Ralph peters: The Failure of Arab Civilization

[thew]

Ok... I'll let that pass

But its not the the Islamist regime encourages people to be creative, there is so much censoring that people basically are forced to be creative in making movies so that the plot has actual meaning without violating any laws.

In Saudi they love American movies. When you come to a love sceen they sometimes use hand pupets to show what's going on...... I thought that was creative. Not sure Speilberg would approve though..

[Prosperity]

In Saudi they love American movies. When you come to a love sceen they sometimes use hand pupets to show what's going on...... I thought that was creative. Not sure Speilberg would approve though..

I am not sure if I believe that [the hand puppets part]

[BurgundyBomber]

Great thread, from an education standpoint, but what a lousy purpose. Geez, I don't which is sadder, sarge asking for what a 'culture' or 'race' has contributed since or during a particular period or thew for feeling compelled to answer.

As if cultures or races need to contribute to provide value or justification to exists or if thew's failure to provide such constitutes a greater failing on Persian culture.

So thew produces a TV show, three movies, and an astronaut and all is well. by that yardstick Michael Crichton has 'contributed' more than any culture before the 1800's! Really couldn't make a more bizarre thread if I tried...

Obviously it's important to note which cultures provided important concepts that we all enjoy now - I think principally to understand the value of diversity. When introduced, I sure few thought much of the concept of zero, but its impossible to overstate it's importance now.

(I'm glad I don't have to balance my checkbook in Roman numerals). Factors like political/religious oppression, economics, etc. are going to impact whether a prople have time for thinking after finding something to eat. Trying to make judgements beyind that is a perilous venture, because judging going to be based on your (Western) standards. Imagine if we were having this discussion in Iran or China or Algeria...

And if you must compare cultures, just don't add the positives, subtract the negatives. Aztecs might have ate people, but they didn't inject people with syphillis to see what would happen or give us "Who Wants to Marry a Midget"(US), or practice female circumcision (popular in some Muslim cultures), or have a rigidly enforced caste system (India)...

[Prosperity]

Originally posted by BurgundyBomber

As if cultures or races need to contribute to provide value or justification to exists or if thew's failure to provide such constitutes a greater failing on Persian culture.

:gus:

[Ghost of]

BB

THAT is your first post?

Obviously Liberty pointed out a bigtime error on your part, once again mistaking Arab for Persian culture/ethnicity.

But beyond that, the US government did not inject anyone with syphilis, the doctors in charge of the Tuskeegee experiment simply did not treat the infected men.

But the point of the thread is exploring why Arab civlization seems to be so brutal and primitive today. Yes, India has a caste system that still dominates much of the society. But then, Hindus aren't all over the world killing everyone who opposes them or spread an ideology with which local adherents do this.

I could bring up the Malay Muslims in Thailand who tried to kill people in a planned attack(those damn BUDDHISTS!) but were killed in large numbers, instead. Or the Arabs who, after killing and enslaving black Christians, have now moved on to black Muslims! Or the recent(but part of the an ongoing conflict) spate of attacks by Laskar Jihad in Malaku where Christians' homes are being burned to the ground and people are being macheted to death.

I could go on--and granted, what Malaysian Muslims do is not completely linked with Arab culture, but I am starting to think that there is a meme spreading like a virus throughout the world and it's an Arab meme spread via the host of Islam.

Hell, in Somalia, we have parents not letting their kids get gift packages from Christians overseas because they think it's an attempt to convert their children.

I can't even imagine a more hateful ideology that masquerades as religion. And since this ideology is descended and glorifies the Arab people, I think it is legit to link the two.

[thew]

Just when I thought I had put this bad boy to rest with a little hummor it's revived...

So thew produces a TV show, three movies, and an astronaut and all is well.

This thread has been so intense and offensive with the goal posts continuously retreating I thought a little humor would illistrate how silly the thought process had become. I mean come on .. I dream of Jennie and Shack?

