Kefka Posted January 20, 2002 Share Posted January 20, 2002 Hey Art, <br /><br />"It's their fault not ours...", what a bunch of b.s. This mindset is exactly whats wrong and got America in the position its it now. The truth blew-up in the face of America and its tasting what the Muslim world had been afflicted w/ for years. But whos crying for those victims of terrorism?<br /><br />Hey Art, I adhere to "that portion" of the text, and so do millions of Muslims worldwide. The portion which tells us to fight against those who agress and cause mischief in the land.<br /> <br /> [ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: Kefka ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 20, 2002 Share Posted January 20, 2002 Kefka,<br /><br /> This is cool, someone who might know a little more about the Koran. I work with a guy that is Muslim, but he is not exactly the real religious type. So, if you would, clarify a couple of points for me;<br /><br />How exactly do you figure that what happened at the WTC is Americas fault and not the fault of the buttheads that actually flew those planes. Please try to expound beyond the "America the great Satan" cliche.<br /><br />Also, as I said in an earlier post, the Bible is not exactly violence free, but aside from a few nut jobs, I don't see too many Christians on a Jihad because they don't get what they want in life, or because things don't go their way or think they have been oppressed. What in Islam justifies this behavior? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted January 20, 2002 Share Posted January 20, 2002 artie....i wasn't painting an extreme. my point was that our country certainly has a religious foundation and that our leadership often refers to religious, principly Christian ideals, when having to make the "tough decisions" (like going to war). harry s truman made a decision based on many factors, among which, i am confident, numbered his religious thoughts vis right and wrong. my point was that a nation with an ostensible religious foundation (primarily Christian) for sanctioning many of its moral decisions (granted greatest good and natural rights have also played prominent roles) hasn't refrained from killing people in very large numbers using very industrial techniques. putting it crudely, our chrisitianity doesn't appear to have gotten in the way of doing what, at the time, we thought had to be done. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 20, 2002 Share Posted January 20, 2002 Fansince, that's part of the foundation of some points I'm trying to make as well. Our country was founded on Christian beliefs. Those old, dead white guys that founded this country were all Christian. But having come from a country of religious persecution thenselves, when they drew up the Bill of Rights, they were all inclusive and at least tolerant of all religions. Where we have split from from the Islamic practice of religion is that while we have become more and more inclusive (hence Satan Worship, Waco fruitcakes, Wicca etc)and basically tolerate an "Anything goes" culture, Islam has stayed intolerant of other religions in it's practice.It basically says there is no other religion. Which is better? Who knows. If Christianity had stayed intolerent I doubt we'd have the coming out that we've had over the last twenty years. Indeed,a lot of things would be different. But get this. It's been stated in previous posts about how America had it coming, that our attitude is all wrong etc. Have we really been that bad, or is it just an excuse to b!tch and moan and justify your actions. If those people think we've been so bad to them, maybe they should sit back and thank allah or whoever that we are generally, a benevolent power. Because if we had a leader that wanted to go on the march, I think a lot of people would be sitting around saying" Remember the good ol' days when America used to sent us aid and food supplies and chase Serbians and Iraqis out of our lands because we couldn't do it ourselves." That is, if there were many people left. <br /> I'm not going to go much further into the geopolitics or theological side of things. That could take days and would probably accomplish very little to change any minds. But to get back to the point of the thread, if bin laden is dead, the only thing I'm sad about is the fact that I didn't get a chance to help. And there's no one to blame but himself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 20, 2002 Share Posted January 20, 2002 </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Originally posted by Kefka:<br /><strong>Hey Art, <br /><br />"It's their fault not ours...", what a bunch of b.s. This mindset is exactly whats wrong and got America in the position its it now. The truth blew-up in the face of America and its tasting what the Muslim world had been afflicted w/ for years. But whos crying for those victims of terrorism?<br /><br />Hey Art, I adhere to "that portion" of the text, and so do millions of Muslims worldwide. The portion which tells us to fight against those who agress and cause mischief in the land.