OT - Voter fraud in Florida? Never!

[MarkPSkins]

Maybe saying that it is the "duty" of immigrants to speak English is a little strong. Perhaps we should say, it is in the best interest of immigrants to speak english might be closer to the mark. For all the reasons above would make it in the best interest to speak english for anyone, also read english, write english. Granted you have the right not to speak english, but it should also be a given that if you choose not to speak english, or learn to read and write, that things may be a tad difficult for you to; one become a citizen; and two order a freakin big mac at McDonalds or read a ballot. It is not the fault of the government that people who choose not to conform to our ways make mistakes on ballots or can't get a job or fill out forms at the welfare office.

If I choose to go to Germany or France and become a citizen of their country, first, I'm not even sure it's possible, second, while I may be able to get by not speaking their language, it sure would make it a whole lot easier if I did. The reason that most of these Europeans do speak English is not because they want to be courteous to Americans, it because they want our money. The more they can communicate with the guy holding all the money, the more money they can get out of them. Also, since many Europeans and other large business countries deal internationally and travel internationally much more so than Americans, it is much easier to learn one common language (english) where they can get by almost everywhere, than try to learn a whole bunch of different languages.

Why do people use the constitution as a mask of common courtesy. I know have the right to speak whatever language I choose, but I should have the courtesy to attempt to communicate without expecting a hand out or interpretation because I don't?

If I own a business or am working at a business that caters to Americans who speak english predominantly, I should have to speak english, not because the Constitution says otherwise, because I want to make money, or get paid. Also, if I am an employer, I should be able to say I'm not going to hire you until you can speak english without and penalty of discrimination.

Anyway, my point is, while it's your right to not speak English according to the Constitution, it should also be assumed that if you choose to not speak English that you may not be able to function as a true citizen. I have the right to not have to testify against myself in a court of law, however, if it's gonna make my life easier (ie: not going to jail) I sure as heck fire will testify.

[The Evil Genius]

Here is some more to stir up the **** :cool:

Florida's flawed "voter-cleansing" program

Secretary of State Katherine Harris hired a firm to vet the rolls for felons, but that may have wrongly kept thousands, particularly blacks, from casting ballots.

- - - - - - - - - - - -

By Gregory Palast

Dec. 4, 2000 | If Vice President Al Gore is wondering where his Florida votes went, rather than sift through a pile of chad, he might want to look at a "scrub list" of 173,000 names targeted to be knocked off the Florida voter registry by a division of the office of Florida Secretary of State Katherine Harris. A close examination suggests thousands of voters may have lost their right to vote based on a flaw-ridden list that included purported "felons" provided by a private firm with tight Republican ties.

Early in the year, the company, ChoicePoint, gave Florida officials a list with the names of 8,000 ex-felons to "scrub" from their list of voters. But it turns out none on the list were guilty of felonies, only misdemeanors. The company acknowledged the error, and blamed it on the original source of the list -- the state of Texas.

Florida officials moved to put those falsely accused by Texas back on voter rolls before the election. Nevertheless, the large number of errors uncovered in individual counties suggests that thousands of eligible voters may have been turned away at the polls.

Florida is the only state that pays a private company that promises to "cleanse" voter rolls.The state signed in 1998 a $4 million contract with DBT Online, since merged into ChoicePoint, of Atlanta. The creation of the scrub list, called the central voter file, was mandated by a 1998 state voter fraud law, which followed a tumultuous year that saw Miami's mayor removed after voter fraud in the election, with dead people discovered to have cast ballots. The voter fraud law required all 67 counties to purge voter registries of duplicate registrations, deceased voters and felons, many of whom, but not all, are barred from voting in Florida.

In the process, however, the list invariably targets a minority population in Florida, where 31 percent of all black men cannot vote because of a ban on felons. In compiling a list by looking at felons from other states, Florida could, in the process, single out citizens who committed felons in other states but, after serving their time or successfully petitioning the courts, had their voting rights returned to them. According to Florida law, felons can vote once their voting rights have been reinstated.

And if this unfairly singled out minorities, it unfairly handicapped Gore: In Florida, 93 percent of African-Americans voted for the vice president.

In the 10 counties contacted by Salon, use of the central voter file seemed to vary wildly. Some found the list too unreliable and didn't use it at all. But most counties appear to have used the file as a resource to purge names from their voter rolls, with some counties making little -- or no -- effort at all to alert the "purged" voters. Counties that did their best to vet the file discovered a high level of errors, with as many as 15 percent of names incorrectly identified as felons.