As if cultures or races need to contribute to provide value or justification to exists

I agree with that. But even on a more basic level I don't think we fully understand how cultures interact and play off of one another to create the imbalances and opprotunities which result in the great leaps forward.

For example Franch inventers failed to create a working flying machine in the late 1800's. But the money which they offered inspired the Wright brothers to create their machine. And the money which the French ended up paying the Wright brothers went back into improvements for what is widely regarded as an American invention.

The American Linburg was the first to fly across the Atlantic but he did so as part of a French competion for who could be the first to do it. Would he have tried if the competition hadn't existed. unlikely, since all his financiers in the city of St. Lewis were focused on the competion and the noteriaty of that competion.

the US government did not inject anyone with syphilis, the doctors in charge of the Tuskeegee experiment simply did not treat the infected men.

The doctors had a cure. They knew penicilin would cure that desease but rather than cure them they let the desease run it's course in those black men so they could publish the results. It was imoral and your symantical correction doesn't make the crime any less abhorant.....

Another one would be the American Scientists who fed retarted children radioactive material in their cerial so they could study the results without the knowledge of their parents. It just goes to show you their are plenty of sick f*ck's in America too.....

American history is full of Great men who made great contributions as we learn in our schools. Unfortunately it's also full of evil men who did terrible things because the times they thought justified it.

On a more positive not I remember the story of Thomas Morgan the Nobel Prize winning American Geneticist in 1933. He was one of the foremost Geneticists in the world in the 20's to the mid 40's. When it came to light what the Nazi's were doing throughout Europe the war department contacted him to discuss what the consequences where for America falling behind in the field of genetics to the Germans. When their experiments where detailed to him he responded that the Germans were not doing anything of value in the field of genetics and that human beings were totally unsuited for genetic experiments as the Germans were pursuing. Morgan said he had learned more from fruit flies than the Germans were ever likely to learn from experimenting on people. One can guess on the dark book of possibilities which Mr. Morgan and his clout closed that day.

[SoCalSkins]

Originally posted by Liberty

Its ironic really, most Iranians hate Arab culture, yet we are always being mistaken for Arabs. Thus is the life of an ex-pat.

That is probably one of the most annoying things that upsets me about the media, when Iranians are referred to as Arabs, particularly in national news coverage. An interesting fact is that Jews are very closely related to Arabs; Persian and Arabs come from very different races and origins. Both Arabs and Jews are Semitic people, yet the media refers to anti-Jewish sentiments among Arabs as anti-Semitic, which is also an incorrect use of the term. If you guys have seen House of Sand and Fog, you will see a few scenes of the dislike Persians have for Arabs.

By the way Liberty, I thought I was the only die-hard Persian Skins fan. Do you remeber when Shar Pourdanesh played for us?

[Ghost of]

SoCal

One problem is that, while Semitic does refer to Arabic, Hebraic(and other) ethnic groups, the term anti-Semitic has ALWAYS BEEN used in the context of anti-Jewish views.

It was invented by someone who used the term to soften the impact of being an anti-Jewish organization. Can't recall his name off the top, but I can assure you that you can put aside your frustration with the use of the term--it's quite accurate as anti-Semitic began as and has continued to mean anti-Jewish.

[Ancalagon the Black]

Ghost is right. Whatever the etymology, "the dictionary" now has anti-Semitic to mean "anti-Jewish." OSF's rantings to the contrary aside.

[Prosperity]

Originally posted by SoCalSkins

That is probably one of the most annoying things that upsets me about the media, when Iranians are referred to as Arabs, particularly in national news coverage. An interesting fact is that Jews are very closely related to Arabs; Persian and Arabs come from very different races and origins. Both Arabs and Jews are Semitic people, yet the media refers to anti-Jewish sentiments among Arabs as anti-Semitic, which is also an incorrect use of the term. If you guys have seen House of Sand and Fog, you will see a few scenes of the dislike Persians have for Arabs.

