NBC News: Huge Cache Of Explosives Vanished From Site In Iraq At Least 18 Months Ago

[Ghost of]

Originally posted by Larry

(Edit: OTOH, if there's an announcement, tomorrow, that Ossama's been captured, how many people are gonna yell "Bush plot!"? OTOOH, if that announcement occurrs, how many people who're now denouncing this blatant attempt to undermine democracy will have no problem with the thought of managing a war with the same motive?)

Uh Larry, what?

So the very real fact that this "story" is old and its re-hatching is politically motivated is the same as a bunch of conspiracy nuts talking about the capture of Osama?

You realize you just spun a hypothetical for which you have no basis to reach a conclusion to condemn the "right" on this board for something they didn't do?

My guess is that the people who have a problem with this story would have a problem with Bush having held Osama's capture back. But on this thread we have one somewhat concrete case and we have a hypothetical in which your mere question is meant to impugn the integrity of fellow board members.

Tell you what, if Osama is 'captured' tomorrow I'd be extremely suspicious. However, I'd still need some evidence that it was something that was withheld, whereas we know for sure that this is a junk story and in line with other fictionalized accounts(one on AP, I believe about a Bush rally) that have found traction in the larger media.

[aREDSKIN]

Information recently released by NBC News, the LA Times, and the Associated Press quite suggests that the New York Times and CBS News might have been attempting to disseminate a midnight hour, election eve expose designed to unseat an incumbent President without properly vetting it for accuracy. And, it is quite conceivable that the United Nations is stuck right in the middle of the conspiracy.

Furthermore, as the Kerry campaign and their media minions watched their hero sag in the polls with the election just days away, their despair rose to such heights that they chose to focus America’s attention on a supposed news bombshell designed to rock the electorate into a final capitulation. Fortunately, it appears that there is one honest member of the mainstream news media that was unwilling to participate in the cabal, and, instead, threw a sizable monkey wrench into their scheme.

This past Sunday evening, the Internet was all abuzz with reports of a huge cache of weapons lost in Iraq due to the bungling of the Bush administration. The story was released by the New York Times, and, on principle, I refuse to provide a link that in any way connects me to this national disgrace. However, as was typical, this became the Talking Points for Senator Kerry and his henchmen all Monday with every media outlet focusing on the story. True to form, Mr. Kerry pointed out that this represented another colossal failure on the part of the Bush administration to keep America safe, and was yet one more indication of how poorly the war was planned.

One problem: it appears that this munitions storage facility at Al Qaqaa was cleared of the most dangerous weapons in question BEFORE the United States ever got there, possibly by Saddam Hussein himself. Fortunately for all those interested in the truth – which clearly exempts 99% of our media – the NBC “Nightly News” elected to rise above all the excrement being spewed on the airwaves, and actually reported some facts. As transcribed by Jim Geraghty of the National Review:

NBC News: Miklaszewski: “April 10, 2003, only three weeks into the war, NBC News was embedded with troops from the Army's 101st Airborne as they temporarily take over the Al Qakaa weapons installation south of Baghdad. But these troops never found the nearly 380 tons of some of the most powerful conventional explosives, called HMX and RDX, which is now missing. The U.S. troops did find large stockpiles of more conventional weapons, but no HMX or RDX, so powerful less than a pound brought down Pan Am 103 in 1988, and can be used to trigger a nuclear weapon.” (NBC’s “Nightly News,” 10/25/04)

As one would imagine, this revelation has not deterred the NY Times, or Mr. Kerry, from continuing with this charade. In fact, Matt Drudge – who first released word of the pending bombshell on Sunday evening – reports that the Kerry campaign has released a new TV commercial referencing these supposedly missing weapons. What a shock that the ad includes a reprint of the NY Times headline about this incident.

The truly scary aspect of this whole seedy affair is the implication that this is all a coordinated effort on the part of the NY Times, CBS News, the United Nations, and possibly the Kerry campaign. To try and flesh this out, let’s look at some of the facts and the timetable involved.

According to an article in Tuesday’s LA Times, CBS News’ “60 Minutes” had this story last week, and was planning on airing it this coming Sunday, just 36 hours before the polls would open in the East. Unfortunately, when it became clear that the story was going to break well before this, CBS decided to hand it over to its reporting partner, the NY Times. However, what is

truly peculiar is that CBS got this tip last Wednesday, but the information had not been reported to the United Nations until the following Monday.

As William J. Kole of AP asserted on Tuesday morning, “International Atomic Energy Agency chief Mohamed ElBaradei reported the disappearance to the U.N. Security Council on Monday, two weeks after he said Iraq told the nuclear agency that the explosives had vanished from the former Iraqi military installation as a result of ‘theft and looting ... due to lack of security.’”

Hmmm. So, ElBaradei reports this information to the U.N. on Monday, but CBS and the NY Times had it last Wednesday. How did that happen? Well, according to this same AP report, “But since the disappearance was reported Monday in The New York Times, ElBaradei said he wanted the Security Council to have the letter dated Oct. 10 that he received from Mohammed J. Abbas, a senior official at Iraq's Ministry of Science and Technology, reporting the theft of 377 tons of explosives.”

Wait a minute. So, ElBaradei received this information from Abbas in a letter dated October 10 th. Then, on October 20 th, the NY Times and CBS News got the same information, and, as a result of this leak, ElBaradei believed it was necessary to inform the U.N. Security Council. Given this, if the only people who were in possession of this information prior to October 20 th were ElBaradei and Abbas, this leak must have somehow come from one of them. And, since Abbas is in Iraq, and ElBaradei, as part of the U.N., is in New York much of the time, whom does the Fickle Finger of Fate Award point to?

The question arises as to why ElBaradei would do such a thing if indeed he is the culprit. It is no secret that ElBaradei is no friend of the Bush administration. His testimony at the U.N. during the lead up to the Iraq invasion was certainly not helpful. And, in return, the administration has been quite critical of ElBaradei and the IAEA for not better informing the international community of how advanced Libya and Iran were in their nuclear activities. Given this, as well as Senator Kerry’s love affair with the U.N., it certainly wouldn’t be at all surprising that ElBaradei would be quite happy to see President Bush and his whole team replaced.