News coverage has focused on some maverick Florida counties that decided not to use the central voter file, essentially breaking the law and possibly letting some ineligible felons vote. On Friday, the Miami Herald reported that after researching voter records in 12 Florida counties -- but primarily in Palm Beach and Duval counties, which didn't use the file -- it found that more than 445 felons had apparently cast ballots in the presidential election.

But Palm Beach and Duval weren't the only counties to dump the list after questioning its accuracy. Madison County's elections supervisor, Linda Howell, had a peculiarly personal reason for distrusting the central voter file: She had received a letter saying that since she had committed a felony, she would not be allowed to vote.

Howell, who said she has never committed a felony, said the letter she received in March shook her faith in the process. "It really is a mess," she said.

I was very upset," Howell said. "I know I'm not a felon." Though the mistake did get corrected and law enforcement officials were quite apologetic, Howell decided not to use the state list anymore because its "information is so flawed." She's unsure of the number of warning letters that were sent out to county residents when she first received the list in 1999, but she recalls that there were many problems. "One day we would send a letter to have someone taken off the rolls, and the next day, we would send one to put them back on again," Howell said. "It makes you look like you must be a dummy."

Dixie and Washington counties also refused to use the scrub lists. Starlet Cannon, Dixie's deputy assistant supervisor of elections, said, "I'm scared to work with it because of lot of the information they have on there is not accurate." Carol Griffin, supervisor of elections for Washington, said, "It hasn't been accurate in the past, so we had no reason to suspect it was accurate this year."

But if some counties refused to use the list altogether, others seemed to embrace it all too enthusiastically. Etta Rosado, spokeswoman for the Volusia County Department of Elections, said the county essentially accepted the file at face value, did nothing to confirm the accuracy of it and doesn't inform citizens ahead of time that they have been dropped from the voter rolls.

"When we get the con felon list, we automatically start going through our rolls on the computer. If there's a name that says John Smith was convicted of a felony, then we enter a notation on our computer that says convicted felon -- we mark an "f" for felon -- and the date that we received it," Rosado said. "They're still on our computer, but they're on purge status," meaning they have been marked ineligible to vote.

"I don't think that it's up to us to tell them they're a convicted felon," Rosado said. "If he's on our rolls, we make a notation on there. If they show up at a polling place, we'll say, 'Wait a minute, you're a convicted felon, you can't vote. Nine out of 10 times when we repeat that to the person, they say 'Thank you' and walk away. They don't put up arguments." Rosado doesn't know how many people in Volusia were dropped from the list as a result of being identified as felons.

Hillsborough County's elections supervisor, Pam Iorio, tried to make sure that that the bugs in the system didn't keep anyone from voting. All 3,258 county residents who were identified as possible felons on the central voter file sent by the state in June were sent a certified letter informing them that their voting rights were in jeopardy. Of that number, 551 appealed their status, and 245 of those appeals were successful. Some had been convicted of a misdemeanor and not a felony, others were felons who had had their rights restored and others were simply cases of mistaken identity.

An additional 279 were not close matches with names on the county's own voter rolls and were not notified. Of the 3,258 names on the original list, therefore, the county concluded that more than 15 percent were in error. If that ratio held statewide, no fewer than 7,000 voters were incorrectly targeted for removal from voting rosters.

Iorio says local officials did not get adequate preparation for purging felons from their rolls. "We're not used to dealing with issues of criminal justice or ascertaining who has a felony conviction," she said. Though the central voter file was supposed to facilitate the process, it was often more troublesome than the monthly circuit court lists that she had previously used to clear her rolls of duplicate registrations, the deceased and convicted felons. "The database from the state level is not always accurate," Iorio said. As a consequence, her county did its best to notify citizens who were on the list about their felony status. "We sent those individuals a certified letter, we put an ad in a local newspaper and we held a public hearing. For those who didn't respond to that, we sent out another letter by regular mail," Iorio said. "That process lasted several months."

We did run some number stats and the number of blacks [on the list] was higher than expected for our population," says Chuck Smith, a statistician for the county. Iorio acknowledged that African-Americans made up 54 percent of the people on the original felons list, though they constitute only 11.6 percent of Hillsborough's voting population.

