Adams and Westbrook way too similar.

[Art]

The latest article in the Post shows the same type of attitude from Adams that Westbrook displayed last week. The, "I need to get what I deserve or I won't play," nonsense Westbrook was spouting. While Adams has a point that he probably shouldn't be getting lowballed by teams, you have to wonder at the complete failure to understand that what you are worth is determined by the market, and not by some number you wrote down on a piece of paper in February.

I'm not a huge backer of signing Adams despite the fact that bringing him in would clearly give the Redskins an immensely more solidified line position. I'm wondering though if the increasing signs of being a money first and only player that he's giving off is a turn off to those of you who are very hot to go after him?

[Guest SkinsHokie Fan]

Honestly I have no problem with players trying to get "what they justly deserve." Obviously what that is is different to players and the front office. And of course these few years is all the time that the majority of these players will have to make good money. They are going to try and maximize it. I can see why Adams says he deserves whatever amount he wants but I also know that he will end up playing for a far less salary then what he feels he "deserves"

[OrangeSkin]

His agent probably got him convinced that he's worth an 8mil signing bonus. I don't really see anything wrong with that, except that teams may be wary of his past and an 8mil signing bonus goes to sure things, not risks. He'll come down, and when he does, we'll be here.

I don't really see anything wrong with trying to get teams in desperate need of a DT to pay you more than your worth, if that's what you can get...I mean, it's not exactly ethical, but who cares about ethics in the business of football, right?

[Tommy-the-Greek]

Art, I want to know what you think he is worth. I think he is worth a 4mil signing bonus and a 3-5 year contract with a base of 1 1/2 mil a season with incentives. Does anyone think a 29 yr.old 2 time probowl DT not worth this???

What does everyone think Adams is worth?

[Brave]

Those numbers sound more reasonable IF, and only if, you are getting a guy of mind and body to come in and play his best game. Now, I know it can be difficult to tell beforehand how motivated an individual is. I like the thought of Adams on the D-line, but we've been burned by the "can't miss" guys before. I can understand teams being gunshy.

[Art]

Tommy, what you're asking is difficult to answer. Would I pay a $4 million signing bonus to a 29-year-old, two-time Pro Bowler? Sure. Would I pay that to a guy who was generally a career underachiever and who thinks he's worth substantially more and may find that he is insulted by only getting a $4 million bonus when he's a 29-year-old, two-time Pro Bowler? I don't know.

That Adams is SO CLEARLY driven by money concerns me. I don't begrudge a guy wanting to make the most money possible, but, when that is all that seems to be on his mind, it tells me that if the team that gets him doesn't meet whatever number he has created in his own mind as his fair value, then, perhaps he'll be let down and bloat and play a little less hard because of it.

He is just striking me as a guy that would take plays off and come up with the argument, "Hey, you're only paying me X, so, you're only getting so many plays out of me." That may be a completely invalid opinion. It just worries me that all that comes out of his mouth is about the best contract. Nothing about winning. Nothing about joining the team he fits best with. Nothing about joining a team and retiring with them. None of even the most basic political statements players can make when a free agent.

Just, "Give me what I deserve," and what he deserves is going to be what the market will bear. Will I be pleased if we signed Adams to the countract you outline, Tommy? Sure. I'll also be wary.

[BlitzFiftySix]

Players like Adams, Marco Coleman and Michael Westbrook are worth more than what they are being offered these days but lets not forget that they are merely being affected by the same labor agreement that the players union agreed to by majority vote a few years ago. They cannot be bitter about the same system that they put into play. But hey, you wont here me show any sympathy for a guy who "ONLY" gets a 2 million dollar signing bonus instead of an 8 million.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

Originally posted by tommy-the-greek

Art, I want to know what you think he is worth. I think he is worth a 4mil signing bonus and a 3-5 year contract with a base of 1 1/2 mil a season with incentives. Does anyone think a 29 yr.old 2 time probowl DT not worth this???

I agree strongly.

Sam Adams is not only a two-time Pro Bowler -- he made the Pro Bowl the last two years straight playing for the same defensive coordinator he'd be playing for here. On a Ravens defense considered the league's best over the last two years, he was one of only three Ravens to make the Pro Bowl either year (the others were Ray Lewis and Rod Woodson). Further, across the entire NFL, only three other interior lineman made the Pro Bowl for the last two years (Pryce, Sapp, Glover), so you can make the argument that Adams is one of the top four DTs in football.

What more do you want?