By the way Liberty, I thought I was the only die-hard Persian Skins fan. Do you remeber when Shar Pourdanesh played for us?

Shar Pourdanesh was one year before my time. While I know of him I don't remember him playing in games.

btw I saw House of Sand and Fog, good movie, but very sad.

[BurgundyBomber]

Ghost,

Once again, you cite Muslim terrorist activities and then use this to justify Islam as a 'hateful ideology'. If you want a hateful ideology, you don't need to cast your net so far, why not ask Timothy McVey (sp?) what religion he ascribes to? Or the communities of pure-blooded, Goverment-hatin', white supremacist folks living in Montana, Utah, and SC? 'God-fearing' Christian types.

To play your game, I could mention the Catholic Church's role in the Inquistion and their suppression of scientific knowledge through the 17th century. But I won't, or did I?

Hate and stupidity know no religious or cultural boundaries. During religous turmoil after the British left India, Muslims AND Hindus slaughtered each other!

Imagine you were living in a poor country, and missionaries came to visit you and your family. They're offering food, but there's a sermon you got to listen to first. Do you trade your eternal existence on a sandwich? Perhaps you do, but I respect their fear, because they have to make choices about what/who to believe. And frankly the first set of strangers who arrived from the US may not have made a favorable impression.

And as for the Tuskegee Experiment, I'm sure you have fond feelings for a doctor who 'simply' did not treat you for a disease to see what would happen. It's that kind of moral ambivalence...well I just hope you were having a bad day.

[Ghost of]

Dude, why is it you guys cannot let go of the Inquisition? Why is it you refer back to something hundreds of years ago when EVERY civilization was engaged in barbarity?

I'm talking NOW. I'm talking about WORLDWIDE. You think it's a coinicidence that the common element in those cases is Islam and its followers? Really? LOL How the heck can you compare pockets of racist Christian Identity types in Utah or Idaho, rarely linked to violent murders, with a worldwide phenomenon of murder, decapitations, slaughter, mutiliation, torture and slavery? WTHeck is wrong with YOU?!

This is like saying that because the US government had the Tuskeegee Exp, that there is NO difference between the Soviet Union, the Khmer Rouge and the US. Go to hell, if you think that way. That is strictly YOUR problem and the problem of other apologists for evil or Western Civ-bashers. Frankly, the only time I DO see any moral absolutism from some of your kind is WHEN you get to bash the West or America.

As for "hateful ideology" this is confirmed in its texts and UNLIKE Judaism which has examined away those portions of its texts, the Koran exists as the perfectly transmuted word of Allah..it's not the same thing at all.

I was correcting someone on the Tuskeegee experiment and the facts of the matter. If one is going to ignore the facts then one can start reasonably drawing all kinds of conclusions that don't jibe with reality or rationality. Has nothing to do with moral ambivalence and only you could read ambivalence into that.

IMO, there are far worse incidences of government sanctioned testing(like with radiation and forced sterlization) that exceeded the immorality of Tuskeegee.

[bird_1972]

Originally posted by Ghost of Joe Bibbs

Dude, why is it you guys cannot let go of the Inquisition? Why is it you refer back to something hundreds of years ago when EVERY civilization was engaged in barbarity?

I'm talking NOW. I'm talking about WORLDWIDE. You think it's a coinicidence that the common element in those cases is Islam and its followers? Really? LOL How the heck can you compare pockets of racist Christian Identity types in Utah or Idaho, rarely linked to violent murders, with a worldwide phenomenon of murder, decapitations, slaughter, mutiliation, torture and slavery? WTHeck is wrong with YOU?!

This is like saying that because the US government had the Tuskeegee Exp, that there is NO difference between the Soviet Union, the Khmer Rouge and the US. Go to hell, if you think that way. That is strictly YOUR problem and the problem of other apologists for evil or Western Civ-bashers. Frankly, the only time I DO see any moral absolutism from some of your kind is WHEN you get to bash the West or America.