Smith added that the DBT computer program automatically transformed various forms of a single name. In one case, a voter named "Christine" was identified as a felon based on the conviction of a "Christopher" with the same last name. Smith says ChoicePoint would not respond to queries about its proprietary methods. Nor would the company provide additional verification data to back its fingering certain individuals in the registry purge. One supposed felon on the ChoicePoint list is a local judge.

While there was much about the lists that bothered Iorio, she felt she didn't have a choice but to use them. And she's right. Section 98.0975 of the Florida Constitution states:

"Upon receiving the list from the division, the supervisor must attempt to verify the information provided. If the supervisor does not determine that the information provided by the division is incorrect, the supervisor must remove from the registration books by the next subsequent election the name of any person who is deceased, convicted of a felony or adjudicated mentally incapacitated with respect to voting."

But the counties have interpreted that law in different ways. Leon County used the central voter file sent in January 2000 to clean up its voter rolls, but set aside the one it received in July. According to Thomas James, the information systems officer in the county election office, the list came too late for the information to be processed.

According to Leon election supervisor Ion Sancho, "there have been some problems" with the file. Using the information received in January, Sancho sent 200 letters to county voters, by regular mail, telling them they had been identified by the state as having committed a felony and would not be allowed to vote. They were given 30 days to respond if there was an error. "They had the burden of proof," he says. He says 20 people proved that they did not belong on the list, and a handful of angry phone calls followed on Election Day. "Some people threatened to sue us," he said, "but we haven't had any lawyers calling yet."

In Orange County, officials also sent letters to those identified as felons by the state, but they appear to have taken little care in their handling of the list. "I have no idea," said June Condrun, Orange's deputy supervisor of elections, when asked how many letters were sent out to voters. After a bit more thought, Condrun responded that "several hundred" of the letters were sent, but said she doesn't know how many people complained. Those who did call, she said, were given the phone number of the Florida Department of Law Enforcement so that they could appeal directly to it.

Many Orange County voters never got the chance to appeal in any form. Condrun noted that about one-third of the letters, which the county sent out by regular mail, were returned to the office marked undeliverable. She attributed the high rate of incorrect addresses to the age of the information sent by DBT, some of which was close to 20 years old, she said.

Miami-Dade County officials may have had similar trouble. Milton Collins, assistant supervisor of elections, said he isn't comfortable estimating how many accused felons were identified by the central voter file in his county. He said he knows that about 6,000 were notified, by regular mail, about an early list in 1999. Exactly how many were purged from the list? "I honestly couldn't tell you," he said. According to Collins, the most recent list he received from the state was one sent in January 2000, and the county applied a "two-pass system": If the information on the state list seemed accurate enough when comparing names with those on county voter lists, people were classified as felons and were then sent warning letters. Those who seemed to have only a partial match with the state data were granted "temporary inactive status." Both groups of people were given 90 days to respond or have their names struck from the rolls.

But Collins said the county has no figures for how many voters were able to successfully appeal their designation as felons.

ChoicePoint spokesman Martin Fagan concedes his company's error in passing on the bogus list from Texas. ("I guess that's a little bit embarrassing in light of the election," he says.) He defends the company's overall performance, however, dismissing the errors in 8,000 names as "a minor glitch -- less than one-tenth of 1 percent of the electorate" (though the total equals 15 times Gov. George W. Bush's claimed lead over Gore). But he added that ChoicePoint is responsible only for turning over its raw list, which is then up to Florida officials to test and correct.

Last year, DBT Online, with which ChoicePoint would soon merge, received the unprecedented contract from the state of Florida to "cleanse" registration lists of ineligible voters -- using information gathering and matching criteria it has refused to disclose, even to local election officials in Florida.

Atlanta's ChoicePoint, a highflying dot-com specializing in sales of personal information gleaned from its database of 4 billion public and not-so-public records, has come under fire for misuse of private data from government computers. In January, the state of Pennsylvania terminated a contract with ChoicePoint after discovering the firm had sold citizens' personal profiles to unauthorized individuals.

Fagan says many errors could have been eliminated by matching the Social Security numbers of ex-felons on DBT lists to the Social Security numbers on voter registries. However, Florida's counties have Social Security numbers on only a fraction of their voter records. So with those two problems -- Social Security numbers missing in both the DBT's records and the counties' records -- that fail-safe check simply did not exist.