However, regardless of motive, if this information was indeed leaked by ElBaradei or someone on his staff, his resignation needs to be tendered or his position with the IAEA terminated immediately. To be sure, the nuclear inspection arm of the United Nations cannot tolerate leaks about weaponry coming from the head of the organization. Furthermore, a full-scale investigation needs to be launched into determining how this information was transferred to CBS News, and when the Kerry campaign was notified of its existence.

The bottom line is that the integrity of our news media continues to be compromised by the comportment of some of the old stalwarts who unashamedly behave as if they are above scrutiny and reproach. This election period has been marred by regular conspiratorial incidents from some of this old guard that undermine America’s faith in our reporting institutions. When similar allegations of misconduct were leveled at the BBC in Great Britain over false accusations of the Blair administration having “sexed up” arms reports in Iraq, the British government was quick to levy significant fines and reprimands that lead to resignations all the way to the top of that esteemed corporation. By contrast, after some very high profile reporting fiascos here at home these last two years, there has been no similar action by our government to punish the guilty parties, and no corresponding senior management terminations or resignations. Certainly, the lack of consequence for these abhorrent actions ensures that they will continue.

With the kind of unseemly and almost tabloid-like news fabrications that we have been witnessing from some of our oldest and most well-respected news institutions, it appears high time for America to collectively invoke the memory of UBS’ Howard Beale, and let these media barons know that we are all mad as hell, and we’re not going to take it anymore.

Noel Sheppard

http://www.mensnewsdaily.com/archive/s/sheppard/04/sheppard102704.htm

[Thiebear]

Originally posted by Larry

Thiebear,

Re: Your source's logistical calculations:

If they park the truck closer to the ammo, then they can do a load every one minute, (per man), which means five times the loading rate (or one-fifth the people).

Don't know about you, but I don't have too much problem with 50-pound loads, and I'm a 45-year-old, out-of-shape civilian. (OTOH, I doubt I can keep it up for 12 hours. Might work out even).

OTOH, the numbers he's using may well be based on something completely irrelevent, like real-world experience, or something.

Go back and read it again: If you can run a 50pd pack to a truck at one a minute for 12 hours I salute you! You are a BEAST!!!!

I've seen the Strongest Man contest on ESPN2 quite a bit during lunch at Chili's.. Please point out which one YOU are .

Your talking about Cluster of Buildings? These small bands would have to park right next to each one and fill them up in a minutes each while having other trucks ready: **** Dont forget the Logistical Part of this ****

50pds a minute = 3000 pds an hour x 12 hours = 36000 pds a day. Okay... I lift 120pd servers and 90pd Printers quite often.. with help.. they are bulky and SQUARE.. lots of lower back pain if you keep trying to do it by yourself.. Run them 20yds every minute and I'm calling "DEATH by overload"...

All the While this is going on in the REAR FLANK of the the Military heading towards Bagdad and the supply train keep them going... Predator B's and Choppers behind them...

But the 70 trucks it would take at superhuman 50pds a man per minute to Truck ratio would never be detected...

try agian

[Thiebear]

Larry:

To put this into perspective:

I will order you a Fleece Jacket, a Fleece Hat, a Hat and a Tee if: You can give us a video of YOU.

1. Taking a pre-arranged Pile of 50pd Sandbags in perfect order.

2. Fill up the back of the Pickup truck with those 50pd Sandbags.

3. 15yds away at 1 a minute

Just ONE truck...Just ONE day... Just as long as it takes???

What would that be? 6 high x 6 wide x 5 long = 180 sandbags...

180 x 50 = 9000 pds and is only 3 hours so you should be WELL below your estimates above...

I will definately keep my word, good luck with all of that!

** I'm guessing after the 12th trip your falling behind **

** I'm guessing after the 20th minute the clock is shot**

** I'm guessing after the 40th trip due to the clock being shot, medics are standing by**

** I'm guessing after the 60th trip I'd give you hat just on principle** Just give me the cemetary to send it to your 45year old carcas...**

[aREDSKIN]

On Monday, The New York Times reported that 380 tons of conventional explosives were missing from an Iraqi weapons facility. The Times blamed President George W. Bush for not securing the dangerous explosives immediately after U.S. forces toppled Saddam Hussein’s regime. It was an explosive story timed for maximum political effect. Democratic presidential nominee John Kerry welcomed the news and made it the centerpiece of his campaign speeches, citing the missing explosives as an example of Bush’s failure of leadership. There is only one problem – the story was false. The truth is the explosives were removed before American troops arrived.

Of course, Kerry still pounded the story as if it were true. Even a day after the truth was published in numerous other media sources, Kerry continued to repeat the discredited story and continued to blame Bush for a failure of leadership that simply did not occur. Kerry has been blaming Bush for every conceivable problem. I half expect him to blame Bush for milk spoiling when its left out on the counter too long and to announce that he has a “better plan.”

Here’s the truth the Times did not bother to report and that Kerry chose to ignore. In the early days of Operation Iraqi Freedom, American troops raced towards Baghdad through the desert. The 101st Airborne Division was the first to arrive at the Al Qaqaa weapons facility located just 30 miles outside Baghdad. This is where the 380 tons of explosives were supposed to be. But, the NBC News camera crew embedded with the 101st Airborne Division reported that there was no HMX and no RDX, the powerful explosives that were reportedly stored at Al Qaqaa.

Simply stated, the 380 tons of high explosives that the Times says went missing after the Americans arrived, were actually missing before the 101st Airborne Division arrived on April 10, 2003.

It is interesting that neither Kerry nor the Times mention that U.S. forces have secured more than 400,000 tons of explosives in Iraq – making the missing 380 tons less than 1/10th of 1% of the explosives U.S. forces have found and are destroying in Iraq.