As for "hateful ideology" this is confirmed in its texts and UNLIKE Judaism which has examined away those portions of its texts, the Koran exists as the perfectly transmuted word of Allah..it's not the same thing at all.

I was correcting someone on the Tuskeegee experiment and the facts of the matter. If one is going to ignore the facts then one can start reasonably drawing all kinds of conclusions that don't jibe with reality or rationality. Has nothing to do with moral ambivalence and only you could read ambivalence into that.

IMO, there are far worse incidences of government sanctioned testing(like with radiation and forced sterlization) that exceeded the immorality of Tuskeegee.

Lets take a look at a sampling of atrocities committed in the 20th century, Mr Bibbs, shall we?

1) Khmer Rouge (1970s)- you alluded to this one. One of the largest massacres in the history of the modern world. Largely committed by a Buddhist nation

2) Soviet Union (1930s/40s)- sent dissenters by the thousands to die like dogs in the stalags of siberia. Athiests/Russian orthodox.

3) China (1960-1970s)- Cultural revolution. Mass murder/jailings of intellectuals in society, teachers, scientists, etc. The country is just now beginning to come to grips with this. Athiest/Buddhist.

4) Japan (1940s)- Rape of Nanking. Japanese soldiers raping and burning a large Chinese town to the ground during WW2. Considered one of the largest wholesale massacres of civilians during the war and one of the best examples of why there is still lingering animosity between the Chinese and Japanese to this day. Buddhist.

5) Israel (1980s/1990s)- War in Lebanon/incursion into Jenin. State sanctioned massacre of unarmed civilians in southern Lebanon with use of excessive force. In the case of Jenin, bulldozing and indiscriminate killing of scores of unarmed civilians in the name of battling terrorism. Jews.

6) Germany (1930s-40s)- Nazi deathcamps where scores of Jews, Gypsies, POWs were subjected to countless unspeakable atrocities. Catholic/Lutheran.

Now, Ghost, since you seem to think the Arabs are the only culture in the "modern" world capable of unspeakable and unjustified murder, please take a look at the above and tell me that ALL cultures and ALL societies if under the proper combination of external stressors isn't capable of barbarity. Wake up and turn of the Fox News channel. You might learn something thinking for yourself for a change.

[Riggo-toni]

Bird- The so-called Jenin massacre never happened. It was Palestinain propaganda. As for the slaughter in Sabraa and Shatila, the Israelis may have been complicit in their failure to intervene, but the massacre itself was carried out by Maronites. Nevertheless, Sharon et al certainly have blood on their hands for standing on the sidelines while knowing such a slaughter was taking place.

Interesting that you bring up Israel's alleged atrocities, but make no mention of Rwanda or Bosnia, both of which were far worse.

[Henry]

Originally posted by bird_1972

Lets take a look at a sampling of atrocities committed in the 20th century, Mr Bibbs, shall we?

1) Khmer Rouge (1970s)- you alluded to this one. One of the largest massacres in the history of the modern world. Largely committed by a Buddhist nation

2) Soviet Union (1930s/40s)- sent dissenters by the thousands to die like dogs in the stalags of siberia. Athiests/Russian orthodox.

3) China (1960-1970s)- Cultural revolution. Mass murder/jailings of intellectuals in society, teachers, scientists, etc. The country is just now beginning to come to grips with this. Athiest/Buddhist.

4) Japan (1940s)- Rape of Nanking. Japanese soldiers raping and burning a large Chinese town to the ground during WW2. Considered one of the largest wholesale massacres of civilians during the war and one of the best examples of why there is still lingering animosity between the Chinese and Japanese to this day. Buddhist.

