicke is the worst starter in the league statistically. (That said I'd take him, for us, over other starters, but not because of his skillset... because of his grit, will and ice cold blood in his veins). I don't think it can get worse.

Okay, my memory is a bit foggy.... But are they practicing on dead grass? Words cannot describe that.

Howell was my QB1 in this draft class and had him as a first rounder. Getting him in the fifth was like we won the lottery.

No, they do not. Not for any reason whatsoever. If Howell is believed in then why waste time with a guy who is going to cost $26M against the cap next year and could allow us to sign two competent OL? Makes no sense. See what you have in the rookie and let that dictate the plan. Playing Wentz over Howell at this point is stupid. I don't understand why folks are afraid of Howell but are fine with Heinicke. It makes absolutely no sense. What are we going to do, be worse? I can see that concern with Wentz. He's a statue. But Howell lost all of his weapons and played behind an OL that you would have started on his senior season and he was still fantastic. He fell because he wasn't a Heisman Trophy candidate and that spooked teams. The guy was being heralded as a top 10 pick in the years prior. And his senior season was not a fall off year. It was a different year. I think the NFL missed the boat on Howell. Badly. And I can't wait to see if I'm right.

So… not top 25. Which is what I asked. Got it.

Is it possible to get a headcount of people who actually think Heinicke is a productive, good quarterback? He’s likable. His style lends itself to some big plays at times due to the risk. He’s got good “skills”. But he has a weak arm, limited running ability, short(which isn’t always a knock but it is combined with the other issues) and he is a risk taker. I don’t get defending him if you don’t think he’s a top, say, 25 guy in the league. So, if anyone thinks that there are no more than 24 QBs better than him, please leave your name here. I’m extremely curious. *Note: I want to be clear. Heinicke is a better fit for us than many of the lower end QBs types in the league due to his familiarity with the system. So this conversation is NOT about his familiarity with our OC. So for the sake of this conversation, assume Turner is the head coach of the Pawtucket Red Sox and we have a new OC.

Other QBs have more wiggle room to allow for mistakes. Being a QB does not allow for equal treatment for all. They are not all the same. That needs to be understood and grasped.

You’re missing 2 fumbles, 2 lost, TD allowed to add to that stat line. Heinicke didn’t play pretty good. He’s 32/32 and that’s starters. Include backups and he is further back than that. We need to stop excusing him because he makes some good plays. Which he certainly does. But his play as a whole is way below par.

Again, it's a lot different watching it from there versus on the field. Heinicke isn't a tall guy. So he has to navigate that. He sees the defender and he's not share if the defender is faking him out or truly crashing. Ends are smart. They know they can mess with a QB's reads by disguising what they are doing and at times dictate what the QB actually does. That doesn't mean they can't be fooled. I'm not sticking up for Heinicke necessarily here. But I have seen people try to run this stuff a lot in my coaching tenure and I can tell you that if it was easy it's all anyone would ever run at any level of football. It's not easy. The reads can be tough. The guys who are good at it just have a knack for it. And generally they are either total statues (so when they keep it its an absolute shock) or they are athletes and the ends aren't going to play games with them. It's hard to run it with a guy who is known for having the ability to use his legs but mostly a statue because the defense knows that QB is shark chum and they can dictate what he does 9/10 times. The play he kept it Thibs crashed harder and Heinicke was out the back gate. But if that is a cloudier read it's a tough decision. We can talk about it from our camera view perspective all day. But trust me, it's a lot different on the field.

Read option is a lot harder than people think it is when it comes to reading an end. The way they rush/play can vary down to down. Sometimes it may look like they are crashing but they are giving a false read because of the RO. Defenses don't make it easy. Some guys are great at running it and setting it up. Guys who are larger threats to run as a QB get more respect and less games from the read players, too. Because they have to contain the rush. Heinicke isn't exactly a major threat for a few reasons, so they mess with him more.

Yes. I agree completely. Our offensive line is horrendous. And its talent and schematics. Whether that’s on the OC, personnel or the OL coach I don’t know. But they need to work it.

I said that, didn’t I? Absolutely. Teams that stick to protections that you can predict I blitz them in ways to defeat their protections.

I still really wish the practice squad had 2-3 reserved spots for protecting quarterbacks to be developed. I think a big part of why there are so many guys who fail as a QB is because they aren't given time to develop. I think that's so important. I'd also reach a deal with the XFL/USFL and allow my guys to go play there. It's not NFL but it is minor league and the QBs could really benefit from reps. Downside is language and terminology vary so much in football that unless the teams were directly affiliated with a NFL team it just wouldn't work. The 2-3 protected QB spots on the PS is a better answer.

It is partially on him. As the QB you have to identify the front, understand the blocking scheme, and have an idea where things might break down. When you are in an empty set you have to be super aware of things like that. Of course, Turner and the OL share some blame, too. More than Heinicke… up until the fumble part.

Yup. Meant to include him. Adding now.