Perhaps Saddam moved the explosives shortly after the weapons inspectors identified them. Perhaps they were moved days before the war began. But we know with certainty that the explosives were not there when American troops first rolled into the Al Qaqaa weapons facility as Baghdad was liberated.

John Kerry dishonestly jumped on the false explosives story even after it was discredited because he is losing a close election and needs something to change current trends. Kerry has lied throughout the campaign – falsely claiming to have met with members of the UN Security Council and consistently reciting wildly false employment numbers and absurdly exaggerated costs for the war in Iraq, to name only three examples. The truth has never been particularly important to Kerry. In 1971, Kerry gave perjurious testimony to Congress when he falsely accused American soldiers of widespread war crimes. During his undistinguished Senate career, truth has often been a casualty of political ambition.

The New York Times revealed its rather obvious bias by jumping to a false conclusion that served its political purposes and reinforced its biases. The Times was willing to overlook the lack of factual support for the story. It is reminiscent of Dan Rather’s and CBS News’ recent fraudulent document scandal.

It is interesting that before being “scooped” by the Times, CBS had planned to run with the false “missing explosives” story only two days before Election Day. Apparently, CBS was prepared to launch yet another false and politically motivated story – this one on election eve so that no effective response could be made.

The New York Times, CBS News and many others in the “mainstream” media are shameless. They feign impartiality, pretend to be honest, and become angry at the mere suggestion of bias. Yet there can be no doubt. They are shills for John Kerry. They have repeatedly demonstrated their bias. Both the Times and CBS were once respected news organizations. Today, they survive on past accomplishments. They are no longer reputable news sources. They are little more than special interest groups campaigning for Kerry. Little wonder fewer and fewer people watch or subscribe.

http://www.opinioneditorials.com/contributors/glandrith_20041027.html

[Ghost of]

The October 8th mention of "that ammo dump" by Kerry is curious, especially that he has a commercial cued for this manufactured fiasco.

This is about more than Republican/Democrat. This is about a potential unspoken conspiracy to impact the election through manufactured 'news' and election-eve 'bombshells' like Bush's 25 year old DUI.

[Larry]

OTOH, I keep seeing stories now comming out, with some (still more) revisions to these stories.

The embedded reporter (curious, it's looking like everybody seems to think the embedded reporter is the only credible witness) is now saying that he (she?) has no idea if these explosives were there or not, because the unit was not looking for such weapons. (They did look for NBC weapons, though). Supposedly this weapons depot was simply a stopping point on the unit's way towards their primary objective of Baghdad.

If this is the case (Yes, I'm engaging in that old, tired thing of semantic analysis) then I have to point out that "We didn't find those explosives" does not imply "We looked for those explosives" or "The explosives weren't there".

OTOH, is this a case of the right trying to spin the lack of a report of the weapons into a declaration of their absence, or a case of the left trying to spin a negative report into a report of a lack of effort?

This close to the election, I'd bet that both sides are spinning, and they're doing it a lot, under the (correct) assumption that, if they just keep slinging things, everybody'll be too busy ducking to respond for a week.

[aREDSKIN]

The liars, dissemblers and partisians are on the attack.

A study of the major media by the Project for Excellence in Journalism finds that news stories are favoring John Kerry by a ratio of almost 2 to 1.

As the president campaign has turned to the final stretch, news reports have become increasingly biased.

The Boston Globe reported Wednesday that the Journalism "survey released yesterday . . . found that 59 percent of the stories that were primarily about Bush from Oct. 1-14 were negative in tone, compared to only 25 percent of the stories about Kerry. And while 34 percent of the Kerry coverage was favorable, a mere 14 percent of the president's coverage put him in a positive light. The survey examined 817 stories from The Washington Post, The New York Times, The Columbus Dispatch, and The Miami Herald; the evening and morning news programs on ABC, CBS, and NBC; PBS's nightly newscast, CNN's NewsNight With Aaron Brown; and the Fox News Channel's Special Report With Brit Hume."

One can only imagine how much more that coverage would favor Kerry had Fox, which offers more balanced coverage, not been included in the study.

''I have no doubt that people who perceive the press as liberal are going to see evidence of this in those numbers," Tom Rosenstiel, director of the Project for Excellence in Journalism, told the Globe. ''My own view is that the inside-baseball, drama-critic mentality is at play here, and it's the same mentality that helped Bush four years ago."

Chuck Todd, editor of the Hotline, chalked up the favorable Kerry coverage to Bill Clinton's former Clinton press secretary Mike McCurry who joined the Kerry campaign.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2004/10/27/83221.shtml

[galentjm]

Regardless of whether the weapons were moved prior to the U.S. invasion or if insurgents ran off with the cache during the night (highly unlikely) this circumstance accentuates the extreme irresponsibility of the NY Times/CBS and Kerry's willingness to say or do anything to win this election.

Regardless of which way the cookie crumbled both the NY Times/CBS, and Kerry should have done their due diligence to ensure they had the facts CONFIRMED prior to running with the story.

It is completely unprofessional and unethical of all news media to abuse their outlet by perpetuating a set of unsubstantiated events. The public looks to them to provide a factual account of the events taking place in today's world, and what we have here is a clear abuse of that privelege. And the timing of this whole thing only brings the integrity of these organizations into question only further. The left wing media is rapidly sinking to the level of Michael Moore.

And Kerry was only too eager to jump on the bandwagon and take another swipe at the President. He represents all that is wrong in today's political arena. His slash and burn, do or say anything in order to further a political agenda is despicable.

The saying goes "All is fair in love, war, and politics" but where does the line get drawn? First we're using the sexual preferences of opponents children as talking points in presidential debates, now this. What's next? And we wonder why we have so many disenfranchised voters.

[jpillian]

BTW -- Here is a very informative article from Globalsecurity.org on RDX and HMX explosives. Totally irrelevant to the debate -- but pretty educational.

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/munitions/explosives-nitramines.htm

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Explosives - Nitramines

The nitramines are the most recently introduced class of organic nitrate explosives. The most prominent member of this class is RDX (research department explosive; hexahydro-1,3,5-trinitro-1,3,5 triazine, which is also known as cyclonite); HMX (high melting explosive; octahydro-1,3,5,7-tetranitro-1,3,5,7 tetrazocine), nitroguanidine, and tetryl are also significant nitramines.