<br /> <br /> [ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: Kefka ]</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Helvetica, sans-serif">Kefka, simply put, if you adhere to the portion of the text that calls for war against societies that are not Muslim, then I hope you are soon to appreciate the wrath of the anger this country rightfully feels and the revenge this country finally exacts. I hope you stand behind those misbegotten, cultish beliefs and you stand with those that stand against us to honor your beliefs.<br /><br />The United States, in the prevention of a war of conquest by Iraq and fear in Saudi Arabia of the same, were invited to protect Muslim lands, not to commit mischief. Your own words demonstrate clearly the differences between reason and evil. While we remain open to the world and the incorporation of all types of people, you view any trespass as mischief punished by a cultish religious war, as the Koran calls for.<br /><br />Trust me, it's your fault, not ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 20, 2002 Share Posted January 20, 2002 Fansince, I'm not sure what your point is. As a nation we have wrought great punishment upon people that have attacked us and we have used great measures to protect the freedoms associated with the democratic principle of living, but, neither fact is necessarily tied to any particular religious belief, nor is it prosecuted based upon God's word.<br /><br />I assume you must know the distinction here and are simply attempting to stir the pot. America will continue to kill many thousands of people using highly industrial means for the same reasons we always have. For the preservation of self and for the defense of our liberties. Not because God is whispering to us to do so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kefka Posted January 20, 2002 Share Posted January 20, 2002 Hi Art,<br /><br />"...were invited to protect Muslim lands...", thats a nice qoute. Maybe those hand-puppets in the royal family invited you to "protect" your precious oil, not the muslim people. Only reason the U.S. went in, you simply can't deny it. <br /><br />"...text that calls for war against societies that are not Muslim."<br />Wow, did I say that? Try putting some more words into my mouth.<br /><br />Anyhow, I sincerely believe justice will eventually prevail. Don't let your patriotism blind your view. Enough of this, time to watch Rams/Greenbay.<br /><br />Just ask this guy ---> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="rolleyes.gif" /><br /> <br /> [ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: Kefka ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 20, 2002 Share Posted January 20, 2002 Kefka, we went in to protect a country that was attacked in a war of conquest by another country. That action, if done ANYWHERE in the world, would bring a response by the U.S. at this point. That the action taken by Iraq also had the ability to alter the Middle East power base and allow a country like Iraq to dictate to the world through a control over oil, was also a factor in why we went in. Remember though, America has all the oil we could possibly want if we wanted to dig it up. So, if worse came to worse, we wouldn't need to go into the Middle East over oil needs here.<br /><br />Again, we were invited by the rulers of the nation to protect their lands from attack. We responded, protected their lands and repelled the power in Iraq out of the country they had occupied. If this is the mischief in which you refer, and the problem by which "millions" of Muslim people place blame on us, well, it doesn't change the fact that it's your fault, not ours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kefka Posted January 20, 2002 Share Posted January 20, 2002 thats nice art. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brave Posted January 20, 2002 Share Posted January 20, 2002 I don't wish to interject into this argument, but Imust say that one thing that burns the sh!t out of me is for someone to take sides AGAINST this country while living in it and enjoying the freedoms provided by the very forces that they rail against. Kefka, some of your responses seem to be inching in this direction.<br /><br />I'm a pretty cynical guy. Don't always think we, as a country, are right. Don't blindly agree with leaders. Blah, blah, blah. However, in a time of war ... especially a war started by the attacking of Amercia on our own soil, you are either awith us or against us. It really is that simple. If you want to talk trash about America, move to another country and do it from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Terry Posted January 20, 2002 Share Posted January 20, 2002 Art, you say:<br /><br />"But, I promise you, Terry, or Fansince, if you just use this phrase, "It's their fault, not ours," you'd understand this a lot better. We've nothing to apologize for and we should be far more active than we've been, because it's their fault, not ours."<br /><br />But that is in defense of Sarge, who said:<br /><br />"We are only worried (at least until Sept 11th) about our SUV's and our big houses and our stock portfolios. That is exactly the attitude, or he!!, let's just call it what it is, complacency, that allowed Sept 11th to happen."<br /><br />It seems to me like he's saying it IS our fault. <br /><br />I think you need to re-read his post and figure out what it is you're defending. It appears that in your zest to debate, you're trying to have it both ways. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Soliloquy Posted January 20, 2002 Share Posted January 20, 2002 "allowed to happen" is not identical to "caused to happen". