Portis & the Counter Trey vs. Zone Blocking & Stretch Plays

I'm sitting here trying to figure out how the Redskins offense will be better next year, and its not the passing game that I think will have the most impact. It’s the running game. With Gibbs, minus his first year in '81, it's always been about the running game first and foremost.

The general consensus seems to be that Gibbs will move away from the traditional counter trey and implement more stretch plays & zone blocking plays to accommodate Portis. If he runs like he did in his first 2 years in Denver then I'm all for it.

But I have a few concerns that maybe some of you coaching types could shed some light on.

Zone blocking means everyone blocks a gap in a particular area, hence the name zone. There's no pulling, no counters. It's pretty straight ahead. A stretch play is similar to a sweep in that it goes to the outside, and the blockers stretch out to one side, and the ball carrier picks a gap to run through.

Ostensibly, Portis "lacks the patience" to run the traditional counter trey – that’s what the pundits say. Portis is better suited to the zone blocking because speed is his main asset, and the zone play allows him to enter the second line of defense before the linebackers can make a play – that’s the theory anyway. But doesn’t it take patience to run a stretch play? It seems to me that it does. And didn’t Portis gain a ton of yards with that play in Denver? So I’m not sure what all this “Portis doesn’t have patience” nonsense is all about.

Which brings up the traditional counter trey. I think the reason that we won’t much of it next year is because when two linemen pull, it leaves to big an area for a speedy DE to run through, and he can blow up the play from the backside. So last year I noticed that Gibbs started to run a modified version of the counter trey, with only one lineman pulling. We had some success running that play, as I recall.

The point I’m trying to make here is that I’m not sure running a lot of zone plays is the best idea. One of the things that the trey did was it wore down the linebackers. In the 4th quarter, when a LB saw Jake Jacoby barreling down on him for the 20th time, he really didn’t want to take on that block. So he didn’t, which allowed the RB to gain another 3-5 yards minimum, every time.

There’s a school of thought that says great coaches adept to the talent they have on their team, rather than forcing a scheme that doesn’t cater to their players’ ability. But I think the counter trey can still work, because athletes haven’t stopped getting tired and reluctant to take on blocks from men who outweigh them by 50+ pounds. If Portis can succeed with the stretch play, then he can succeed with the counter. I sincerely hope that the offense doesn’t abandon the counter in favor of trying to get Portis a home run every time. Football is largely about wearing down your opponent, like a 12 round boxing match, and the counter wears down people. I think it’s time for Portis to embrace a tried and true running scheme, and just wait that extra half second for things to develop, and he’ll have his best year ever.

Originally posted by E-Dog Night

I'm sitting here trying to figure out how the Redskins offense will be better next year, and its not the passing game that I think will have the most impact. It’s the running game. With Gibbs, minus his first year in '81, it's always been about the running game first and foremost.

The general consensus seems to be that Gibbs will move away from the traditional counter trey and implement more stretch plays & zone blocking plays to accommodate Portis. If he runs like he did in his first 2 years in Denver then I'm all for it.

But I have a few concerns that maybe some of you coaching types could shed some light on.

Zone blocking means everyone blocks a gap in a particular area, hence the name zone. There's no pulling, no counters. It's pretty straight ahead. A stretch play is similar to a sweep in that it goes to the outside, and the blockers stretch out to one side, and the ball carrier picks a gap to run through.

Ostensibly, Portis "lacks the patience" to run the traditional counter trey – that’s what the pundits say. Portis is better suited to the zone blocking because speed is his main asset, and the zone play allows him to enter the second line of defense before the linebackers can make a play – that’s the theory anyway. But doesn’t it take patience to run a stretch play? It seems to me that it does. And didn’t Portis gain a ton of yards with that play in Denver? So I’m not sure what all this “Portis doesn’t have patience” nonsense is all about.

Which brings up the traditional counter trey. I think the reason that we won’t much of it next year is because when two linemen pull, it leaves to big an area for a speedy DE to run through, and he can blow up the play from the backside. So last year I noticed that Gibbs started to run a modified version of the counter trey, with only one lineman pulling. We had some success running that play, as I recall.

The point I’m trying to make here is that I’m not sure running a lot of zone plays is the best idea. One of the things that the trey did was it wore down the linebackers. In the 4th quarter, when a LB saw Jake Jacoby barreling down on him for the 20th time, he really didn’t want to take on that block. So he didn’t, which allowed the RB to gain another 3-5 yards minimum, every time.