In a class of explosives like nitramines, the higher density, bigger molecules will give more power because more realizable energy can be packed in the same space. Bigger molecules using the same proportion of elements are more dense because the formation of covalent bonds makes atoms come closer together than if they were just pushed together but from different molecules. HMX is a big ring molecule, same as RDX but with an extra CH2NNO2 unit. It has higher density (TMD 1.902) than RDX, 1.806, its det. vel is 9.11 km/sec vs. 8.70 for RDX. It is considered more powerful.

Pollution from manufacturing processes of the major energetic materials currently used in the U.S., 1,3,5-trinitro-1,3,5-triazacyclohexane (RDX), 1,3,5,7-tetranitro-1,3,5,7 tetraazacyclooctane (HMX) was briefly evaluated. It was found that acetic acid was a major pollutant. It appeared that the British Process could be controlled to reduce the polluting effluents better than the Bachmann Process used in the U.S.

RDX [Cyclonite - Hexahydro-1,3,5-trinitro-1,3,5-triazine]

RDX stands for Royal Demolition eXplosive. It is also known as cyclonite or hexogen. RDX is currently the most important military high explosive in the US. Cyclotrimethylenetrinitramine, C3H6N606 (RDX), is second in strength to nitroglycerin among common explosive substances. When compressed to a specific gravity of 1.70, it has a confined detonation velocity of about 27,000 fps. RDX is used as an explosive, usually in mixtures with other explosives, oils, or waxes. It has a high degree of stability in storage and is considered the most powerful and brisant of the military high explosives. RDX is used as a base charge in detonators and in blasting caps. RDX can be used alone or with other explosives, including PETN.t RDX can be mixed with plasticizers to make C-4, and the most common explosive combining RDX and PETN is Semtex. RDX forms the base for the following common military explosives: Composition A, Composition B, Composition C, HBX, H-6 and Cyclotol. Composition A consists of RDX melted with wax; in Composition B, RDX is mixed with TNT; and Composition C contains RDX blended with a non-explosive plasticizer. Pure RDX is used in press-loaded projectiles. Cast loading is accomplished by blending RDX with a relatively low melting point substance.

RDX has both military and civilian applications. As a military explosive, RDX can be used alone as a base charge for detonators or mixed with another explosive such as TNT to form cyclotols, which produce a bursting charge for aerial bombs, mines, and torpedoes. Common military uses of RDX have been as an ingredient in plastic bonded explosives, or plastic explosives which have been used as explosive fill in almost all types of munition compounds. Civilian applications of RDX include use in fireworks, in demolition blocks, as a heating fuel for food rations, and as an occasional rodenticide. Combinations of RDX and HMX, another explosive, have been the chief ingredients in approximately 75 products.

RDX is an explosive nitramine compound. It is in the form of a white powder with a density of 1.806 g/cc. Nitrogen content of 37.84%. The chemical name for RDX is 1,3,5-trinitro-1,3,5-triazine. The chemical formula for RDX is C3H6N6O6 and the molecular weight is 222.117. Its melting point is 205°C. RDX has very low solubility in water and has an extremely low volatility. RDX does not sorb to soil very strongly and can move into the groundwater from soil. It can be broken down in air and water in a few hours, but breaks down more slowly in soil.

Although RDX [Royal Demolition Explosive or Research Department Explosive] was first prepared in 1899, its explosive properties were not appreciated until 1920. RDX was used widely during World War II because petroleum was not needed as a raw ingredient. During and since World War II, RDX has become the second-most-widely used high explosive in the military, exceeded only by TNT. As with most military explosives, RDX is rarely used alone; it is widely used as a component of plastic explosives, detonators, high explosives in artillery rounds, Claymore mines, and demolition kits. RDX has limited civilian use as a rat poison.

RDX can cause seizures in humans and animals when large amounts are inhaled or ingested. Nausea and vomiting have also been observed. The effects of long-term (365 days or longer), low-level exposure on the nervous system are not known. No other significant health effects have been reported in humans. Rats and mice that ate RDX for 3 months or more had decreased body weights and slight liver and kidney damage. It is not known whether RDX causes birth defects in humans. It did not cause birth defects in rabbits, but did result in smaller offspring in rats. It is not known whether RDX affects reproduction in humans. The EPA has determined that RDX is a possible human carcinogen (Class C). In one study, RDX caused liver tumors in mice that were exposed to it in the diet. However, carcinogenic effects were not noted in rat studies and no human data are available. RDX does not bioaccumulate in fish or in humans.

RDX has been produced several ways, but the most common method of manufacture used in the United States is the continuous Bachmann process. The Bachmann process involves reacting hexamine with nitric acid, ammonium nitrate, glacial acetic acid, and acetic anhydride. The crude product is filtered and recrystallized to form RDX. The byproducts of RDX manufacture include nitrogen oxides, sulfur oxides, acid mists, and unreacted ingredients. A second process that has been used to manufacture RDX, the direct nitration of octahydro-1,3,5,7-tetranitro-1,3,5,7-tetrazocine (HMX), has not yielded a percentage of RDX as high as the percentage produced in the Bachmann process (Army 1978; Merck 1989).

Production of RDX peaked in the 1960s when it was ranked third in explosive production by volume in the United States. The average volume of RDX produced from 1969 to 1971 was 15 million pounds per month. However, production of RDX decreased to a yearly total of 16 million pounds for 1984.

RDX is not produced commercially in the United States. Production in the United States is limited to Army ammunition plants such as Holston Army ammunition plant in Kingsport, Tennessee, which has been operating at 10-20% capacity. Several Army ammunition plants, such as Louisiana (Shreveport, Louisiana), Lone Star (Texarkana, Texas), Iowa (Middletown, Iowa), and Milan (Milan, Tennessee), also handle and package RDX. Since the release of RDX is not required to be reported under SARA Section 313, there are no data on RDX in the Toxics Release Inventory (TRI 1993).