In its defense, the company proudly points to an award it received from Voter Integrity Inc. on April 1 for "innovative excellence [in] cleansing" Florida voter rolls. The conservative, nonprofit advocacy organization has campaigned in parallel with the Republican Party against the 1993 motor voter law that resulted in a nationwide increase in voter registration of 7 million, much of it among minority voters. DBT Online partnered with Voter Integrity Inc. three days later, setting up a program to let small counties "scrub" their voting lists, too.

Florida is the only state in the nation to contract the first stage of removal of voting rights to a private company. And ChoicePoint has big plans. "Given the outcome of our work in Florida," says Fagan, "and with a new president in place, we think our services will expand across the country."

Especially if that president is named "Bush." ChoicePoint's board and executive roster are packed with Republican stars, including billionaire Ken Langone, a company director who was chairman of the fund-raising committee for New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani's aborted run against Hillary Rodham Clinton. Langone is joined at ChoicePoint by another Giuliani associate, former New York Police Commissioner Howard Safir. And Republican power lobbyist and former congressman Vin Weber lobbies for ChoicePoint in Washington. Just before his death in 1998, Rick Rozar, president of a Choicepoint company, CDB Infotek, donated $100,000 to the Republican Party.

[The Evil Genius]

Mark P,

I do think that what you are saying has a lot of merit.

But, this is my only caveat.

While its nice to think that its in the best interest of joe public to speak english - not providing for non-english proficient CITIZENS is just plain wrong.

If CITIZEN John P moves from a non-english speaking country and does not have the ability to understand the majority of what is printed or said at a county/city/whatever meeting or whats on a ballot - then there needs to be something done.

If we want to have a true representative republic - then the needs of the masses (and yes non proficient english Citizens in the US is a mass) need to be met also.

[MarkPSkins]

I have a questions. How exactly does John P. Nonenglishspeaker get to be a citizen and obtain the right to vote. Isn't there a test that has questions about America that one would have to read about in english? I understand being born on American soil, but 12 years in an American School system should have taught some english.

Are these tests available in different languages, and if so the answers should still have to do with the USA and therefore some english had to be involved with getting the answers?

What's the deal?

[JimboDaMan]

Ahem.

I am continually amused by the claims that all media errors are examples of leftward bias. Lest we forget, the media proclaimed Bush the winner in a declaration so rock solid that Gore actually delivered a concession. But that, of course, was an understandable accident while they were being 'fair, factual and objective' - except that the guy who made the call was a Bush relative.

Funny you should mention the overvotes. I don't have the numbers and at this point I won't bother to get them. But as I recall, the project to actually review all disputed ballots declared Bush a fairly solid leader after counting the undervotes. When the overvotes were completed and the final tally in, the results were inconclusive. Either candidate actually won the vote depending on what rules you used for counting votes, and whether the recount was applied to all of Florida or just the disputed counties. Ironically, Bush fared better under the rules Gore pushed, and Gore fared better under Bush's ballot standards.

You have an excellent memory of those circumstances which impeded Bush's cause. Therefore you should also recall the criminal activity in Seminole County, where the Republican machinery allowed the local party unsupervised access to absentee ballot applications for two weeks. The Dems had wisely pre-printed the applicant's voter ID on the ballot applications, but Repubs neglected to do so. No one knows whether any likely Democratic applications (identifiable by the pre-printed ID) made it into the trash while nobody was watching. But all involved admit the Republican operatives illegally wrote the IDs on thousands of applications, thus rendering them invalid but ultimately counting as valid votes, likely for Bush. Your original post mentioned 'fraud' but you neglected to cite this clear example...

The point is, there was plenty of questionable activity from supporters and supposed neutral parties. The continual shabby behavior from the declared victors - 'get over it', 'he tried to STEAL the election', blah blah can only be described as transparently defensive.

[Golgo-13]

How on earth can a country function properly if the people can't communicate with each other? I believe that to live here and to become a citizen you should at least be able to get by in the English language. It's only fair. I lived in Germany and Austria and learned to speak German. I lived in Denmark and learned to speak Danish. My father is a German immigrant and his English is flawless, oh but I suppose it's easier for him because he's not a "minority"....whatever!! We are letting people get by with far too much in the name of "diversity." Diversity is fine, but when I do business with you I want you to be able to understand what I'm saying for crying out loud.

[Art]

Jimbo,

There was no voter fraud from officials who wrote in social security numbers on ballots they had sent out incorrectly. Officials who were essentially taking from people their right to vote by not having properly mailed out the ballot, as per state law, attempted to correct the error they made by matching names with numbers and registering the votes accordingly.

