zoony Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 Originally posted by Art Here is a perfect example. When one can not tell the difference between a Redskin fan and the fan of another team with respect to talking about the Redskins, the Redskin fan is not doing his job well. Or, put differently, is not actually a fan of the team, protestations otherwise notwithstanding. a perfect example of a lot of things, Art... not only fandom. But I won't go there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuriousOne2K Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 Originally posted by zoony sounds like being a fan is work for you. actual WORK must then be pure hell, huh? must be hard being so naive.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLongshot Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 As fans, we too, have a context that defines our speech. We're fans. We root for the team. That's our role. And, too few here seem to understand it. As fans of the team, we have the right to critisize the stewardship of our team. As fans, we want the best team we can get. When we have had years of bad football, we have the right to vent our feelings about it. Course, time will tell if this is the best move or not, but I damn well have the right to express my opinion. Jason Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCS Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 Originally posted by FuriousOne2K Destino and Nneece....i'm glad to see some realistic people on this board. the Gibbs nut hugging is almost sickening. have faith? how when we made no improvements. This draft had alot of potential and we threw it away. Now isn't just interesting how when there is agreement with a certain point of view, ( in this case highly negative), that some declare themselves realists? Destino, this is not singling you out, but this has been said by several posters today in some shape, form or another. Just using it as kind of a reference. Originally posted by Destino I disagree (shocker). It's our right to disagree with the FO and demand the problems be fixed. If they don't fix them simply don't purchase any of their over priced crap until they do. You can cheer your heart out while still sending a "I'm not happy" message to the owner that way. However you are right that we should cheer for the success of every move the FO makes. Their success means we have a winning team which makes fans happy. And who doesn't want to be happy? See, now here's the real sticker here. Who are we, besides fans, to decied what problems there are to be fixed? What makes us more capable than the fellows who are doing the job at the time? It's one thing to be pissed about ticket prices, parking, booze prices, lines in the bathrooms and how much those cool shot glasses are in the stadium store and do something about them. It's an entirely different thing to sit here and believe we can actually decide what the problems are with the organization, the team, and how they are coached and run. Because frankly I don't see one individual around here, ( unless you're holding out on us), that's even remotley qualified to do so. Oh we can ***** an moan about it all we want, ( and we will), but that doesn't mean they have to or should listen to us about things like that. Unless of course you're the Cardinals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 n/m Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nneece Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 Originally posted by Cartoons82 I like what Washington did. They got the cornerback they needed and a possible quarterback, 'cuz face it, with this offense, they're not gonna contend this year and one year should be enough time for Campbell to start. Every draft has at least 2 stud receivers, they can get one next year. Really, what draft picks will we use next year to pick up a stud receiver? Perhaps we can trade a few picks from the '07 draft. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuriousOne2K Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 Originally posted by PortisFan101 To FuriousOne2k: Honestly, you are not a true redskins fan if you don't support your team... You call them "nut huggers" because they defended their team's head coach? I would like to give a hearty ****-you, to you sir. So you all know: :dallasuck :eaglesuck :gaintsuck GOOO SKINS! :point2sky You, my friend, are better off at a Dallas Cowboy message board. i'm just getting tired of the losing. i guess you all are used to it so it's not a problem. i support the team but i don't support every decision and make it seem like it's the best in the world. thats just being a sheep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarhog Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 Originally posted by TheLongshot As fans of the team, we have the right to critisize the stewardship of our team. As fans, we want the best team we can get. When we have had years of bad football, we have the right to vent our feelings about it. Course, time will tell if this is the best move or not, but I damn well have the right to express my opinion. Jason As does anyone who chooses to mock it. Now whether guys have the right to show utter disrespect for the franchise the owners and staff here love ON THIS SITE? Hmmm. That may be another question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 Originally posted by Art Califan, The right to freedom of speech does not extend to various roles in your life. You do not have the right to free speech in telling your boss to **** off. That will get you terminated. Within the context of your role as an employee, you lose many of your rights outside that role. A football team is made up of many components. From the owner, to execs, to personnel people, to coaches, to players, to, you and I, fans. There are expectations placed on each of these groups of people that, sadly, too many people here are neglecting to understand. When Lavar Arrington cries about things as he did a couple of weeks ago, he was largely panned by fans -- supported by a small group -- for expressing those views. Why? He has the right to free speech, but, within the context of a player on a football team, he is expected to speak in different ways. He is expected to keep dirty laundry internal. Not violate the code. Whatever. As fans, we too, have a context that defines our speech. We're fans. We root for the team. That's our role. And, too few here seem to understand it. Art, we're talking whether or not we as fans have a right to be critical of the FO moves of the team we root for...and the short answer is, yes, we do. "Right" means we can, not that we must...whether or not we exercise that right--and how we exercise it--is up to us individually. You may not fall into that category. In fact, I haven't seen you be a total dip, so even where you have disagreement I don't get the feeling you are a moron. That's good.The point you are missing