Waste-water treatment sludges resulting from the manufacture of RDX are classified as hazardous wastes and are subject to EPA regulations. Munitions such as RDX have been disposed of in the past by dumping in deep sea water. By-products of military explosives such as RDX have also been openly burned in many Army ammunition plants in the past. There are indications that in recent years as much as 80% of waste munitions and propellants have been disposed of by incineration. Wastes containing RDX have been incinerated by grinding the explosive wastes with a flying knife cutter and spraying the ground material with water to form a slurry. The types of incineration used to dispose of waste munitions containing RDX include rotary kiln incineration, fluidized bed incineration, and pyrolitic incineration. The primary disadvantage of open burning or incineration is that explosive contaminants are often released into the air, water, and soils.

Soldiers and other workers have been exposed to RDX during its manufacture, in the field, and through the contamination of the environment. The main occupational exposure to RDX during its manufacture is through the inhalation of fine dust particles. Ingestion may also be a possible route of exposure, but it is poorly absorbed through the dermis.

The greatest potential for occupational exposure to RDX occurs at ammunition plants with load, assemble and pack (LAP) operations, where workers involved with melt-pouring and maintenance operations have the greatest potential for exposures.

In 1962, five cases of convulsions or unconsciousness or both occurred at an RDX manufacturing plant in the United States. All five employees had convulsions during their work shifts or within a few hours after their shifts were over. These patients exhibited little or no prodrome, and the postictal phase lasted up to 24 hours. No abnormal laboratory or physical findings were noted.

Troops have also become intoxicated during field operations from exposure to composition C4 plastic explosive, which contains 91% RDX. These field exposures occurred because C4 was either chewed as an intoxicant or used as a fuel for cooking. Thus, the route of exposure was ingestion or inhalation. At least 40 American soldiers experienced convulsions due to RDX ingestion during the Vietnam War.

After acute exposure by inhalation or ingestion, there is a latent period of a few hours, followed by a general sequence of intoxication that begins with a prodromal period of irritability. Neurological symptoms predominate and include restlessness and hyperirritability; headache; weakness; dizziness; hyperactive reflexes; nausea and vomiting; prolonged and recurrent generalized convulsions; muscle twitching and soreness; and stupor, delirium, and disorientation.

Clinical findings in acute exposures may also include fever, tachycardia, hematuria, proteinuria, azotemia, mild anemia, neutrophilic leukocytosis, elevated AST, and electroencephalogram (EEG) abnormalities. These abnormal effects, transient and unreliable for diagnosis purposes, last at most a few days. In fact, all physical and laboratory tests may remain normal, even in the presence of seizures. EEGs made at the time of convulsions may show bilateral synchronous spike and wave complexes (2-3/sec) in the frontal areas with diffuse slow wave activity; normalization occurs within 1 to 3 months.

RDX in the wastewater from manufacturing and loading operations has also contaminated the environment. Although contamination has appeared in soil and groundwater near some ammunition plants, RDX's low solubility in water has limited its migration in most cases.

Although intensive research with animals has revealed some effects, few effects of chronic human exposure to RDX have been reported. Investigations into the mutagenicity and carcinogenicity of RDX have yielded conflicting results. RDX does not appear to be a mutagen, based on negative results in the Ames tests, the dominant lethal test, and the unscheduled deoxyribonucleic acid synthesis assay. RDX has not been found to be carcinogenic in gavage studies performed on rats, but increased hepatocellular carcinoma and adenoma were noted in females of one strain of mice. Due to this finding, the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency has classified RDX as a possible human carcinogen.

Reproductive effects have been noted in rabbits and rats. A study performed on rabbits showed teratogenic effects at 2 mg/kg/day (10% of the dose that caused maternal toxicity). Similarly, a teratology study performed on pregnant rats exposed to RDX resulted in offspring with lower body weights and shorter body lengths than were found in the control group. These researchers therefore recommended that human females of childbearing age be protected from exposure to RDX.

Despite the low toxicity of RDX, exposure should be maintained at the lowest levels possible due to its possible carcinogenicity. General medical surveillance examinations can be conducted (such as liver and kidney function tests), but specific testing for the effects of low level occupational exposure does not appear to be warranted, given the absence of abnormal results even in those patients with RDX-induced seizures. Surveillance for both males and females should also include a screening questionnaire for reproductive history. Pregnant women should avoid exposure to RDX.

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HMX [Octogen - Octahydro-1,3,5,7-tetranitro-1,3,5,7-tetrazocine ]

High Melting Explosive [HMX] is the highest-energy solid explosive produced on a large scale in the United States. It is also known as Octogen and cyclotetramethylene-tetranitramine, as well as other names. HMX explodes violently at high temperatures (534°F and above). Because of this property, HMX is used exclusively for military purposes to implode fissionable material in nuclear devices, as a component of plastic-bonded explosives, as a component of rocket propellant, and as a high explosive burster charge. The use of HMX as a propellant and in maximum-performance explosives is increasing.

HMX was discovered as a by-product in the production of RDX. Although it is almost as sensitive and powerful as RDX, it is seldom used alone in military applications but is normally mixed with another compound, such as TNT. In the Navy, HMX is used as an ingredient in plastic-bonded explosives.

HMX is produced by the nitration of hexamine with ammonium nitrate and nitric acid in an acetic acid/acetic anhydride solvent at 44°C. The raw materials are mixed in a two-step process and the product is purified by recrystallization. This is a modification of the Bachmann Process used to produce RDX, another explosive. The yield of HMX is about 55-60%, with RDX as an impurity. RDX produced by the Bachmann Process usually contains about 8-12% HMX as an acceptable byproduct.

HMX is currently produced at only one facility in the United States, the Holston Army Ammunition Plant in Kingsport, Tennessee. The amount of HMX made and used in the United States at present is not known, but it is believed to be greater than 30 million pounds [15,000 tons] per year between 1969 and 1971. No estimates of current production volume were located, but it is estimated that its use is increasing. Processing may occur at load, assemble, and pack (LAP) facilities operated by the military. There were 10 facilities engaged in LAP operations in the United States in 1976

No information was located regarding import or export of HMX in the United States. Export of this chemical is regulated by the U.S. State Department.