There’s a school of thought that says great coaches adept to the talent they have on their team, rather than forcing a scheme that doesn’t cater to their players’ ability. But I think the counter trey can still work, because athletes haven’t stopped getting tired and reluctant to take on blocks from men who outweigh them by 50+ pounds. If Portis can succeed with the stretch play, then he can succeed with the counter. I sincerely hope that the offense doesn’t abandon the counter in favor of trying to get Portis a home run every time. Football is largely about wearing down your opponent, like a 12 round boxing match, and the counter wears down people. I think it’s time for Portis to embrace a tried and true running scheme, and just wait that extra half second for things to develop, and he’ll have his best year ever.

I don't think they'll abandon the trey all together, but I would expect a modified form. And i would think that with Portis' extra work on "waiting" to hit the hole at the right time, that the Trey can still be effective. When it is the center of your offensive scheme it can be easy to stop, but when it is just one more additional component of an entire offense i think it can be effective.

This can be switched up at any time and we can use Betts, fullbacks, and even Portis - or even as a "disguise" to throw off the defense . . . once we can connect on a few downfield pass plays early in the games; the run game should be wide open, whether we use strecth plays or the coiunter-T. The possibilities are endless. Now let's just hope the offensive line can grasp things quickly.

Originally posted by E-Dog Night

Ostensibly, Portis "lacks the patience" to run the traditional counter trey – that’s what the pundits say. Portis is better suited to the zone blocking because speed is his main asset, and the zone play allows him to enter the second line of defense before the linebackers can make a play – that’s the theory anyway. But doesn’t it take patience to run a stretch play? It seems to me that it does. And didn’t Portis gain a ton of yards with that play in Denver? So I’m not sure what all this “Portis doesn’t have patience” nonsense is all about.

Well, I'm no coach, but I think I can answer this. The thing with the counter-trey is that you HAVE to wait for the play to develop. With the stretch/zone blocking plays, Portis gets the ball and hits the first available hole. That could open up immediately, or could open up further down the line. The thing is, though, is that he is running the entire time the play is developing. With the counter-trey, he has to pause for a second, then hit the hole. He was getting the ball at top-speed, and beating the pulling linemen, or meeting them at the hole instead of waiting for them to clear it.

BTW, I read a quote from Portis (its on this board somewhere) that said he averaged 5 ypc on stretch plays, and only 3.8 over the season. If he can get 5 ypc all next season, I don't care what they're running!!!

The counter trey is used all overall the NFL these days, it is being able to call it at the right time and place.

The right time I think these days would be in the 4th qtr.

and use our newly acquired Mini-Bettis.

Originally posted by budski

The counter trey is used all overall the NFL these days, it is being able to call it at the right time and place.

The right time I think these days would be in the 4th qtr.

and use our newly acquired Mini-Bettis.

Which guy are you referring to?

And I agree, it would be nice to get a lead and hold it every once in a while while running the CT. It just seemed that last year, we'd get a lead, and run the balls three times and punt for 4 straight possessions. We lost a few games that way last year. I can't tell you off the top of my head which plays we were running at the end of games in those situations but I seem to remember that they were the straight ahead variety.

I think Joe and Clinton will get this running game going one way or the other, Joe adapts plays to his players and our O-line will be second to none this year.

Sorry cant remember the guys name, but hes 5'11' and weighs like 240.

Broughton maybe?

Originally posted by budski

Sorry cant remember the guys name, but hes 5'11' and weighs like 240.

Broughton maybe?

Let's not forget about Betts, he had some GOOD games when CP went down.

Originally posted by budski

Sorry cant remember the guys name, but hes 5'11' and weighs like 240.

Broughton maybe?

Yeah, we drafted two guys that are really similar to each other.

Nehemiah Broughton, FB 5-11 250

Manuel White, Jr., 6-2 244

At 5-11 250, Broughton is a tank. I wonder if he can play in this league, though. The Citadel doesn't exactly play a tough schedule. But ther have been many players to exceed from small colleges to succeed in the NFl, so we'll see.

I kind of doubt he'll be getting many touches in the 4th quarter this year (or any quarter, for that matter), unless we're blowing someone out. I see him getting in on 3rd & 4th a yard, occasionally.

I frame advanced all of our running plays for 4 or 5 games last year, trying to figure out what was going on. It's just like JRockster said: Portis would start to hit the hole before it developed, then seeing the LB's hovering he would try to change direction and find another seam. A different kind of back would have crashed into the hole and try to knock the LB's backwards for a 4-5 yard gain. That just isn't his style. His athleticism was remarkable to watch play after play as he found his own seam, but since he wasn't in sync with his blockers he ended up taking on a big body anyway and only got the 3 to 4 yards. What I liked was that when push came to shove, he still buried his helmet into the big guys and tried to knock them down. I love CP. I think we are going to see an all pro year from him in 2005.