We just gave Renaldo Wynn a $3.5M signing bonus, with six years of base salaries running $525K, 1.5M, 2M, 3.5M, 4M and 4M. We may not want to sign Adams for as long a period (I'd sign him for four years), but it's hard to imagine an argument that Wynn is worth more than Adams.

Just because Stubblefield was a bust doesn't mean every DT free agent will be the same, particularly when the player will be playing under the same defensive coordinator as he did when he made the Pro Bowl.

[TennesseeCarl]

I think Atlanta brings up a good point. Sam Adams has been to several Pro Bowls. Michael Westbrook has seen a Pro Bowl on t.v.

[Art]

TC,

Two is not several. But, the point is fair. Though, how much of it is related to Marvin Lewis and the whole of the Baltimore scheme. There is no question that despite diminished stats, Adams played his best football in 2000 and he played pretty well last year.

I just get a bit worried when a guy is so beholden to the dollar that no other factor really matters in the decision. Unlike a guy who is looking for a good contract, but who may take less from one team than another because the fit is better, Adams will end up with the team that gives him the most. That's fine. If that amount is what he sees as satisfying, he'll be fine. If it's less, he seems to be the type to get upset with the "disrespect" and play less hard.

Again, I just worry about what I'm seeing coming from his mouth. To me, it's really no different than Westbrook other than the Pro Bowls. But, if you put Westbrook with Mike Martz, he might go there too. Lewis is a coordinator that is well respected and gets good play out of his guys. Adams is a guy I'd be happy with getting. He's also a guy I'd be worried about getting.

[NavyDave]

Being selected to the pro bowl doesnt always mean pro ball play in the regular season.

Is he going to be in 4 to 6 million dollar Signing bonus shape when he reports to camp?

Or will he be flubbifield fat with a house full of raven memorabilia happy that he robbed his new team of a big pay day?

I'm starting to think wanting for camp cuts until we address DT in the draft next year is the way to go.

[fansince62]

gotta side with the players on this one....their peak earning years don't last very long. get what they can: if someone is willing to pay, more power to em!

[GURU]

Adams' worth may not be the question at all.

The first question to ask is whether or not he is a good fit. On the surface, he may be. But will he be a good teammate? Will his contract affect future signings, or re-signings? These are important questions.

Adams implied some important things in this interview. He says he only wants to go to a contender, but he wants to get paid what he thinks he's worth. The thing is, teams who are contenders rarely have tons of cap space. If Adams were really interested in winning, he would be willing to compromise, and would say so. But he says he would rather sit out than play for less.

One more thing. If I hear, one more time, that these players are just looking out for their families, I'm going to scream! Does anyone here disagree that you could provide for your family quite nicely on an NFL minimum salary? I'm not against exploring what the market can bear. I'd rather see the players get the money than the owners. But c'mon! This reminds me of Patrick Ewing, a few years back, saying the NBA owners were taking food out of the mouths of $20 million-a-year players' children.

Ya know, there's business savy, and then there's flat out greed. It's not hard to spot the difference.

[bulldog]

in economic terms, you are worth what someone else is willing to pay you

more often than we like to admit in life who gets paid what is a factor of being in the right place at the right time, ie being up for a new job or contract at a time a company or organization needs your skills very desperately.

Adams COULD have gotten a good contract if he had been more approachable in March and April.

Instead he threw the dice on getting a huge deal after June 1.

The trouble with that theory was that this year a lot of teams didn't wait to spend and secured veterans early.

And then when June 1 came, there was less movement of 'star' players than in years past when some interesting veteran names went into the pool.

I agree with Art that Adams is a guy who could blow up on a team IF he has to sign for less in the end and feels he is being disrespected.

He may sulk through the season playing at perhaps 80%.

True his 80% may be better than what a lot of DT's are capable of around the NFL, but it could mean coming to camp in poor shape and getting injured.

It could also mean being a divisive force in the locker room.

It is instructive that Adams was one of the first veteran players that Mike Holmgren sent packing when he was in Seattle after that first trial year.

I think it was in part because Adams was a guy that is somewhat prickly and difficult to coach and get along with.

In any event, he isn't going to be a Marco Coleman or Darrell Green type leader on this team.

At most you are going to get another Wilkinson. A guy who has talent and plays well, but only gets motivated to be truly outstanding a few games a year.

Is that worth a $4 million bonus?

I don't think so.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

Originally posted by bulldog

At most you are going to get another Wilkinson. A guy who has talent and plays well, but only gets motivated to be truly outstanding a few games a year.