Wastes from explosive manufacturing processes are classified as hazardous wastes by EPA. Generators of these wastes must conform to EPA regulations for treatment, storage, and disposal. The waste water treatment sludges from processing of explosives are listed as hazardous wastes by EPA based only on reactivity. Waste water treatment may involve filtering through activated charcoal, photolytic degradation, and biodegradation. Rotary kiln or fluidized bed incineration methods are acceptable disposal methods for HMX-containing wastes. At the Holston facility, waste waters are generated from the manufacturing areas and piped to an industrial water treatment plant on site. Following neutralization and nutrient addition, sludge is aerobically digested and dewatered. It was estimated that the facility generates a maximum of 3,800 tons (7.6 million pounds) of treated, dewatered sludge annually. Based on demonstration by Holston that this sludge is nonhazardous, the EPA proposed granting a petition to exclude the sludge from hazardous waste control. HMX is not listed on the Toxics Release Inventory (TRI) database, because it is not a chemical for which companies are required to report discharges to environmental media.

HMX or octahydro-1,3,5,7-tetranitro-1,3,5,7-tetrazocine is an explosive polynitramine. The chemical formula is C4H8N8O8 and molecular weight is 296.20. It is a colorless solid with a melting point of 276 to 286°C. HMX is made by the nitration of hexamine with ammonium nitrate and nitric acid in an acetic acid/acetic anhydride solvent. A small amount of HMX is also formed in making cyclotrimethylene-trinitramine (RDX), another explosive similar in structure to HMX.

It dissolves slightly in water. Only a very small amount of HMX will evaporate into the air; however, it can occur in air attached to suspended particles or dust. The taste and smell of HMX are not known.

HMX is a manmade chemical and does not occur naturally in the environment. It is made from other chemicals known as hexamine, ammonium nitrate, nitric acid, and acetic acid. A small amount of HMX is also formed in making cyclotrimethylene-trinitramine (RDX), another explosive similar in structure to HMX.

HMX is only slightly soluble in water. It has low volatility and thus only a small amount of HMX will evaporate into the air; however, it can occur in air attached to suspended particles or dust. In surface water, HMX does not evaporate or bind to sediments to any large extent. Sunlight breaks down most of the HMX in surface water into other compounds, usually in a matter of days to weeks. HMX is likely to move from soil into groundwater, particularly in sandy soils.

Exposure to HMX can occur during the manufacture and filling of munitions or through the environmental contamination of groundwater and soil. HMX, like RDX, is manufactured using the continuous Bachman process. Although its solubility in water is very low, HMX can be present in particulate form in water effluent from manufacturing, LAP, and demilitarization operations.

Information on the adverse health effects of HMX is limited. In one study on humans, no adverse effects were reported in workers exposed to HMX in air. However, the concentrations of HMX in the workplace air were not reported in this study, and only a small number of workers and effects were investigated.

Studies in rats, mice, and rabbits indicate that HMX may be harmful to the liver and central nervous system if it is swallowed or contacts the skin. The lowest dose producing any effects in animals was 100 milligrams per kilogram of body weight per day (mg/kg/day) orally and 165 mg/kg/day on the skin. Limited evidence suggests that even a single exposure to these dose levels harmed rabbits. The mechanism by which HMX causes adverse effects on the liver and nervous system is not understood.

The reproductive and developmental effects of HMX have not been well studied in humans or animals. At present, the information needed to determine if HMX causes cancer is insufficient. Due to the lack of information, EPA has determined that HMX is not classifiable as to its human carcinogenicity.

The data on the effects on human health of exposure to HMX are very limited. HMX causes CNS effects similar to those of RDX, but at considerably higher doses. In one study, volunteers submitted to patch testing, which produced skin irritation. Another study of a cohort of 93 workers at an ammunition plant found no hematological, hepatic, autoimmune, or renal diseases. However, the study did not quantify the levels of exposure to HMX.

HMX exposure has been investigated in several studies on animals. Overall, the toxicity appears to be quite low. HMX is poorly absorbed by ingestion. When applied to the dermis, it induces mild skin irritation but not delayed contact sensitization. Various acute and subchronic neurobehavioral effects have been reported in rabbits and rodents, including ataxia, sedation, hyperkinesia, and convulsions. The chronic effects of HMX that have been documented through animal studies include decreased hemoglobin, increased serum alkaline phosphatase, and decreased albumin. Pathological changes were also observed in the animals' livers and kidneys. No data are available concerning the possible reproductive, developmental, or carcinogenic effects of HMX.

[line]

CL-20 / HNIW

CL-20 [2,4,6,8,10,12-hexanitrohexaazaisowurtzitane (HNIW) ] is a new nitramine explosive that is 20 percent more powerful that HMX. The trend today is to explore the possibilities that HNIW can provide to munitions;from high performance gun propellants , shaped charges etc. The only limitation is the cost of its production. Even there had been practical methods to nitrate the special reactant (acetyl Isowurtzitane derivatives) with mixed acid, but the effort of debenzylation of the condensation products of glyoxal and benzylamine still requires the expensive palladium catalyst. Therefore it will take some time before it can reach the level of comparatively lower cost needed to make HMX.

CL-20 exists in four crystalline forms, stable at different temperatures. Only the e and the ß form are used in ex-ploitation. CL-20 has better detonation properties than octogen, higher den-sity and detonation rate but lower impact and friction sensitivity (of the PETN class). The CL-20 melting point is lower than in octogen, 240°C approximately.

[Joe Sick]

Haven't you people read the news today?

I fail to see how a story that only started on Oct. 10, by an Iraqi gov't official can be a bombshell or so somehow preplanned. I don't like these October Surprises, either, but from eyewitness accounts this is not a 'planted' story. It's just another example of poor planning by this administration.