Unlike the Democrat caravans of homeless men given a pack of smokes for a Gore vote, or the illegal nature of having numerous convicted felons voting for Gore through absentee ballots supplied by operatives of the Democratic party, the issue you cite was a mistake by the state and the election board of the precinct attempted to rectify it.

While I'm sure your imagination is running wild with you with regard to what people may have done alone without you watching, I've got it much better. I don't need wild imagery to create a wrong. I have the facts of the matter. The media and the left wing liberal bias it displays far too often announced Florida and essentially the Presidency to Al Gore. That error was made while the state of Florida was still on the clock and turned the tide for countless thousands of voters who felt they need no longer participate in an election that was finished.

Again, Michigan was called for Gore despite the fact that the actual vote count to that point had Bush ahead. Ohio, a Bush victory, was kept as too close to call despite the fact that Bush was far ahead in the actual count all night and well ahead in the VNS projections. The call for Florida was a terrible mistake for the media. Later in the night, in the wee hours, they made another call. And as truth is an absolute defense, we can not now say they were wrong about the wee hours call when, in fact, that was the correct call.

I know the 2000 election is a terrible embarrassment for the democratic party, but rather than a "I know you are but what am I" stance, you probably should just say, "Yep, and now we are moving on."

[Art]

EG,

As is the case with the more sensitive among us, you take a statements you do not agree with, and make them absolutes, thereby rendering the point made somehow less adequate.

When you write, "Finally, please show me WHERE in the constitution, the Bill or Rights, or any other State Laws and Regulations where it says its my duty to speak english and only english," what you are doing is attempting to take a statement and make it something it wasn't in the hope you can still have a point.

In fact, no one here is saying English is the only language you can speak to live in this country. You can speak any number of languages you wish. One of them just better be English. Now, I'm certain you are a big minority speaker and people listen to you when you talk about them, but, when you say we give our school children 13 years to learn English so we should give non-English speaking natives the same tells me you find adult non-English speaking voters to be just as bright as our children and, really, that might get you beaten if said in a different crowd .

Here, I'll just say I think the average adult eligible to vote in this country tends to be a bit more intelligent and capable of speaking the language than a six year old in elementary school. But, how can I judge you for making such a solid comparison?

Further, no one is talking about literacy tests for anyone. Simply put, the ballot is in English. If you can't read it or understand it, you don't need a test. You also don't need to be catered to. That's all.

[The Evil Genius]

Art,

Actually I think its fair to say that the 2000 election is an embarassment to all of America. And it shows how flawed our system is how our thirst of immediate to the second news is flawed.

To win the state of California - you know the state with the largest # of electoral votes, one only needs to win LA and San Francisco and win about 30-35% of the other votes eleswhere in the state.

How flawed is that?

And no - I am not a big minority speaker. I am a graduate level eduacted, non-party affiliated (even though I did relunctantly register Democrat in California), white male in my late 20's who grew up in a military family in a republican/conservative state (Virginia). I just like to point out hypocracy when I see it.

[MarkPSkins]

To add to what Art said above...Most kids in this country already speak english before they start school right? I mean they aren't starting from scratch right? I'm pretty sure my children had a good enough grasp on English at around 2 years old and quite a good vocabulary three years old. So what's this 13 year crud. We don't need them to be able to publish a paper, just read a freakin ballot for christmas sake.

[The Evil Genius]

Hyprocracy like this...

As is the case with the more sensitive among us, you take a statements you do not agree with, and make them absolutes, thereby rendering the point made somehow less adequate.

and then stating this...

but, when you say we give our school children 13 years to learn English so we should give non-English speaking natives the same tells me you find adult non-English speaking voters to be just as bright as our children

Talk about taking statements and making them absolutes.

Now Art you do know what I was saying right?

That these immigrants are very bright oftentimes and can express it in their native language. The fact that they dont assimilate the English language as fast as you and me may likethem to - doesnt mean that they should be prohibited from participating. What harm does it have to have interpreters at council/city meetings or to have ballots in more than 1 language? I know most likely that it will never happen - but what do we have to fear? That the spanish language will take over English or something? :laugh:

[JimboDaMan]

Art, that is demonstrably untrue.

Those ballot applications are sent by either party as part of its 'get-out-the-vote' efforts. Nobody denied anyone the right to vote, heck, most of those people didn't even ask for the applications. By law, the application must be completed and signed by the applicant ONLY. The Republicans illegally altered the applications and resubmitted them on behalf of voters.