Use them all, keep defenses on their toes, mix'em up. Portis is used to the zone plays, but now he has a season + to learn patience with trey. Portis' biggest asset is his speed, so with zone plays, he hits the gap in one big hurry. With the trey, he has to wait for the play to develop, but once it does, he has an extra blocker on that side. Once the guard gets in front of his an hits the LB, CP is in the secondary, where is speed is again dangerous.

W the zone stretch play it is designed to allow the RB to pick his hole and hit it...Ideal for Portis b/c he is very fast and on stretch plays defense's will overun the play and CP can hit the gap created and take it all the way...

The Couneter Tray is alot slower to develop as CP had to wait for his to pulling lineman to come around and lead the play, and as you stated w/2 lineman pulling CP got caught from the backside alot....We did modify the play as Gibbs sometimes would have the TE pull around and allow the backside tackle to stay at home and cut off the backside...We will see both plays...

Let me tell you why the counter-tray didn't work last year. Because our Center sucked thats why. If the center can't hold the line and even push a little to give the pulling guard and tackle the room to run its all for not. That is why we weren't as successful with it last year. Lets face it the only team that has had huge success with this running play were the skins because our OL during the SB years were studs, could run well and we didn't have the DL blowing in from the center of the line. I bet you anything if we get Rasbach playing well this play will have huge productivity this year. also don't forget that Samuels had an ankle problem. another negative for that play as he coudn't pull as fast.

Greek, what we read about Rabach is that he has the speed to get outside. Apparently the plan is for the backside guard to stay at home and let Rabach pull. It's the same as you described, but just substitute the center for the pulling guard.

Ok here it is..

Counter Trey, atleast one lineman pulls, most of the time two. Usually the Center and the Guard on the side the play is designed to go. they Pull out and become lead blockers for the running back..

Portis's problem with this is, I don't think lack of patience, but lack of trust. He's also going to be twice as fast as teh guys blocking for him, so his instincts will tell him to turn up the juice. I think the lack of trust issue will be resolved this year.

Zone blocking.. Your offensive line kind of moves the defensive line in unison in a particular direction left or right. Portis will get the ball and kind of flow with the line until he see's a hole he likes. This gives his several options.. continue to go with the flow of the line and find a hole infront of him, or what he's more famous for, is finding a hole in the backside of the defense and hitting it, going against the flow of the lines.. This causes the defense a lot of problems because they're already going one way and it's much harder for the big guys to change direction that fast.

So if Portis can get through the front 4, he can use his speed and agility to try to get past the linebackers and safeties.

However without an effect passing game this will be a moot point because defenses will jsut stack the box again.

You are right about the trust. There were plays late last year where CP was looking to bail out before the lineman even had made contact. He wasn't doing this in earlier games.

Frame advance on the TIVO is very precise.

With the Stretch play the back is able to run at top speed from the moment the play starts. Once he has the ball his job is to run as fast as possable to the sideline and once a hole oppense run through it, if one doesn't open get to the outside and turn it up. With Counter Trey the running back has got wait for a second for the linemen to pull and make there blocks. However, the running back is watching guys come stroming down at him, get anxious, and starts running before the linemen have had a chance to set the blocks. Not to mention that like you said E-dog, the D-linemen are so much faster now that they are able to get through the vacated hole from the pulling linemen and break the play up in the backfield.

I think that we will see a lot of the stretch play type stuff this season, but we will still see the good 'ol Counter Trey every now and then as well.

Originally posted by TheGreek1973

Let me tell you why the counter-tray didn't work last year. Because our Center sucked thats why. If the center can't hold the line and even push a little to give the pulling guard and tackle the room to run its all for not. That is why we weren't as successful with it last year. Lets face it the only team that has had huge success with this running play were the skins because our OL during the SB years were studs, could run well and we didn't have the DL blowing in from the center of the line. I bet you anything if we get Rasbach playing well this play will have huge productivity this year. also don't forget that Samuels had an ankle problem. another negative for that play as he coudn't pull as fast.

I think you may be on to something here, about the center position. Its not a coincidence that Rabach was the first person we signed in the off-season.

The perfect example is his very first touch as a Redskin (you can view it in the film room forum). I'm not sure if it is a counter-trey, but Robert Royal pulls left to knock out a LB. Portis steps right, then comes back left, which is the signature of every counter play. As soon as he gets the ball, Royal is only half-way down the line; if he followed Royal he would have run right into him. Instead, he cuts back to the right and the open field. This is what CP does best anyway; finds the cutback lanes. Which is why he will be successful in the zone-blocking scheme.