Taylor Heinicke was responsible for two major turnovers, both inside the scoring zones (one in ours, one in theirs) and directly contributed to 7 points for the Giants. He also had an interception that was dropped that has graciously allowed us to complain about poor officiating instead of putting the focus on a player that deserves criticism: Taylor Heinicke. Having said that, if Scott Turner calls another inside run to Curtis Samuel, or insists on a ridiculous number of WR run attempts ever again I may drop kick a baby seal (I'm kidding. I'd never drop kick a baby seal. I'm not athletic enough at my age and nor do I wish to harm any of our friends in the animal kingdom, this is an analogy for being frustrated). Empty set inside our own 5 yard line? Bold strategy, Cotton. But it didn't pay off. Also, our offensive line has five players that are replacement level with Cosmi being the only wild card. Going to sidetrack away from this game and onto the team for a moment, but I find us to be in a bad spot. We refused to play Howell, which means unless Rivera decides to get bold, we won't see him this year. That means, that without even seeing Howell in action, we will need to be in the QB market next year unless they think Howell is the second coming of Montana in practice. We run the risk of starting Heinicke (who is a FA) or Howell (who I'm high on but we've never seen in a pro regular season game) or keeping Wentz to the tune of $28M. We could try to bring him back at a reduced salary, but they refuse to play him even when Heinicke isn't playing well so that would be a really odd decision. Our offensive line needs replacement across the board. Our wide receivers are fantastic. Dyami Brown has found his stride as WR4 and the top three go without saying. That Dotson catch last night was surreal. Our tight ends are beyond disappointing. Our running backs are solid. Defensively we need another corner, though our corner play has been at worst average since we got rid of Jackson. Our safeties are solid. We have one good linebacker (Davis), one FA (Holcomb who I view as a backup). We need at least one starting piece there. Our DTs are among the top duos in the league. But our defensive ends should be on milk cartons. One of the two could and should be traded this offseason. I'd opt for Sweat because Young has an extra year on his deal and we invested more in him. Can't expect high end talent at every position but TE, OT, OG, C, ILB is way below par. Edge is overpriced vs. production. But the biggest issue, and one we don't seem to have any real plan to remedy is the quarterback spot. I'd start Howell. Yes, even against SF. But we know that isn't going to happen. Of course the McLaurin penalty needs to be mentioned. By rule, it was a penalty. However, given that he checked with the official and the way the rule is interpreted I don't believe it should have been called. McLaurin was even with the OT. The Head Ref said that you have to break the belt line of the center to be considered as being on the LoS. That is accurate. However, Terry was in line with the OT, who was considered to be on the LoS. When there is a tight end they are next to the OT and considered on the LoS. So the rule is bent and negotiated in that way all the time. In this situation, on a rule that is never called by the book, I don't know why they'd call it by the book. And don't get me started on the pass interference call on the last play. Having said all that, we aren't in those positions if Heinicke's horse shoe didn't prevent the Giant DB from catching the pick on the play before the McLaurin play. Yes, there was a bad snap. But Heinicke didn't even bother to look. Caught and threw that thing without reading a single variable. On the drive after the Heinicke fumble (not the touchdown fumble, the other one) the defense came out and got run over by the Giants. It was evident on that drive that the defense had realized that with Heinicke at QB their chances of winning were diminishing and they came out flat. The moxie magic is wearing off. I'm sure I left some stuff off. Feel free to discuss. I'll add thoughts I have as we go. Studs and Duds: *** - Kam Curl - He doesn't miss tackles and he hasn't been given the credit he deserves on a week to week basis. *** - Jahan Dotson *** - Brian Robinson *** - Tress Way ** - Terry McLaurin * - Darrick Forrest * - Danny Johnson - Scott Turner - Taylor Heinicke - The entire OL (whatever combo it was this week) Season to date: * x 19 - Daron Payne * x 18 - Terry McLaurin * x 15 - Jon Allen * x 11 - Jahan Dotson * x 11 - Brian Robinson * x 9 - Curtis Samuel * x 8 - Darrick Forrest * x 7 - Montez Sweat * x 7 - Antonio Gibson * x 7 - Jamin Davis * x 6 - Benjamin St-Juste * x 5 - Kam Curl * x 5 - Kendall Fuller * x 3 - Tress Way * x 3- Dyami Brown * x 3 - Back Judge in Vikings Game * x 3 - Jack Del Rio * x 2 - Joey Slye * x 1 - Danny Johnson * x 1 - Scott Turner * x 1 - Rachad Wildgoose * x 1 - James Smith-Williams * x 1 - Jonathan Williams * x 1 - John Bates x 1 - Wes Schweitzer x 1 - Jon Bostic x 3 - Taylor Heinicke x 3 - Cam Sims x 3 - Entire OL (whatever iteration in Giants Game II) x 4 - Scott Turner x 4 - John Ridgeway x 4 -Rivera's Clock Management x 5 - Charles Leno x 5 - Trai Turner x 6 - Nick Martin x 6 - WJ3 x 7 - Sam Cosmi x 8 - Andrew Norwell

The defense didn't make big plays. But they are not more to blame than Heinicke. Seriously, this is borderline wild.

The Giants are averaging 20.4 points per game. The D allowed 13. The Commanders are scoring 19.4 points per game. We scored 12. The O also allowed 7.

Defense? You're blaming... Okay. You're not a real account. This was created to laugh at those of us who watch the games. I've figured it out.

Live look at FLSkinz83: The mental gymnastics are impressive.

They absolutely can go with Howell. It just is a big cahone move. If it works, you find a franchise level QB, can be set at the position to worry about shoring up other important needs and you may be in the playoffs. If it doesn't work Rivera's seat is a bit warmer, it puts an emphasis on QB in the offseason.

Our entire QB situation is awful. I would have went to Howell weeks and weeks ago (before the streak if I'm being honest). Now we will enter 2023 offseason with the plan that Wentz is gone (if he's not and we keep him at his salary... the FO needs to be fired), Heinicke is a FA and Howell with no experience. We dropped the ball. The only way to make that okay there is to actually make the playoffs at this point. It's not looking good.

He is not a solid QB.

Not every QB is as limited as Heinicke. So the mistakes aren't as deflating. Your defense of him is strange.

There is nothing over the top about blaming Heinicke for the mistakes HE made. And no worries, I've been criticizing the OL all season, even when Wentz was the QB. And Turner was awful last night. Just because they've all been bad doesn't exonerate Heinicke.