Our Dline Sucks...again

[Prosperity]

Nathanial Adibi will be a solid 5th Rd. draft pick, problem with him is that all the talent I have seen from him comes in splashes, he has a bad habit of just dissappearing sometimes, but hey its just a 5th Rd. pick.

[Ghost of]

Originally posted by chet06

Last year's Bills D line sucked if I remember right but they finished #2 cause of his schemes. Lets not panick..maybe we get a gem in 5 and 6.

Aaron Schobel(double digit sacks) Denney(ok, mediocre but probably better than Renaldo Wynn) Pat Williams and Sam Adams is NOT a sucky D-line. It's about two-three notches better than ours.

[donnyg]

I think we should wait and see what they can do with their D-line and new coordinator. I remember when we picked up Wilkinson and Stubblefield and thought no one can run against us now..... you know how that turned out.

[jbooma]

don't look now, we got a TE

[terpfan]

what about isaac sopoaga, dt, from hawaii? i think he was a second to third round prospect and he's still around... maybe we could somehow land him.

i am kind of worried about the defensive line, and although i like cooley, i'm not sold on the pick. is he really that much better than rasby, sellers, and kozlowski? would he help the team more than sopoaga or lavalais?

[Utah]

I guess I am just floored with the fact that this team with this new coaching staff hasn't even hit the field yet and we have people who are certain that we have not made any improvement.

Its not rose-colored glasses folks, its called faith. Have some, just a little. Its OK.

[Yomar]

Philip Daniels/Upshaw, Wynn, Cornelius Griffin and Holsey

You can call it having faith in the coaching staff or whatever, but any coach worth a lick of salt will tell you you can't win without talent.

As far as the TE Cooley, I'll reserve judgement till I see him play, no one that would have made that big of a difference on the DLine out there anyway at this point

[Art]

Originally posted by Yomar

Philip Daniels/Upshaw, Wynn, Cornelius Griffin and Holsey

You can call it having faith in the coaching staff or whatever, but any coach worth a lick of salt will tell you you can't win without talent.

As far as the TE Cooley, I'll reserve judgement till I see him play, no one that would have made that big of a difference on the DLine out there anyway at this point

Yomar,

The defensive line has two first round picks, a second round pick and FIVE guys who have been starters the majority of their NFL careers when healthy. There's enough talent there. Now there's even coaching to go along with it.

It should help. But, there's no denying the "talent" of the guys there, considering relatively large draft investments in three of them, and the fact that five of them have been starters in the NFL most of their careers. This is very different than tight end where we don't have a single guy who has been a primary starter for any sustained period of time and at safety where we had a sixth-round pick who'd gotten his first sustained starting experience in his fourth season and an unrestricted free agent rookie who the team has been seeking to replace for some time.

There was substantially more "talent" at defensive line than tight end or safety on this team. Now, that's somewhat closer.

[Yomar]

Then we should bring back Bruce Smith, he was a 1st round pick and a certain first ballot Hall of Famer so he must be really talented

[Ford]

Yomar's points are legit. We can't just blindly be happy and take no notice of the glaring shortfallings on the D-line. I hate cliches, but the game is won in the trenches .. and as we've seen in recent years, it doesn't matter who your back 7 are if the d-line can't do it's job. I find it hard to believe Gibbs would completely ignore the issue .. so maybe he's planning on pursuing some avenue I don't see .. but I am shocked at the lack of attention paid to the d-line. Griffin was a solid pickup but not someone who will bolster a d-line .. phillips doesn't seem to be on a different level than Wynn or Upshaw .. which isn't encouraging.

[Art]

Originally posted by Ford

Yomar's points are legit. We can't just blindly be happy and take no notice of the glaring shortfallings on the D-line. I hate cliches, but the game is won in the trenches .. and as we've seen in recent years, it doesn't matter who your back 7 are if the d-line can't do it's job. I find it hard to believe Gibbs would completely ignore the issue .. so maybe he's planning on pursuing some avenue I don't see .. but I am shocked at the lack of attention paid to the d-line. Griffin was a solid pickup but not someone who will bolster a d-line .. phillips doesn't seem to be on a different level than Wynn or Upshaw .. which isn't encouraging.