As far as imagination running wild. It was Republicans who accused recount officials of eating chads. It was Republicans whe physically attacked a recount worker as he left a recount area holding a training ballot. It was Republicans - not local precinct guys, but national campaign and legislative staff - in a famous picture trying to beat down the doors and intimidate recount officials. But I'm imagining what people might have done.

Ah, the 'felon vote' issue. The Evil Genius already posted the real story - that many of these 'felons' were in fact not so, and many legitimate votes were denied by this faulty program.

This could go on forever. In fact, it has.

[Kilmer17]

You are correct. The APPLICATION can only be filled out by the voter. The party officials altered the ENVELOPES not the application.

No law was broken.

Shall we look at Missouri, where local Democratic poll officials refused to follow orders from the state Supreme Court to shut down the polls (already opened 1/2 hour past the legal time) and let more voters cast ballots in heavily Democratic district favoring an already deceased Carnihan? Or should we simply start looking at the legalities of electing a dead person. The state constitution states that all candidates must LIVE in the state to be eleigible to hold office. But did the GOP ***** about that and the subsequent appointment of his wife (with no political experience rather than the rightful winner John Ashcroft?

[NavyDave]

Diversity generally is liberal speak for dumbing down.

In either our morals or expectations from citizens to be independent ad responsible.

Yeah, because people who can't speak English -- they're not people, right?

ASF yeah theyarepeople however that does not mean we dont hold them to the standards w have for our own.

I was stationed in Spain and had to learn enough spanish to get by then I was stationed in Sicily and learned Sicilian/Italian to get by and my landlords were old school and werent about o learn english even thou his kids came over to practice his english. In Bosnia samething learn enuff to get by.

So immigrants here should do the same

No more of this touchy feely let people do whatthey want at the taxpayers expense.

And for your information Hispancs vote Democrat the only one who dont blindly vote that way is the Cubans.

Look at California where alot of immigrants run for the border

So you will see alot of members of the gOP not happy with Dubba yas thinking hear ecause justlike the brothers it would be considered to be a sell out to vote GOP and thus I've been a sell out for 20 years.

[fansince62]

without intending to stir the pot too much...there is a hidden assumption here. The Federalist Papers contain the notion that voting was a right predicated upon an electorate that was informed - democracy is more than just the right to pull a lever. it presumes an interested/educated public. the not too far-fetched idea here is that if you can't read English you likely aren't informed well enough to make a decision based upon informed reason. unless, of course, you like your decisions made for you by others - a notion that substantial portions of our political culture are entirely comfortable with!

[JimboDaMan]

Jeez Kilmer. If we're going to get technical about residency requirements, lets look at the legal fiction concocted to make Cheney a resident of Wyoming rather than Texas. You'd think literal-minded conservatives would never violate the Constitution by nominating both president and vice president from the same state. But you'd be wrong.

FWIW, in this day and age its a ridiculous requirement. But we're not supposed to simply ignore those portions of the Constitution we find inconvenient.

[The Evil Genius]

you like your decisions made for you by others

Well we are in a REPRESENTATIVE democracy....so thus, yes, my decisions are made by others. Those that I have either elected via voting or not voting in.

But true powers lie in the Administrative State.

[fansince62]

evil...the sarcasm underlying the comment was that those who do not support language requirements for voting often do so for selfish reasons: among which is the notion that they can manipulate those who cannot inform themsleves. you know...."step on to this bus please. please be sure to check this block. thanks for lining up with us, here are your free cigarettes. etc., etc." small stuff like that........

[Kilmer17]

Well, Cheney was a resident of Wyoming according to the letter of the law. Carnihan was not LIVING in the state of Missouri. I dont see how they are even similar, not to mention alike.

[The Evil Genius]

So was Hilary Clinton in NY.

Doesn't mean that they both aren't carpetbaggers.

[Kilmer17]

Carpetbaggers yes, but not illegals.

[JimboDaMan]

Not that it matters because its a ridiculous requirement. But Cheney was in fact residing in both states, and by most guidelines used to establish these things he would have been judged an official resident of Texas. I think he ran to Wyoming to get an in-state drivers license a couple of days before being named to the ticket.

Let me put it this way. If he did it in reverse to claim Texas residency to avoid Wyoming state taxes it probably wouldn't have held up.