Want to know why there are so many bad news stories about Bush in the paper? It's the incompetence, stupid!

---------

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/10/27/politics/27bomb.html?oref=login

No Check of Bunker, Unit Commander Says

By JIM DWYER and DAVID E. SANGER

Published: October 27, 2004

White House officials reasserted yesterday that 380 tons of powerful explosives may have disappeared from a vast Iraqi military complex while Saddam Hussein controlled Iraq, saying a brigade of American soldiers did not find the explosives when they visited the complex on April 10, 2003, the day after Baghdad fell.

But the unit's commander said in an interview yesterday that his troops had not searched the site and had merely stopped there overnight.

The commander, Col. Joseph Anderson, of the Second Brigade of the Army's 101st Airborne Division, said he did not learn until this week that the site, Al Qaqaa, was considered sensitive, or that international inspectors had visited it before the war began in 2003 to inspect explosives that they had tagged during a decade of monitoring.

Colonel Anderson, who is now the chief of staff for the division and who spoke by telephone from Fort Campbell, Ky., said his troops had been driving north toward Baghdad and had paused at Al Qaqaa to make plans for their next push.

"We happened to stumble on it,'' he said. "I didn't know what the place was supposed to be. We did not get involved in any of the bunkers. It was not our mission. It was not our focus. We were just stopping there on our way to Baghdad. The plan was to leave that very same day. The plan was not to go in there and start searching. It looked like all the other ammunition supply points we had seen already."

What had been, for the colonel and his troops, an unremarkable moment during the sweep to Baghdad took on new significance this week, after The New York Times, working with the CBS News program "60 Minutes," reported that the explosives at Al Qaqaa, mainly HMX and RDX, had disappeared since the invasion.

Earlier this month, officials of the interim Iraqi government informed the United Nations International Atomic Energy Agency that the explosives disappeared sometime after the fall of Mr. Hussein on April 9, 2003. Al Qaqaa, which has been unguarded since the American invasion, was looted in the spring of 2003, and looters were seen there as recently as Sunday.

President Bush's aides told reporters that because the soldiers had found no trace of the missing explosives on April 10, they could have been removed before the invasion. They based their assertions on a report broadcast by NBC News on Monday night that showed video images of the 101st arriving at Al Qaqaa.

By yesterday afternoon Mr. Bush's aides had moderated their view, saying it was a "mystery" when the explosives disappeared and that Mr. Bush did not want to comment on the matter until the facts were known.

On Sunday, administration officials said that the Iraq Survey Group, the C.I.A. taskforce that hunted for unconventional weapons, had been ordered to look into the disappearance of the explosives. On Tuesday night, CBS News reported that Charles A. Duelfer, the head of the taskforce, denied receiving such an order.

At the Pentagon, a senior official, who asked not to be identified, acknowledged that the timing of the disappearance remained uncertain. "The bottom line is that there is still a lot that is not known," the official said.

The official suggested that the material could have vanished while Mr. Hussein was still in power, sometime between mid-March, when the international inspectors left, and April 3, when members of the Army's Third Infantry Division fought with Iraqis inside Al Qaqaa. At the time, it was reported that those soldiers found a white powder that was tentatively identified as explosives. The site was left unguarded, the official said.

The 101st Airborne Division arrived April 10 and left the next day. The next recorded visit by Americans came on May 27, when Task Force 75 inspected Al Qaqaa, but did not find the large quantities of explosives that had been seen in mid-March by the international inspectors. By then, Al Qaqaa had plainly been looted.

Colonel Anderson said he did not see any obvious signs of damage when he arrived on April 10, but that his focus was strictly on finding a secure place to collect his troops, who were driving and flying north from Karbala.

"There was no sign of looting here," Colonel Anderson said. "Looting was going on in Baghdad, and we were rushing on to Baghdad. We were marshaling in."

A few days earlier, some soldiers from the division thought they had discovered a cache of chemical weapons that turned out to be pesticides. Several of them came down with rashes, and they had to go through a decontamination procedure. Colonel Anderson said he wanted to avoid a repeat of those problems, and because he had already seen stockpiles of weapons in two dozen places, did not care to poke through the stores at Al Qaqaa.

"I had given instructions, 'Don't mess around with those. It looks like they are bunkers; we're not messing around with those things. That's not what we're here for,' " he said. "I thought we would be there for a few hours and move on. We ended up staying overnight."

Thom Shanker and William J. Broad contributed reporting for this article.

[Thiebear]

Haven't you people read the news today?

and

Want to know why there are so many bad news stories about Bush in the paper? It's the incompetence, stupid!

you should be clowned for your constant ability to try to talk down to just about everyone...

[SnyderShrugged]

That's great! You quote the Times as your source and it was the times that messed up in the first place.

The one fact youy need here is that NOONE KNOWS WHEN THE EXPLOSIVES WERE MOVED.

It's logical to see that the IAEA blew it and not our soldiers. Have some respect for our military in harms way please.

EDIT: Added link

http://www.nysun.com/article/3826

[SnyderShrugged]

Here JW, Pick these facts apart please.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136745,00.html

Search Showed No Explosives at Iraqi Base Before War's End

Wednesday, October 27, 2004

WASHINGTON — U.S. forces searched several times last year the Iraqi military base from which 380 tons of explosives vanished — including one check a week before Saddam Hussein was driven out of power. But the military saw no signs of a huge quantity of munitions, Pentagon officials told FOX News.

A timeline provided by the Defense Department is significant because officials from the new Iraqi interim government told the International Atomic Energy Agency (search) two weeks ago that the explosives were stolen sometime after coalition forces took control of Baghdad.

The IAEA reported the disappearance to the U.N. Security Council (search) on Monday, the same day the New York Times ran a front-page story on the topic. The story started a firestorm of debate that has consumed the presidential race in its closing days, forced the Pentagon to account for its actions and raised questions of media bias.

The explosives were being kept at the Al-Qaqaa (search) installation south of Baghdad. The munitions included HMX and RDX, key components in plastic explosives, which insurgents in Iraq have used in bomb attacks. The IAEA was monitoring the munitions because HMX is a "dual use" substance powerful enough to ignite the fissile material in an atomic bomb and set off a nuclear chain reaction.