No one would recommend you be blind to anything, except, of course, you, Ford, and those who share your view. Apparently the "glaring" nature of our weakness on the defensive line has caused blindness in you. You are blind to the fact that for as glaring as the problems are, no one in the existing power structure of the organization agrees with you.

You are blind to the fact that three of four spots project to be better than they were last year through additions and that more may come. You are blind to the fact that the scheme has altered so the defensive line no longer must be the strongest portion of the defense as much of the guessing will be removed from the equation for the players we do have.

While you are shocked by the lack of attention given the defensive line, you are blind to the substantial attention devoted to the defensive line that has brought in two new players and makes plans on the return of a third new player. You have been blinded to the fact that we have five guys who've been starters when healthy in this league for most of their careers along the defensive line.

Even if we don't add anyone of note here, these are all meaningful cures to blindness. So, while I and others continue to agree that all is not perfectly well with the defensive line and more will need to be done to feel comfortable here -- which demonstrates some degree of vision and lack of blindness -- your position as others continues to make utterly dumb statements like we've done nothing to improve a position we clearly have.

Until you are willing to give a nod to that improvement, your position lacks credibility. You can agree more needs to be done and not enough has been done without lying. As that's a possibility here, why is it that so few of you who are so worried about the defensive line demonstrate you can accomplish this?

[Yomar]

Originally posted by Art

No one would recommend you be blind to anything, except, of course, you, Ford, and those who share your view. Apparently the "glaring" nature of our weakness on the defensive line has caused blindness in you. You are blind to the fact that for as glaring as the problems are, no one in the existing power structure of the organization agrees with you.

You are blind to the fact that three of four spots project to be better than they were last year through additions and that more may come. You are blind to the fact that the scheme has altered so the defensive line no longer must be the strongest portion of the defense as much of the guessing will be removed from the equation for the players we do have.

While you are shocked by the lack of attention given the defensive line, you are blind to the substantial attention devoted to the defensive line that has brought in two new players and makes plans on the return of a third new player. You have been blinded to the fact that we have five guys who've been starters when healthy in this league for most of their careers along the defensive line.

Even if we don't add anyone of note here, these are all meaningful cures to blindness. So, while I and others continue to agree that all is not perfectly well with the defensive line and more will need to be done to feel comfortable here -- which demonstrates some degree of vision and lack of blindness -- your position as others continues to make utterly dumb statements like we've done nothing to improve a position we clearly have.

Until you are willing to give a nod to that improvement, your position lacks credibility. You can agree more needs to be done and not enough has been done without lying. As that's a possibility here, why is it that so few of you who are so worried about the defensive line demonstrate you can accomplish this?

Germans?

Forget it, he's rolling

[Art]

Originally posted by Yomar

Germans?

Forget it, he's rolling

This is the message board equivalent to sticking your tongue out at me Yomar. When you get into debates in which you have precious little to say to begin with, you always wind up playing cute since you have nothing else to add, yet most let out your frustration.

Maybe if you at least stick your thumbs in your ears and wiggle your fingers while sticking your tongue out at me, you might move me in some way. Give it a shot.

[Mad Mike]

Yomar.

Is Gibbs stupid?

If you answered yes, explain yourself. If you answered no, move on to the next question.

Is Gibbs freaking out about the D line?

If you answered yes, explain yourself. If you answered no, move on to the last question.

If Gibbs isn't stupid, and he isn't worried, why are you?

[Yomar]

Art, I have no idea what the hell you are talking about, repeating the word blind 9 times in one post, you have a habit of piroeting down strange tangential paths that I have no interest in. Your main point as far as I can tell is that you think we have talented players on the DLine who have been misused because they have been told to read and react instead of attack. I disagree with this point, I think the fundamental shortcoming of our DLine is talent. How much further you want to take the conversation I'm not sure but merely citing the draft positions of Wynn, Daniels, Griffin and Upshaw is not what I consider a serious approach to the question of our DLine's talent level.

[Yomar]

Originally posted by Mad Mike

Yomar.

Is Gibbs stupid?

If you answered yes, explain yourself. If you answered no, move on to the next question.