5) Israel (1980s/1990s)- War in Lebanon/incursion into Jenin. State sanctioned massacre of unarmed civilians in southern Lebanon with use of excessive force. In the case of Jenin, bulldozing and indiscriminate killing of scores of unarmed civilians in the name of battling terrorism. Jews.

6) Germany (1930s-40s)- Nazi deathcamps where scores of Jews, Gypsies, POWs were subjected to countless unspeakable atrocities. Catholic/Lutheran.

So far this has been a very interesting debate, and I appreciate the contributions from both sides.

However, I ask you to strongly consider looking at that list again, and find the one country that has not ever brutally oppressed and subsequently murdered innocents by the millions, or even close to it. Find that one exception to your list, and perhaps it will shed some light on one of the reasons debates of this nature get so heated.

[bird_1972]

Originally posted by riggo-toni

Bird- The so-called Jenin massacre never happened. It was Palestinain propaganda. As for the slaughter in Sabraa and Shatila, the Israelis may have been complicit in their failure to intervene, but the massacre itself was carried out by Maronites. Nevertheless, Sharon et al certainly have blood on their hands for standing on the sidelines while knowing such a slaughter was taking place.

Interesting that you bring up Israel's alleged atrocities, but make no mention of Rwanda or Bosnia, both of which were far worse.

Untrue on Jenin. It was a massacre. You perhaps don't get all the information here due to a slant by the US media, but believe me very credible info sources such as the BBC world service DID report and confirm that. There is even a documentary by a British filmmaker called "Jenin Jenin". You should watch it.

I defer to you on the Lebanon thing.

My point here was to illustrate that all societies, even in modern times, are capable of massacre/mass murder.

To respond to Henry's message, the Khmer Rouge death toll was in the millions, I believe, as was the Nazi death camps.

[Funkyalligator]

The top three on that list were all committed by communists...Khmer Rouge were communist.....Stalin/Russia was communist and of course China was communist...not Buddhist.....communism doesn't even have a religion....so in a way they are indeed atheists.....

To include Israel on this list is stupid.........as for Lebanon...the Israelis didn't slaughter anyone...that was done by Christians......and by Muslims themselves........

The "Jenin Massacre"...please this was a propaganda ploy.....maybe...just maybe...100 people died....probably half of them terrorists that were hiding among the civilians.....get your facts right before you try stupid comparisons that make no sense whatsoever!!!!!

[brandies]

I agree with all of you.

[Henry]

Bird,

Khmer Rouge: In a country of six million, killed about three million.

Soviet Union: It will probably never be known just how many political purges were committed during the 30s in the Soviet Union, but estimates are generally in the 5-10 million range, unless of course, you're last name is Stalin.

China: Ongoing. You may deny millions have been purged during Communist China's reign. I wouldn't be shocked if it were so, however. You say the governement is finally coming to grips with it's oppressive tactics, yet they still executed an average of 15,000 citizens a year as recently as 2001 according to Amnesty International.

Nazi Germany: 12 million religiously diverse, politically opposed, and disabled citizens systematically murdered.

Rape of Nanking: During this one incident alone the estimated toll of Japanese-committed rapes and murders number around 250,000. Maybe they didn't hit 1 million total rapes and/or murders during the 15 years they were involved in WW2. But I doubt it.

And you equate the actions of the government of Israel with those of the above regimes?

Again, according to Amnesty International, not the most pro-Israel organization, the Jenin massacre (the Single worst Israeli action you could think of) resulted in 500 Palestinian deaths. AI even went so far as to qualify their claims with "although many Palestinians died during armed confrontations."

How can you lump Israel in with the most brutal, morally corrupt and downright evil goverments in world history? Are the Jews held up to such a higher moral standard that when they allegedly kill 500 (many other estimates have been far lower) in armed conflict, that's on the same level as some other country raping and murdering 250,000? Or gassing 12 million? I know critics of Israel hate to be branded Anti-Semetic (and I agree that not all of them are), but when I see such blatant double-standards applied, I can't help but ask myself why.