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted January 20, 2002 Share Posted January 20, 2002 Terry, you are kickin' the crap outta me with that "Big house/SUV" quote of mine. Let me clarify on whom I place blame;<br /><br />1) Terrorist a$$holes<br />2) Terrorist a$$holes<br />3) Terrorist A$$holes<br />4) Terrorist a$$hole interpretation of a religion<br />5) Any religion that advocates actions like what <br /> happened on 11 Sept <br />5) Complacency here at home, brought on by 8 <br /> years of liberal policy here and abroad. <br /><br />Had we been paying attention duing those 8 years, we could've stopped those sh!theads before they did what they did. And make no mistake, no amount of talking or aid or whatever would have detered them from what they believed was their cause, so I see no other option but to eliminate them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted January 20, 2002 Share Posted January 20, 2002 I'm still trying to find that inclusive peaceful Islamic Nation.<br /><br />While I was stationed in Europe and deployed to the hotspots I couldn't find one.<br /><br />But I could find plenty of ones that are lawless and only understand getting kicked in the teeth.<br /><br />American born ciizens who embrace the Islamic faith trip me out just like our KMart Catholics.<br /><br />I can't see how a woman born here could embrace the religion if she went into those countries (my other half is Turkish and Native American).<br /><br />Then supposedly American Blacks are supposed to align themselves with these guys.<br /><br />Islam isnt a race as I told idiots who thought I would side with those fanatics.<br /><br />Let's not forget prior to this religion in those lands currently occupied by the likes of Saddam they did practice Demonic worship Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Art Posted January 20, 2002 Share Posted January 20, 2002 Terry, read Soliquy's response. That's all I'd say <img border="0" title="" alt="[smile]" src="smile.gif" /> .<br /><br />Kefka, it isn't nice in the slightest. It's simply true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryman of the North Posted January 20, 2002 Share Posted January 20, 2002 Navy, turkish chicks are hot theres a turkish hairdreeser in high level and she is smokin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CounterTre Posted January 20, 2002 Share Posted January 20, 2002 Let's just cut all the crap and go over there and make a bunch of glass fields. I agree with Bush's statements. You are either with us or against us in this war, there is no middle ground. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeSkin Posted January 20, 2002 Share Posted January 20, 2002 Today, I had the opportunity to visit a Jewish temple and a mosque in celebration of religious freedom week. I've never heard of it before, but my hometown (DeadFred) had the trollies running to different churches, and my wife and I went to a temple and a mosque, as I already said.<br /><br />In case you've never visited a mosque, it's just as room with a carpet on the floor. And yes, it was as segregated/sexist, whatever you want to call it as the Islamic religion is made out to be. Men entered through a door on the right side of the church, and women at the left. Women had to wear scarves over their hair and they also had to sit in the back of the room when the men prayed. <br /><br />Nonetheless, I found myself identifying with Islam much more than Judaism, even though I am a dedicated Christian. Jesus is actually a prophet in the Islamic religion. They were very kind and welcoming, while the Jewish people constantly referred to Christians as "The Jesus People," which kind of irked me. <br /><br />I just can't believe that there can be peaceful muslims, such as the ones I met today, and then people like Osama running around. Their worship is very different than Christianity, but it is practically the same religion. Why can't we all just get along? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted January 20, 2002 Share Posted January 20, 2002 One thing that makes me think is the Orientals who will risk death and a lifetime of servitude to come to my country.<br /><br />Then you hear spoiled ignorant people saying BS like what has the US done for me while answering their cell phone or comparing their paint job on their Blazer to my Navigator.<br /><br />As I tell these beeotches, unless you have served your country or have at the least travelled outside the US to see how lucky you have it they should shut the Eff up.<br /><br />My time in showed me two types of terrorist type bast@rds we had to deal with, Ragheads and Commies.<br /><br />And in both cases liberal media and liberal democrats were sympathetic to both.<br /><br />How else can you explain a Commie being man of the year Gorbacev (alledgely an ambassador of peace yrah right) and it took a public outcry from Bin Laden being one this past year.<br /><br />And yes the only reason we put up with the BS rom the Saudis and OPEC nations in general is oil, DUH<br />NewsFlash.<br /><br />Tree hugging, Gaea worshipping, liberal, spineless, idiots known as democrats make it seem like we are committing mass murder if we drill for our own oil so we don't have thatmany options yet.<br /><br />Wanna bet the last thing the world wants is the US not needing them for energy resources? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