On April 3, 2003, elements of the Army's 3rd Infantry Division (search) made it to Al-Qaqaa, where they were engaged by Iraqi forces from inside the facility, Defense officials told FOX News.

[troyster]

Originally posted by Jackson's Ward

Haven't you people read the news today?

I fail to see how a story that only started on Oct. 10, by an Iraqi gov't official can be a bombshell or so somehow preplanned. I don't like these October Surprises, either, but from eyewitness accounts this is not a 'planted' story. It's just another example of poor planning by this administration.

Want to know why there are so many bad news stories about Bush in the paper? It's the incompetence, stupid!

Do you really believe that anyone who has a different take than you is a blithering idiot, or is that just your style of speech? You might actually sway people to your point of view if you didn't insult everyone constantly.

[Joe Sick]

"I hope I am not responsible for Armageddon"

While the Bush administration scrambles to do damage control over the nearly 380 tons of missing high-tech explosives in Iraq, an Op-Ed today in the Boston Globe from arms control and non-proliferation expert Peter W. Galbraith, a former U.S. ambassador to Croatia, reveals more evidence of a long pattern of negligence by Team Bush in the war. There's little doubt now among military and security experts that the Rumsfeld doctrine of minimal-boots-on-the-ground resulted in poor capability for U.S. forces to control violence and looting after the fall of Baghdad -- but we're not just talking about a disregard for Iraqi museums here. The administration's failure to secure large amounts of potentially deadly materiel of all sorts, as described by Galbraith, is utterly frightening.

"In 2003 I went to tell Deputy Secretary of Defense Paul Wolfowitz what I had seen in Baghdad in the days following Saddam Hussein's overthrow. For nearly an hour, I described the catastrophic aftermath of the invasion -- the unchecked looting of every public institution in Baghdad, the devastation of Iraq's cultural heritage, the anger of ordinary Iraqis who couldn't understand why the world's only superpower was letting this happen.

"I also described two particularly disturbing incidents -- one I had witnessed and the other I had heard about. On April 16, 2003, a mob attacked and looted the Iraqi equivalent of the Centers for Disease Control, taking live HIV and black fever virus among other potentially lethal materials. US troops were stationed across the street but did not intervene because they didn't know the building was important.

"When he found out, the young American lieutenant was devastated. He shook his head and said, 'I hope I am not responsible for Armageddon.' About the same time, looters entered the warehouses at Iraq's sprawling nuclear facilities at Tuwaitha on Baghdad's outskirts. They took barrels of yellowcake (raw uranium), apparently dumping the uranium and using the barrels to hold water. US troops were at Tuwaitha but did not interfere.

"There was nothing secret about the Disease Center or the Tuwaitha warehouses. Inspectors had repeatedly visited the center looking for evidence of a biological weapons program. The Tuwaitha warehouses included materials from Iraq's nuclear program, which had been dismantled after the 1991 Gulf War. The United Nations had sealed the materials, and they remained untouched until the US troops arrived."

And while Wolfowitz and other fervent war hawks behind Bush believed that Baghdad would be but one stop on the road to transforming the greater Middle East -- including removing the dangerous mullahs of Tehran -- Galbraith shows how their arrogance and negligence in Iraq may have in fact strengthened America's number-two enemy in the so-called Axis of Evil:

"Some of the looting continued for many months -- possibly into 2004. Using heavy machinery, organized gangs took apart, according to [an] IAEA [report this month], 'entire buildings that housed high-precision equipment.' This equipment could be anywhere. But one good bet is Iran, which has had allies and agents in Iraq since shortly after the US-led forces arrived.

"This was a preventable disaster. Iraq's nuclear weapons-related materials were stored in only a few locations, and these were known before the war began. As even L. Paul Bremer III, the US administrator in Iraq, now admits, the United States had far too few troops to secure the country following the fall of Saddam Hussein. But even with the troops we had, the United States could have protected the known nuclear sites. It appears that troops did not receive relevant intelligence about Iraq's WMD facilities, nor was there any plan to secure them. Even after my briefing, the Pentagon leaders did nothing to safeguard Iraq's nuclear sites."

Galbraith is careful to point out that he supported the Bush administration's decision to overthrow Saddam, and that he himself, "at Wolfowitz's request," helped advance the case for war. But, he concludes, "without having planned or provided enough troops, we would be a lot safer if we hadn't gone to war."

[Joe Sick]

Originally posted by Thiebear

you should be clowned for your constant ability to try to talk down to just about everyone...

Truth hurts?

[portisizzle]

Did that report say something about WMD facilities.........

[Joe Sick]

Originally posted by troyster

Do you really believe that anyone who has a different take than you is a blithering idiot, or is that just your style of speech? You might actually sway people to your point of view if you didn't insult everyone constantly.

The saying "it's the incompetence, stupid" is a direct takeoff of Clinton's election mantra labeled "it's the economy, stupid."

I wasn't calling anyone stupid. Sorry if you didn't catch my reference there. I was saying that, much like Clinton, Kerry is using the "it's the incompetence, stupid" line.

------

Origin of the phrase:

During 1992 Bill Clinton and George Bush were fighting for the presidency of the United States. Bill Clinton was barely holding on to his place in the opinion polls. George Bush was pushing ahead drawing his on his stature as an experienced world leader.

James Carville, one of Bill Clinton's top advisers decided that their push for presidency needed focussing. Drawing on the research he had conducted he came up with a simple focus for their campaign. Every opportunity he had James Carville wrote four words - 'It's the economy, stupid' - on a whiteboard for Bill Clinton to see every time he went out to speak.

[portisizzle]

Yea ,there it is......

It appears that troops did not receive relevant intelligence about Iraq's WMD facilities, nor was there any plan to secure them. Even after my briefing, the Pentagon leaders did nothing to safeguard Iraq's nuclear sites."

Sounds like we did not go there soon enough.......