I don't get this. Adams through his Pro Bowl appearances has been identified as one the three critical players in the NFL's best defense over the last two years -- the other two being Lewis and Woodson. Further, Adams has been identified as the reason Lewis was free to be a dominating tackler.

Wilkinson has never been voted to the Pro Bowl.

So, no, "at most" you are not going to get another Wilkinson. At most you are going to get a Pro Bowl player who will enable Dotson to play DE on running downs, further solidifying the run defense, and protecting Trotter to be a Lewis-type tackling machine. A solid run defense will also prevent a situation where our great pass defense is wasted because teams run on us all day long.

Is there a possible downside? Sure. But with the same defensive coordinator, the odds of a major Stubblefield-style letdown are low. Barring a major injury, I'd say the worst downside would be Wilkinson-level performance, which we obviously could live with.

I just don't understand this reluctance over Adams. If you want to save money over the next few years, cut Bruce Smith and Sam Shade now. It's insane to keep Smith and Shade and plead poverty over Adams.

If I'm running this team, I'd sign Adams, Willie Jackson and Ray Brown, then resign Jansen and Bailey to extensions, all before the regular season starts. If the cap won't allow all of the above, then I'd cut Smith and Shade and restructure other contracts as necessary. Adams, Jackson, Brown, Jansen and Bailey are all far more valuable than Smith and Shade.

[GURU]

I think you are overrating Adams' contribution to the Ravens' success on defense. I don't want to appear to be underrating it, either, because Adams was a cog, an important one, in a dominating defense. But saying he was the main reason for Ray Lewis' success is preposterous.

Lewis would be a Pro Bowler no matter what system he was in. If he played behind a Tony Dungy-type attacking defensive line, he would still be a dominating linebacker. In fact, ver much like Jeremiah Trotter was in Philadephia's defense the last two season--except even better.

I agree with bulldog's assessment of Adams and Wilkenson. In fact, Wilkenson has already proven, statistically, that he is a better pass rusher and makes more big plays. And Wilkenson was praised by many outside the organization for his play last season, which was noticably the most consistant of his career. Pro Bowl selection aside, if you broke down film on these two players, I think you might find that Big Daddy had a better season. But being on a Super Bowl contender vs. missing the playoffs affects Pro Bowl voting. Fair or not, it always does.

The Skins already have a potentially very good run defense. They were one of the best in the league during the second half of last season. They should be better this season, because Santana Dotson is an upgrade over Kennard Lang against the run, and Renaldo Wynn is bigger and stronger than Marco Coleman.

I don't care how you break it down, even cutting Smith and Shade won't free up enough money to sign all those people.

Plus, if you can't understand the reluctance to sign Adams, then you probably don't understand the importance of team chemistry and long-term planning, either.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

Originally posted by GURU

if you can't understand the reluctance to sign Adams, then you probably don't understand the importance of team chemistry and long-term planning, either.

Condescension noted.

Your post is particularly amusing, since if you looked at the current Redskin roster, the top two names under "bad for team chemistry" right now are the two guys you seem to be backing, Wilkinson and Smith, both of whom skipped the voluntary workouts.

I'll let Marvin Lewis decide what works best for team defense and long-term planning. Since he's been working the phones to Sam Adams all off-season, he seems to have a different opinion than you. I guess you'd be better running the defense than Lewis.

I trust Marvin Lewis's judgment about the player. The only question is dollars, and my posts have simply outlined that Adams is worth more than players making similar money, such as Wynn, Smith and Shade. Until Adams clearly costs considerably more than these players, you can't call Adams overpriced. At the same money, he's underpriced.

[Awgustlab]

Guru said: "One more thing. If I hear, one more time, that these players are just looking out for their families, I'm going to scream!"

Ya know, "We make more, but then again, We also spend more".

Wasn't that Patrick Ewing that said that?

[bulldog]

perhaps Adams' selection to the pro bowl is more attributable to the team he is on than vice versa?

with the Goose next to him and Ray behind him, Adams was in the middle of a defense where each man had to be marked by the offense.

here in DC, Wilkinson has been playing next to undersized and somewhat limited players or with Bubblebutt, whose play never approximated what it had in San Francisco.

If Wilkinson was on the Baltimore defense and played the way he did here in 2001 he would have been in the Pro Bowl in the AFC.

You look at Adams' numbers in terms of tackles, quarterback sacks and hurries and you can see that he was a 'system player', ie Lewis' system allowed him to concentrate on what he did best and didn't ask him to take on too much responsibility to rush the passer or provide leadership.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

Originally posted by bulldog

You look at Adams' numbers in terms of tackles, quarterback sacks and hurries and you can see that he was a 'system player', ie Lewis' system allowed him to concentrate on what he did best and didn't ask him to take on too much responsibility to rush the passer or provide leadership.