brandies Posted January 20, 2002 Share Posted January 20, 2002 Lets get down to basics,<br /> How many compensary draft choices do we get from this situation? Geez, could you just think about living in Afgahnastan the last 20 years. I mean every average Joe has a blown off leg and a wife with utiran (sp) cancer.<br /> <br /> [ January 20, 2002: Message edited by: Riggens ] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted January 20, 2002 Share Posted January 20, 2002 Depending on the sect, Jews segregate also and the Mosques I've seen in Sicily/Bosnia and Egypt were beautiful.<br /><br />Religion here in the US is like Cognac, good in moderation, however in places overseas there is an overindulgance Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OrangeSkin Posted January 20, 2002 Share Posted January 20, 2002 NavyDave - I couldn't agree with you more. I was actually considering moving to upstate New York where a liberal is looked at like he's a friggin martian. <br /><br />Clinton did more to ruin the intelligence and the military in 8 years than the Soviets did in 30, and anybody that can prove me wrong, please do so.<br /><br />After the embassy bombings, Clinton bombed a few tents, and spoke of our military might. Thank God we finally have a real president in office who knows what our military can truly do, when it's not held back and run from Washington by a liberal. <br /><br />I shudder to think what would happen if Gore was in office, because we'd probably be a smoking hole in the ground right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted January 20, 2002 Share Posted January 20, 2002 art....a little stirring perhaps...... the deeper issue is that we don't execute any of these missions/actions without a full consideration of all the political ramifications, legalities, AND moral constraints. in fact, the ebb and flow in the moral edge to our actions in the international arena has been among the more interesting political battles waged in this country over the last 20-25 years. my point originally was that this calculus has had religious paramters (inputs if you will) subtly embedded in the consciences of our decision-makers and the histories of our institutions - not that we are a state guided by religious principles, but that religion, and judaeo-christian religions in particular, have played a role in bounding how we approach moral problems (pretty wide bounds as the originally sarcastic comment suggested). and yes, the right to self-defense is firmly rooted as a primary principle. however, it is nevertheless of interest to ask: what is tolerable? what are the bounds to self defense (i.e., what are permissable actions in self-defense)? and on what basis do we draw these bounds?<br /><br />let me paraphrase a traditonal problem examined by the great american philsopher robert nozick in "anarchy, state, utopia": suppose you are at risk and the threat can be taken out, but the threat is protecting him/herself with a human shield. what is the correct course to follow? what is the "right" thing to do? this is a tricky problem - especially for a society like ours in which we are all "created equal". the whatever it takes to defend myself school opens up a lot of doors that one might not necessarily want to pass through. <br /><br />one can't have it both ways: argue that we, as a nation, represent a core set of values that define us and guide our actions, and then abrogate those values in the name of self preservation. that is a non sequitor.<br /><br />these are precisely the sorts of issues our leaders, inside and outside the military, struggle with all the time. i have seen this in action at many levels. religion isn't the final or even primary arbiter, but the men and women making decisions have a conscience and a morality. this morality is often shaped by religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KevinthePRF Posted January 20, 2002 Share Posted January 20, 2002 I say now, please move this topic/topics to the bleachers. The ignorance started in this thread has only escalated since my absence, not diminished. <br /><br />It all boils down to generalizations. Sickening generalizations. <br /><br />A muslim flew a plane into the WTC, so lets blow up the muslims, not the terrorists, the muslims. They deserve it, all of them. Period. <br /><br />A few of you don't think muslims flew a plane into the WTC, a few of you think Clinton did it. The present pictures they show of him today are just some photoshop magic, and he was flying that thing right into it.<br /><br />Usual moral and political(one in the same to some) are rearing their ugly heads, this isn't even about Osama anymore, my fault I guess. <br /><br />I vote to move it to the bleachers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted January 20, 2002 Share Posted January 20, 2002 Well, this thread has certainly cheered me up after a full day of lopsided playoff football. Here's a crazy idea: Let's move it to the bleachers now, seeing as it's wildly OT and four pages long. <img border="0" title="" alt="[smile]" src="smile.gif" /> Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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