As far as Carnahan, I dunno, maybe it was a different guy named Carnahan they voted for. I find myself unable to get worked up over the injustice imposed on Ashcroft, who couldn't even get elected by running against a dead guy.

[Pete]

I deal with this all day, folks who don’t speak English, and actually get annoyed when I don’t hable. I’ve picked up a little Spanish, and Italian over the years, and I mean very little.

The kids will not learn as they should due to lack of support at home. The parents don’t care to learn, forcing the kids not to speak English. The teachers in our county are all E.S.O.L. (English for speakers of other languages) certified, but not required to be bi-lingual. This slightly adds to the cost of the education of every student. Where it really gets costly, is in the duplication of work to accommodate the non-English speaking population. We even have a Haitian Creole specialist to help the parents fill out the applications to enroll their kids in school, even though we have under 1k out of 60k that speak it. We may have to add a specialists to cover the few hundred Brazilian kids in the district also. There were lower standards for minority kids to get into "gifted" programs up until two or three years ago, yet the percentage of minority kids is very low, due to the language barrier. We have FREE adult ed language classes, yet instead taking the help offered, they expect us to change the system and do everything in both languages. We have gone above and beyond to give these people what they need, not to give up their native tongue, but to get along in the US. We do far more now then in say, 1900. More then 1950….. yup. When people immigrated to this country in the early 1900’s, it is true that they did go to areas that were populated by others from the same place. The difference is that they worked as a community to learn English, knowing it to be a key to prosperity. When people imitate Italians, it’s always "broken English", which is far better then the blank stares I get every day from folks at my parts counter. I have to spend twice as much time trying to figure out what they need, at a loss to production in the shop, and I’m supposed to be understanding of their plight. They personally cost me bonus money every week.

Were pi$sing away money on this that’s sorely needed elsewhere. Our school districts growth rate is projected to be 2k to 2.5k new students a year, which means we need three new schools a year. With new schools, you need a staff. We had to release teachers and support staff the last two years for lack of money in the budget and had to increase class sizes. Jeb wants smaller schools, with smaller class sizes, which would compound the problem even more. He must party with his daughter. State lottery? For every dollar the lottery puts into the education system, that’s one less the government gives. If it was looked on as if there was no lottery, and the government gave us a fair budget, and then subsidized with the lottery money we would be able to keep up with the growth. Now their talking about casinos, and how that money can help our education system. Ya, Right.

Lee county Fl isn’t the only school district that has these money problems, but the money we waste on helping the non English speaking people here would go a long way. That is a fact. It would save the Fed millions, if not billions.

[DaFunky1]

Normally I don't dabble in politics in an open forum so as to help hide my ignorance in general. But I do have a couple of points to make.

1. I am tired of hearing people argue about this and that regarding the Florida election results. Gore sued for a recount of ballots that normally would have been discarded. Bush sued to stop the recount. Honestly I don't blame either... both wanted to win.

2. News reports stated that roughly 8,000 (I believe that to be the correct amount) military absentee ballots were never counted in the state of Florida.

3. We would not be having this discussion if Gore had won his own state or the state of former president Bill Clinton. It is quite obvious, in my estimation, that both states were fed up with Gore and his antics.

As far as voting and citizenship is concerned... I have some simple solutions.

1. If you don't own land or pay federal taxes, you should not be allowed to vote. That will never happen because the Democrats, as well as some more "moderate" Republicans, would not want to lose a good bit of their voter base. It wouldn't be too hard to prove... require a tax return for a second form of identification or the bill the local government sends each year showing taxes owed.

2. If you want to become a citizen of this great and wonderful country, you should be able to read and write the language. I agree with NavyDave and probably millions of others, that we have to stop ****footing around. ENGLISH is the national language. NOT Spanish, NOT French.. but ENGLISH.

I'm not a Democrat. I'm not a Republican either. I am a conservative with a focus on the restrictions our government has within the confines of the constitution. Unfortunately, our government tends to lean more towards a bigger more impersonal government that caters to the few instead of the masses. We are Not a democracy... though we all get to vote with certain restrictions for some... if the U.S.A. were a democracy we would see anarchy because the masses would get what they want. We are a constitutional republic with representation.

I guess I have spewed enough... :soapbox:

Peace

[DIESEL TROLL]

LANGUAGE, BORDERS, CULTURE.......WE MUST PROTECT THESE STRUCTURAL ICONS FOR AMERICA'S BASE OR WE ARE LOST......... :soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox: :soapbox: