The Jay Cutler argument for sticking with Mike Shanahan

In Dan Snyder's shoes, I would not have hired Mike Shanahan. My goal would be to build the number one team in the NFL and to hold that position indefinitely. I didn't think it likely that Mike was either willing or able to achieve that goal. I still feel that way.

But, in 2008. I never missed a chance to watch the Broncos play because they had the best young quarterback-athlete I had seen since John Elway. I envied Broncos fans their future with Jay Cutler on their team. Then Mike was fired and Jay was traded to Chicago.

The Bears paid a fair price for Jay Cutler, but their coaches didn't know how to build a scheme to use him. They took a Formula one quarterback and put him in a Corolla scheme with poor receivers and a weak O-line. He has taken a pounding for three years. Now, Jay is playing on a gimpy knee. The waste of a talent like that is a crying shame.

Robert Griffin is better than Jay Cutler ever was. It would break my heart to watch him suffer a fate like Cutler's. Mike is building around the best quarterback who has ever played the game at any level. I trust Mike Shanahan not to screw up the job. I fear that, if Mike was fired, we would get a head coach like McDaniel who didn't realize what a gift he had been handed.

With Dan Snyder as the owner, the Skins are unlikely to become the number one team in the NFL in my lifetime. So, if I must settle, then allow me the pleasure of watching the super-talented RG3 in a scheme that fits. Win or lose, it's a helluva lot of fun.

Let's hope Mike can take us far, and Kyle can take over when Mike calls it quits.

OF, I have posted a number of times on my concerns for RG3 on this team. Both in terms of long-term health and of a career that, even if stellar, is a fraction of what it would be like on a top ten roster. I am not paranoid, durability-wise, but am still 50/50 on if we will have the resources and intelligence in personnel decision-making to build around him optimally.

Next season will be a huge indicactor (durr).

I am still with you on (early as it still is) this kid being better overall than any I have ever seen.

I think Mike/Kyle are going to be here for a while, but i do ever concerns about the evolving door of D-coordinators if this defense doesn't get fixed. I am so confident that we are going to be in the playoff run next year that there would be no reason to fire him. You aren't going to find any better than MS.

... am not paranoid, durability-wise, but am still 50/50 on if we will have the resources and intelligence in personnel decision-making to build around him optimally...

If you trust Mike to do well with RG3, then why would you think Snyder has any impact on the team being #1 in your lifetime? Snyder did what we all wanted and stepped aside. What impact is he having that would hold the current team back? I think the thread was going well but then abruptly ended in a negative doomsday comment that frankly doesn't make sense to me and seems born out of dislike instead of rationality. I just don't see any significant impact Snyder is having currently on the team that would hurt their potential.

Shanahan knew what he saw in both Luck and RG3 which is why he traded so much to get to #2. He has done well with good QBs and even mediocre ones. I trusted him on draft day to do well with RG3 because the historical trend was there.

The last couple have games have eased my mind on the durability issue. I think they've cut back on the injury exposure considerably -- one more reason to trust Mike's handling.

Yes, and that RG3 is indicating he has good sense in that matter, too--part of my extremely high evaluation of him counts his intelligence (general as well as football) and judgment (decision-making, particularly quick-response type).

If you trust Mike to do well with RG3, then why would you think Snyder has any impact on the team being #1 in your lifetime? .....

In Dan Snyder's shoes, I would not have hired Mike Shanahan. My goal would be to build the number one team in the NFL and to hold that position indefinitely. I didn't think it likely that Mike was either willing or able to achieve that goal. I still feel that way.

Well, since your argument here OF is mainly based on speculation and opinion, I'm going to have to say I (as well as elk, I'm sure) are going to heavily disagree with you. If anything, Mike has shown he's totally willing and being patient enough to rebuild this team from the ground up with defined schemes.

You can say all you want about the McNabb trade (I know that's your strongest argument to the contrary), but I refuse to believe the notion that trading for what you hope to be a franchise QB to stabilize the position that most affects the other positions on offense for a few years was "taking a shortcut" and "proves he's not trying to build from the ground up". I think too many other moves prove that wrong. We are targeting young guys in Free Agency and are going for quantity AND quality in the draft. The only position Mike seems to be willing to forego this philosophy on is the QB position, and I heavily agree with him on that. He places a higher value on that position. I think we're reaping the fruits of that right now.

As for the Defense, it's easy to see what needs to be done there. We clearly need at least an above average Safety, a stud CB and a better coordinator. Those three things alone make this 3-4 an elite one in my mind.

If you trust Mike to do well with RG3, then why would you think Snyder has any impact on the team being #1 in your lifetime? Snyder did what we all wanted and stepped aside. What impact is he having that would hold the current team back? I think the thread was going well but then abruptly ended in a negative doomsday comment that frankly doesn't make sense to me and seems born out of dislike instead of rationality. I just don't see any significant impact Snyder is having currently on the team that would hurt their potential.

Shanahan knew what he saw in both Luck and RG3 which is why he traded so much to get to #2. He has done well with good QBs and even mediocre ones. I trusted him on draft day to do well with RG3 because the historical trend was there.