Is Gibbs freaking out about the D line?

If you answered yes, explain yourself. If you answered no, move on to the last question.

If Gibbs isn't stupid, and he isn't worried, why are you?

No Gibbs is not stupid, although I am not ready to concede that he is a genius at everything he does.

Is Gibbs freaking out about the DLine? I have no idea...but he should be concerned about it

[Yomar]

I also know that you will post until you are blue in the face, winning a debate by attrition if nothing else, I however have no interest in winning a debate on a football message board, I just stick around if the conversation is constructive or engaging. I make an effort to answer all serious questions, but I don't like going around in circles

[Art]

Wynn didn't become a bumb the moment he arrived in D.C. Upshaw didn't go from starting in the Super Bowl to a nobody the moment he arrived in D.C. Griffin didn't go from a four-year starter and best free agent defensive tackle in this class to an hopeless fraud just by being added to our roster. Daniels hasn't gone from key starter on two franchises to utter incompetent by signing here. Noble didn't go from hard working though average grunt to an inconsequential nobody by being on our roster.

The use of blind in the post to Ford may well apply to you as you've turned a blind eye to the obvious. There's a reason players here have been quality starters until the moment they arrived here. You seem to think it's in the water. I do believe a big reason it occurs is when you use players poorly and don't put them in the proper position to win.

You seem to have no comprehension as to the importance of quality coaching in the league. I have no similar lack of awareness that allows me to understand your position. It is mind boggling to me that you don't know how important good coaching is. That you don't know how crucial scheme is to developing ways to put your players into the best possible position to win football games.

Last year when Tampa went to three tight ends and ran the bootleg against us over and over, that wasn't because our defensive line sucked. It was because, as the players stated, they had not practiced against that look and didn't know what they were supposed to do in a complex defense to stop it.

Surprisingly even after that success enjoyed by Tampa, we didn't practice against those sets all of the following week and Buffalo used them effectively against us. This is coaching. The exploits we've seen have almost entirely been based on coaching. Though I don't LIKE the scheme we've run, the reason we have been the No. 4, No. 10 and No. 5 defensive team prior to last year with less talent in at least two of those years is because good coaching puts players in the right position to make plays.

We didn't drop down to 25th or whatever because we lost Gardener. We dropped to 25th because once the first round of coaching tape went through the league, teams swallowed our offense whole and exploited our defense entirely and we had no adjustments to get out of it.

The reason an attention to detail and game planning is meaningful is because it puts players where they need to be to stop teams. Coaching matters in football on game day like no other sport. I get this. You clearly don't.

Let me just let you in on a little secret. First, I doubt we'll have a great defense this year because it takes time to learn new systems and to play them effectively. But, if we do learn fast enough and we're suddenly stopping the run and hitting QBs, it won't be because our defensive line suddenly got more talented.

Just like the Dallas line didn't go from weak in 2002 to strong in 2003 on the basis of talent. Scheme matters.

Eventually the whole of the fan universe will recognize that. Until they all do, I get to keep telling those that don't about it until they figure it out. That's what my main point is.

For example, did you read what Williams said about offensive formation? He said whenever a team lines up in a formation there are always strengths that team will go to based on formation. The formation always dictates the strength of a play. Williams says how he approaches defense is to play those strengths. If a specific formation lends itself to a run to the right, his defense will play that run. If it lends itself to a slant, he'll play the slant. He'll take what the strength of the formation dictates forcing the offense to go to things they aren't used to doing. Running to the left instead of the right or throwing a fade instead of a slant.

If teams beat you doing that which they don't do well, they deserve it and are better than you. If they beat you doing exactly what you know they are going to do, then you've been coached poorly. That was the problem we had last year. It may be one this year. If it's not, we'll be fine. And we won't have been endowed with any new talent.

[Art]

Originally posted by Yomar

I also know that you will post until you are blue in the face, winning a debate by attrition if nothing else, I however have no interest in winning a debate on a football message board, I just stick around if the conversation is constructive or engaging. I make an effort to answer all serious questions, but I don't like going around in circles

Ahh, so here is where you are trying to beg off of a conversation because you have no strength? Understood. You may go.