though is simple. When one can not tell a Redskin fan apart from a fan of any other team when it comes to talking about the Redskins, that Redskin fan is not functioning well in his role. The moment we receive monetary conpensation for being fans of any team, will be the day I start feeling there should be a "code of fan conduct" when it comes to exercising our right to expressing our views...there can be "good" fans and "bad" fans, "good" ways to express opinions and "bad" ways to do so...but those are value judgements. And value judgements play no part in the realm of "rights"... As I said in my original post...as long as it's not disrespectful or personal, we as fans have every right to critique the personnel moves of our favorite team. And the ironic part is, even if it IS disrespectful and personal, we STILL have that right. It doesn't have the potential to cause bodily harm or injury, nor does it spread false information as factual in attempts to slander a person's reputation. It may be irritating to listen to or read...but it's still a right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 Originally posted by Tarhog As does anyone who chooses to mock it. Now whether guys have the right to show utter disrespect for the franchise the owners and staff here love ON THIS SITE? Hmmm. That may be another question. DING DING DING DING DING!!!! WE HAVE A WINNER!!! Mods, tell him what he's won!! errr... wait a minute. you are a mod. just write yourself a check. For a lot. You deserve it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 Originally posted by nneece I disagree. It is your right and duty as a fan to call BS whenever your FO and organization makes bad decisions that affect the future of the franchise. As a fan, you want to see your team move in the right direction and win more. When the FO makes questionable personel decisions it jepordizes this. Clearly the moves today have caused a number of fans to question what is going on. Perhaps this move (specifically the Campbell move) will work out in the future, but many feel that we have more pressing needs and we don't have to give up so much to draft a player for a position that is not an immediate need. This is the crux of the issue. The problem with your premise, nnece, is in the suggestion that you are a qualified person when it come to assessing when the front office makes questionable personnel decisions. You aren't. I'm not. You do not know the factors that go into grading players. You do not know what is there on tape that worries coaches. While it is absolutely true not every move will work out brilliantly, we, as fans, must have the underlying, common, shared view that those running the organization have a better concept as to the needs of the organization than any individual or collective fan on the outside looking in. Your position, and the position of idiots who call themselves fans everywhere, is to suggest you know best. You don't. I don't. We don't. Those who run the organization do. These decisions aren't made throwing darts up on a wall. They aren't made by watching a Bowl game two years ago and deciding a player is someone you must have. They are made by painstaking hours of evaluation and understanding on a level we can't even begin to comprehend of every player on our team and throughout the league. That we must know those who run our team know more about our team than we do has to guide all of our actions as fans. That doesn't mean we believe they are always right. It doesn't mean we won't be correct -- even often correct -- when a move is made that we view is a bad one and it turns out to be a bad one. All it means is too many of you presume you know more than those who do know more. And, there is where you fail as fans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarhog Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 And before someone gets their panties in a wad, thats not 'a threat' - this is a pretty reasonable discussion. But some of the other nonsense thats been spewed today, well, honestly, if it wasn't coming from purported Skins 'fans', we'd probably call it trolling. Thats my point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Om Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 Originally posted by nneece I disagree. It is your right and duty as a fan to call BS whenever your FO and organization makes bad decisions that affect the future of the franchise. As a fan, you want to see your team move in the right direction and win more. When the FO makes questionable personel decisions it jepordizes this. Clearly the moves today have caused a number of fans to question what is going on. Perhaps this move (specifically the Campbell move) will work out in the future, but many feel that we have more pressing needs and we don't have to give up so much to draft a player for a position that is not an immediate need. This is the crux of the issue. Semi-right. Yes, fans have a right to call BS when they THINK the team screws up. Though it would be helpful to the rest of us if, if when they do so, they at least try to back it up with something more tangible than, "we suck!" Which they rarely do. Where I have a problem is when they cannot or will not see the distinction between their THINKING the team screwed, and team actually, in the real world, screwing up. My observation, over the 5 years I've been here, is that a great majority of the fans who's main reason for existence on a message board seems to be to say, in essence, "we suck!" no matter WHAT happens, really and truly seem to think they have enough of a grasp of what's going on in a real NFL front office to have a meaningful thing to say about that. I am rarely boggled. But when I am, it's often this that causes it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 Originally posted by TheLongshot As fans of the team, we have the right to critisize the stewardship of our team. As fans, we want the best team we can get. When we have had years of bad football, we have the right to vent our feelings about it. Course, time will tell if this is the best move or not, but I damn well have the right to express my opinion. Jason Where did I say you didn't have a right to express your opinion as a fan? Read over what was said more closely and then respond. Did I not say in my premise that you can express thoughtful opposition in a way that is meaningful? How'd you miss that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 Originally posted by FuriousOne2K must be hard being so naive.... at least have a point. why would it be hard to be naive? Most naive people I know find it fairly easy. as a matter of fact, it takes more work NOT to be naive, wouldn't you say? By all means... keep posting Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Califan007 The Constipated Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 Originally posted by Art Where did I say you didn't have a right to express your opinion as a fan? Read over what was said more closely and then respond. Did I not say in my premise that you can express thoughtful opposition in a way that is meaningful? How'd you miss that? Actually, Art, you DID say that in your first response to me...lol To quote: Actually, this is an interesting concept. It really isn't your right, as fans, to be critical of the front office. Now, I'm the "Literal" type...so when you say something like that, it gets taken literally by many like myself... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nneece Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 Originally posted by FuriousOne2K Destino and Nneece....i'm glad to see some realistic people on this board. the Gibbs nut hugging is almost sickening. have faith? how when we made no improvements. This draft had alot of potential and we threw it away. I had great hope when Gibbs returned to the franchise. Like Destino, I still have hope. I held my breath when the season played out last year. But the moves this offseason really have me questioning what is going on. The 2 primary non-player areas which need to be addressed are player personel (ie- a true GM) and offensive play calling. Both of these are in direct conflict with each other. As Gibbs has to spend more time on player personel issues, he has less time to spend worrying about the offense. I don't question Gibbs coaching or even offensive abilities, but the first time around he had 2 good GM's to back him up. Now he is older and the stacks, drama, etc. are much higher... The bottom line is I want to see the Redskins improve and be competitive. I don't think you can clearly discern this from the moves that have been made. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nneece Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 Originally posted by nneece I had great hope when Gibbs returned to the franchise. Like Destino, I still have hope. I held my breath when the season played out last year. But the moves this offseason really have me questioning what is going on. The 2 primary non-player areas which need to be addressed are player personel (ie- a true GM) and offensive play calling. Both of these are in direct conflict with each other. As Gibbs has to spend more time on player personel issues, he has less time to spend worrying about the offense. I don't question Gibbs coaching or even offensive abilities, but the first time around he had 2 good GM's to back him up. Now he is older and the stacks, drama, etc. are much higher... The bottom line is I want to see the Redskins improve and be competitive. I don't think you can clearly discern this from the moves that have been made. Sorry, typo. Make that 'stakes' instead of 'stacks' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CHUBAKAH Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 :munchout: I just love me some popcorn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 Originally posted by Califan007 Actually, Art, you DID say that in your first response to me...lol To quote: Now, I'm the "Literal" type...so when you say something like that, it gets taken literally by many like myself... Actually, Califan, when you figure out the difference between the right to state an opinion and the right to be critical. So, as you literally understand something, attempt to actually understand something. And, never, ever again quote ONE line from a post of mine at the exclusion of another, like, oh, THIS one in my first post to you: You may not always individually appreciate each or every move the front office makes. You may have reasons to question it. You may even thoughtfully say what those reasons are. You, Califan, may even be a person who can thoughtfully express those opposition views. Since you are literal and all, wouldn't it be beneficial to actually read for context, or, did you just take a job for the Washington Post and decide you can pretend context or conversation you don't happen to want to address don't count? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FuriousOne2K Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 Originally posted by zoony at least have a point. why would it be hard to be naive? Most naive people I know find it fairly easy. as a matter of fact, it takes more work NOT to be naive, wouldn't you say? By all means... keep posting i really don't care. you are still naive. keep hanging.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PCS Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 I already agreed with Art and Om, ( I need to work on my delivery). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tarhog Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 Originally posted by nneece I had great hope when Gibbs returned to the franchise. Like Destino, I still have hope. I held my breath when the season played out last year. But the moves this offseason really have me questioning what is going on. The 2 primary non-player areas which need to be addressed are player personel (ie- a true GM) and offensive play calling. Both of these are in direct conflict with each other. As Gibbs has to spend more time on player personel issues, he has less time to spend worrying about the offense. I don't question Gibbs coaching or even offensive abilities, but the first time around he had 2 good GM's to back him up. Now he is older and the stacks, drama, etc. are much higher... The bottom line is I want to see the Redskins improve and be competitive. I don't think you can clearly discern this from the moves that have been made. Have you considered though that it may not necessarily be 'the moves' thats going to get us over the hump to be a perenially competitive team again? Lets face it, this team has been nothing but 'moves' the past decade. Thats, ironically, been one of the biggest factors in why we haven't been able to build something other than mediocrity, the constant changes. We've been the 'king of the move'. And it hasn't worked. Perhaps less is more. Fewer new players. Develop what you have. I know some are going to chime in and say 'what about Smoot?', 'what about Pierce?', etc....but losses, in addition to Coles were somewhat beyond our control (if you accept the financial constraints, say, of not choosing to pay Smoot more than Springs, Pierce more than Washington, etc). Are you so certain that 'moves' = improvement? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Om Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 Originally posted by nneece Sorry, typo. Make that 'stakes' instead of 'stacks' Upper right corner of each post, brother. Second little red button from the right. * See? It works ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted April 24, 2005 Share Posted April 24, 2005 Originally posted by FuriousOne2K i really don't care. you are still naive. good one. you're still a whiner. Point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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