You over react to the comment. The concern with Snyder "still" is very real. An owner should project some sort of accountability (thus be involved and informed) to be felt by the GM/HC (our hierarchy there is less than ideal to many informed arguments). It's been gone over in length in other threads and I'm not going to repeat it--it should be easily enough extrapolated anyway. But ideally there needs to be some form of mission statement with some clear and specific goals (plans/outlines) beyond "win", made in collaboration with your GM/HC hiring.

Snyder is a very real concern if Shanahan has a bad year next year on his end, and the "hands off" or "staying with my 5 year commitment, just to be doing that for a change", takes precedent over "I know what we agreed to, and I hate once again pulling the plug, but this is not where we should be and I don't want to see things get set back further." Obviously, this is how based on what actually happens and how events really fit to what factors, but if the deal is "it doesn't matter how it goes, you're here for 5 years, win or lose or whatever, because I'm 'hands off'", than that's a big concern.

Snyder had 10+ years to meddle in it and should see (as a business man) the positive results of letting football professionals handle the team. The drafting is going great and the team plays with good spirit. I believe the Defense will be recovered by 2014 when they return to full salary cap. By then veteran FAs will be begging to play in Washington for reduced salaries.

Until then, its clearly up to the WRs to carry this team. We know exactly what we're getting at every other position. When the WRs show up to play, they win games.

And TSO, not long ago half the board was starting to be done with Shanahan (OF was leery from the start and has been consistent). Now OF's posting (mildly) on that element as a side matter is somehow "way out there" ?

Please.

You over react to the comment. The concern with Snyder "still" is very real. An owner should project some sort of accountability (thus be involved and informed) to be felt by the GM/HC (our hierarchy there is less than ideal to many informed arguments). It's been gone over in length in other threads and I'm not going to repeat it--it should be easily enough extrapolated anyway. But ideally there needs to be some form of mission statement with some clear and specific goals (plans/outlines) beyond "win", made in collaboration with your GM/HC hiring.

Snyder is a very real concern if Shanahan has a bad year next year on his end, and the "hands off" or "staying with my 5 year commitment, just to be doing that for a change", takes precedent over "I know what we agreed to, and I hate once again pulling the plug, but this is not where we should be and I don't want to see things get set back further." Obviously, this is how based on what actually happens and how events really fit to what factors, but if the deal is "it doesn't matter how it goes, you're here for 5 years, win or lose or whatever, because I'm 'hands off'", than that's a big concern.

Gotta agree with Jumbo on this. But I think Oldfan is saying something different than you here. He's saying Snyder is at fault for hiring Mike in the first place. What you're saying is totally different and more of a relevant response to elk... I do agree that I'm scared of Snyder. After reading about the things he says and does from people close to him he freaks me out big time. And that's not from the anti-Snyder media.

This board has a lot of crazy (we're sports fans--check that---we're extreme NFL fans ).

It just shifts some tones, or "kinds of the crazy", between wins and losses, among other things.

And TSO, not long ago half the board was starting to be done with Shanahan (OF was leery from the start and has been consistent). Now OF's posting (mildly) on that element as a side matter is somehow "way out there" ?

Please.

Did I say "way out there"? Not even close kind sir!

I was just stating that I disagree with his opinion that Mike can not or is not willing to make this the #1 franchise in sports.

Oh, and I've been incredibly consistent throughout all of this on that as well.

Nailed it perfectly. You absolutely cannot fire Mike Shanahan, or if you must, you must hire someone running a similar offense, or promote Kyle to HC. No, Shanny will never nail every draft pick or build a #1 team on both sides of the ball. We'll probably never have an elite defense like what the Niners or Texans enjoy. But we can certainly build an absolutely unstoppable offense that can win a Super Bowl or two.

Gotta agree with Jumbo on this. But I think Oldfan is saying something different than you here. He's saying Snyder is at fault for hiring Mike in the first place. What you're saying is totally different and more of a relevant response to elk... I do agree that I'm scared of Snyder. After reading about the things he says and does from people close to him he freaks me out big time. And that's not from the anti-Snyder media.

Yeah, I get that, but Snyder-fear was peripheral to his main point as I took it (a reason to STICK with Shanahan--read what he wrote--he thinks Shanny should stay with RG3), and even so, his criticism component is consistent with what he's said from the beginning, and (as I pointed out) we will have half the fan base swinging wildly, back and forth, on the same angle given a win or a loss. I was responding to elk's emphasis of OF's Snyder comment.

Sooo....anyway....

Did I say "way out there"? Not even close kind sir!

I was just stating that I disagree with his opinion that Mike can not or is not willing to make this the #1 franchise in sports.

Oh, and I've been incredibly consistent throughout all of this on that as well.

Wasn't assigning that to you as much as a general tone I thought likely to continue (since it's OF and knowing the turf and seeing your and elk's replies--no slam intended).

Well, since your argument here OF is mainly based on speculation and opinion, I'm going to have to say I (as well as elk, I'm sure) are going to heavily disagree with you. If anything, Mike has shown he's totally willing and being patient enough to rebuild this team from the ground up with defined schemes...