[Yomar]

Wynn is exactly what he was in Jacksonville, we overpaid for him and now our DLine is suffering the consequences

can you just give me an executive summary?

[Yomar]

actually Art I was being completely sincere and not trying to beg off a "conversation" if thats what you call this

Your point is the same, scheme matters

yes scheme matters, but talent matters more and we don't have any

[Mad Mike]

Originally posted by Yomar

No Gibbs is not stupid, although I am not ready to concede that he is a genius at everything he does.

Is Gibbs freaking out about the DLine? I have no idea...but he should be concerned about it

Well I think it is safe to assume that Gibbs knows more about building a winning team than anyone on this board and he wanted Taylor and Cooley. That tells me he clearly is not as concerned as you.

You really need to get a grip there buddy.

Relax, have a beer, and have a little faith.

[Art]

Originally posted by Yomar

actually Art I was being completely sincere and not trying to beg off a "conversation" if thats what you call this

Your point is the same, scheme matters

yes scheme matters, but talent matters more and we don't have any

Yomar,

Dallas was 5-11, 5-11 and 5-11.

They added Newman at corner as an improvement and lost Hardy and Noble as starters in decline. Offensively they started largely in tact as well making inconsequential changes like Young for Page and improving some with Anderson. They went 10-6.

This was not a team transformed by talent. It was not a team that went from No. 18 to No. 1 in total defense because of an influx of talent. It improved because of a radically different scheme Parcells allowed Zimmer to employ. It was a team that took teams by surprise and suddenly started winning games.

There is no more clear example of how important scheme is and how scheme and coaching matter MORE than individual talent. There's a reason teams are capable of winning in this league without Pro Bowlers at every position. That is what you apparently feel is necessary. It isn't. The Redskins are as complete a team as there is in the league in terms of having limited weaknesses and a large number of strengths.

If this team happened to be in place and this was the second or third year of the Gibbs return, I'd be predicting a great year. As it is, I predict a softer one. The sad part is if that happens you'll simply say it's because the defensive line sucks and I'll know it was because the team didn't learn the scheme fast enough to play better.

[Old Glory]

Some of you guys just don't get it.

Every year for the last 4 years running you use the same excuse. "THERE WAS NO ONE WORTHY OF SELECTING FOR THE D-LINE"

That's horse crap.

Wilfolk would have been great for us to put right next to Griffin. He was good enough for the Patriots!!!

We have no one other then Griffin on the D-line. Daniels is garbage and a journeyman at best.

When we are getting ran over by Buckhalter and we can't stop the run, you won't think so highly of the Taylor selection.

[Art]

Originally posted by Old Glory

Some of you guys just don't get it.

Every year for the last 4 years running you use the same excuse. "THERE WAS NO ONE WORTHY OF SELECTING FOR THE D-LINE"

That's horse crap.

Wilfolk would have been great for us to put right next to Griffin. He was good enough for the Patriots!!!

We have no one other then Griffin on the D-line. Daniels is garbage and a journeyman at best.

When we are getting ran over by Buckhalter and we can't stop the run, you won't think so highly of the Taylor selection.

The mistakes I think most of us agree the team has made in recent years have not been mistakes in taking Arrington, Samuels, Gardner, Ramsey, Coles and now Taylor with our first pick. These are all very smart, core moves to have made. The real problem is having taken guys like Betts over Weaver. Or, last year taking Dockery over Eason. Now, it turns out Dockery worked out ok and we certainly didn't miss out on a dominating player in the second round along the line by picking Betts.

Williams strikes me as a coach who will stop the run even if it means sacrificing the pass. He will put eight men in the box which we've very rarely done the last decade. I suspect that will benefit us in stopping the run even if I was playing the defensive line.

Next year almost certainly has to be the year we find a way to acquire some young defensive linemen in the draft, but, even that can't be said to be certain. If we lose Smoot we may have to go corner. Need can't dictate what you do if value is there. We haven't been in position to take a guy you knew was going to be a good pick.

It's not like we had a choice between Julius Peppers or Ladell Betts. When you look at previous drafts, it's really hard to find out who we missed out on. Go back and look yourself.