Your post sounds like a veiled criticism -- unless I'm misreading it. So what if Adams did better in Lewis's system? That's good. He would be playing in Lewis's system here.

[Art]

I'm not going to boost Adams as a player or tear him down as one. I'm just going to continue to focus on a guy that wants what he wants in order to play, and if he doesn't get it, does he seem like the type to shrug it off and work hard, or does he seem like the type to get a little sloppy because of it.

That's my sole concern. I don't think Adams is worth what some do. I don't think he's a vet minimum guy either. Atlanta here is suggesting that we simply cut Smith (and Shade, though that would do little for us) and sign Adams, which is fine, but still leaves us with a substantial need and more dead money next year than we want to budget.

The moves don't make sense. If you can work Adams in, that's fine. But, the plan has clearly become to get Smith at least one more year, if not two, and limit the dead money he'll cost us down the road. If that wasn't the case, we'd have reworked him and lengthened him out to assure a large dead cap hit in a couple of years. As it is, we're eating into that every year he plays for us and that's the plan we need to maintain.

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

Originally posted by Art

I'm just going to continue to focus on a guy that wants what he wants in order to play, and if he doesn't get it, does he seem like the type to shrug it off and work hard, or does he seem like the type to get a little sloppy because of it.

A lot of people (including journalists) have posted to the effect, "Sam Adams will go to whatever team pays him the most, even if it's one dime more." But in the WP article, Adams clearly states he intends to sign with a contender. So much for the argument about whether he cares about winning.

As for making as much money as he can, I don't understand the criticism. Who wouldn't do that? The total volume of dollars doesn't matter -- why wouldn't you try to make $4 million dollars if you could, instead of just jumping at the first $2 million offer? It's a silly criticism to say that he could live on $2 million. Fact is, it's more fun to live on $4 million, whatever you do with the money. (Even ex-presidents hold out for high speaking fees, even when they give away the majority of the money to charity.)

If Adams hadn't just put together back-to-back Pro Bowl seasons playing for the same coodinator he'd have with the Skins, I'd understand the skittishness. But as much as you can predict the success of any free agent changing teams, this seems like a safe projection of success. How often do you have the opportunity to pick up a Pro Bowl free agent and have him work for the same coordinator who made him a success?

[bulldog]

supposedly Drew Bledsoe said the same thing after refusing to go to Cincinnati and then okayed a trade ( for the right money) to 2-14 Buffalo

so much for the 'go to a contender' argument.

unless Drew really believes the Bills were one veteran player and a few draft picks from turning 2-14 into 14-2? :laugh:

[Atlanta Skins Fan]

Originally posted by bulldog

supposedly Drew Bledsoe said the same thing after refusing to go to Cincinnati and then okayed a trade ( for the right money) to 2-14 Buffalo

so much for the 'go to a contender' argument.

unless Drew really believes the Bills were one veteran player and a few draft picks from turning 2-14 into 14-2? :laugh:

Well, that's misleading. Very few teams expressed interest in Bledsoe, so he didn't have a lot of choice. And it's a reasonable argument that Bledsoe makes Buffalo a borderline contender by himself. As for Buffalo vs. Cinncinati, Buffalo has a stronger football tradition, organization and fan base.

[GURU]

Atlanta, I'm sure that you are misreading a lot of stuff that's been flying around.

Very few teams expressed interest in Bledsoe? Are you kidding? A lot of teams were interested in the guy. But most of them weren't willing to take on his contract.

While Sam Adams himself said that Marvin Lewis has been in contact with him peridically, that's hardly the same as saying Lewis has been working the phones all off-season. Most earlier reports suggested that Lewis and other previous coaches had some problems with Adams. Nothing Adams said to the Post changes my mind about that, either.

And yes, Adams said he was interested in playing for a contender, but he also qualified that by saying he would rather sit out the season than play for less than what he thinks he's worth. That's hardly the sentiment of a player with a burning desire to compete.

As for anyone wanting to make as much money as possible, well, don't presume to speak for me. Quality of the work environment is more important to me than the bottom line. I would most definately consider taking less money to work at a place or a job that offers a more fullfilling atmosphere. Just look at Darrell Green. I'm sure he could have gotten more money than the Skins have paid him over the years. Just this season, Olin Kreutz took less money to stay with the Bears rather than go to Miami for more.

So yeah, I feel comfortable criticizing Adams for his attitude.