We can disagree on that with no effect whatsoever on the argument in the OP.

In summary---

Rg3 is a better talent than Cutler;

Mike handled Cutler well in Denver;

Cutler's talent was wasted after he left Denver;

Mike Shanahan is unlike to screw up RG3's career;

Therefore, we should stick with him.

Yeah, I get that, but Snyder-fear was peripheral to his main point as I took it (a reason to STICK with Shanahan--read what he wrote--he thinks Shanny should stay with RG3), and even so, his criticism component is consistent with what he's said from the beginning, and (as I pointed out) we will have half the fan base swinging wildly, back and forth, on the same angle given a win or a loss. I was responding to elk's emphasis of OF's Snyder comment.

Sooo....anyway....

lol, yes, anywaaaay....

We're honed in on two different issues here. I'm more focused on Oldfan's response to elk about not believing Mike can or is willing to build a no.1 franchise. You're more focused on the OP. Apples and Grapefruits.

My argument has nothing to do with whether or not Mike Shanahan is willing or able to build a team that be number one in the NFL. I wrote my opinion on that so that readers would understand where I'm coming from.

We can disagree on that with no effect whatsoever on the argument in the OP.

In summary---

Rg3 is a better talent than Cutler;

Mike handled Cutler well in Denver;

Cutler's talent was wasted after he left Denver;

Mike Shanahan is unlike to screw up RG3's career;

Therefore, we should stick with him.

See my response to Jumbo here... I know, I wasn't really responding to the OP, lol.

But, in a sense, I'm adding to it. I don't think it's the ONLY reason to stick with Mike. Not even close. We disagree there.

Apples and Grapefruits.

That's what I put in the blender this morning with greek yogurt and vanilla protein powder (mixed thick, frozen, and then sprinkled with walnuts and blueberries ).

---------- Post added November-23rd-2012 at 10:20 AM ----------

This is what actually concerned me recently, OF---that I (like it's up to me) am more reluctant to let Mike go if next year is iffy performance-wise on his end, because of connection to best RG3 development.

It complicates matters if there's an issue. If it's a good year, no issue.

Wasn't assigning that to you as much as a general tone I thought likely to continue (since it's OF and knowing the turf and seeing your and elk's replies--no slam intended).

Understood.

I'm honestly tired and exhausted of all the arguing. I really got frustrated after the Panthers game from just how rabid everyone got and how many threads were created about how awful the direction of this team is... so I stopped. I stopped even coming here. After the Eagles game, I came in a few times just to see what people were saying and was disappointed to see so much "well, the Eagles suck" and "it means nothing" type of responses. That was it for me. After the first half of the Cowboys game I honestly felt bad for those who don't get to taste the sweetness of faith being rewarded, even if it was just for a moment. I got murdered for it there and it was like the one thing I said in a few weeks, lol.

I guess what I'm trying to say is I'm not going to harp on anything anymore. I'm going to disappear when this place gets out of hand and, even when it's not, I'm cutting down. I'm starting to realize (as I think Califan has already) that it's just more about anonymous internet rage here than anything else. It's like you have to try hard now to search for the good stuff. It stinks cuz I love this place.

I'm going to be more like you Jumbo and probably even more than that... I noticed your posts count becomes considerably less when it gets crazy around here. Smart man.

...But, in a sense, I'm adding to it. I don't think it's the ONLY reason to stick with Mike. Not even close. We disagree there.

I wrote what I did so that readers unfamiliar with my posting history would understand that I wasn't just some silly homer supporting Mike because he checked his brains at the door before becoming a Skins fan.:pfft:

That's what I put in the blender this morning with greek yogurt and vanilla protein powder (mixed thick, frozen, and then sprinkled with walnuts and blueberries ).

---------- Post added November-23rd-2012 at 10:20 AM ----------

This is what actually concerned me recently, OF---that I (like it's up to me) am more reluctant to let Mike go if next year is iffy performance-wise on his end, because of connection to best RG3 development.

It complicates matters if there's an issue. If it's a good year, no issue.

That sounds deliciously healthy.

My God how I wish we got to see this team without the cap penalty in place. For me, it really throws all expectations out the window. I'm actually impressed we've handled it as well as we have. Some of the injuries we have on this team this season would've been absolutely devastating in years past and would have lead to total collapses. To see how guys have come in and actually produced for us has been unlike any Redskin season previous to this one in years.

So, with that in mind, I just can't help but want to see the full five years. I also can't help but believe Mike is going to turn this around and make us a dominant franchise for years to come.

---------- Post added November-23rd-2012 at 11:27 AM ----------

We certainly do disagree there -- and that's one of those topics where you cherry-pick facts to support your opinion and I cherry pick'em to support mine for about forty pages of thread.

I wrote what I did, so that readers unfamiliar with my posting history would understand that I wasn't just some silly homer supporting Mike because he checked his brains at the door before becoming a Skins fan.:pfft:

We should be ashamed. There are people starving and we have baskets of cherries rotting away in our kitchens.