[bird_1972]

Henry,

I think you are missing my point. If including the Isrealis is distracting you from that, I apoligize. My point was that atrocities of ALL KINDS of people, not just people of the Islamic faith. I entered in the first several that came to mind, not paying attn to actual numbers. You are right that Jenin was far from millions are more like 100s to 1000s -

Alligator,

Most were innocents, by the way. Just for info.

Now, I do have to say I'm a bit dissappointed that you pointed out this discrepency of mine and even suggest I am antiSemitic for criticising Isreal, and at the same time 4 pages of text on this thread, at least 1/2 of it damning Arabs far more blatently and caustically, goes uncriticized. Despite my point being misinterpreted, I find this fact far more disturbing.

[Funkyalligator]

Actually....it depends on whose report you read...there has never been a satisfactory explanation.........I believe probably half were armed...and a lot of the civilians were killed because the armed ones were intermingled with those that weren't......not Israels fault there....

[Funkyalligator]

FYI I never said you were anti-semitic...just merely misguided..

[bird_1972]

Originally posted by Funkyalligator

FYI I never said you were anti-semitic...just merely misguided..

The Isreali example aside, what do you think of the global point I was trying to make? Im more interested in hearing what you think of that.

[Ghost of]

Jenin wasn't a massacre, it was one big lie---the Palies even held fake funerals to boost observable numbers of "Deaths."

The Israelis don't massacre people. That's up to your buddies who like to kill even their own people in the hundreds(but somehow those numbers go into the death toll count of this last outbreak of conflict) They don't target civilians and you know it.

The idea that you still believe that junk and you quote the BBC and that ridiculous "Jenin, Jenin" film shows that you are incapable of debating this topic with any objectivity.

And the problem with your list is that you included Israel for a reason. I'm not going to let you hijack this thread. We will STOP debating Israel, I don't care whether you bought the great lie of Jenin. BACK ON TOPIC.

You gave a nice list there, unfortunately you entirely miss the point. I didn't say "Islamic/Arabic culture is the only one capable of great violence." But you and Bomber and one or two others like to attack that strawman because you KNOW that's not what I'm saying.

1)Khmer Rouge--Buddhist? Well, they were COMMUNISTS. If you've read my posts before you've seen me compare Islamist and communist terrorists/regimes before.

2)Hutus slaughter 800K Tutsis(and Hutu moderates)--using racist propaganda for years and then whipping it up into a conflagration of mass slaughter---who said humans weren't capable of this? It has nothing to do with issues endemic to Arab/Islamic culture. Oops, you didn't even include this--had to get a hit in on the Jews, I know you did.

3)Stalin-Commie

4)Mao--Commie

5)Hitler--National Socialist, anti-Semitic, ethnocentrist genocidal maniac.

Hey, did you know that Mufti of Jerusalem aligned himself with the Nazis during WW II? Did you know he inspected a battalion of all-Muslim SS death troops? Why is the Hitler salute used to often by Arab militant groups? Why is the level of Jew-hatred(and west-hatred) found in the Palie TV and radio(and other Arab outlets) so close(or worse) to what the Nazis utilized?

AGAIn--I'm giving you what's going on NOW. What never STOPPED going on unless the Arab/Islamic forces were DEFEATED(like at Poitiers, referred to as Tours)

Where did the Eastern Christian population go? They could have existed as "dhimmis" yes? They did in fact, but over the years forced conversions and extermination(and the flight of those who can leave) kind of reduced Eastern Christianity to nothing but a whisper.

Where are the churches in Mecca or anywhere in Saudi Arabia? But there is at least one mosque in Rome.

I could go on but I don't like presenting too much disorganization in my posts(sometimes it's fun to do.)

The fact is, no one ever said only Arab/Islamic culture was capable of atrocity and oppression. What I DID say is that it seems to be a pattern, even MANDATED by their religion. And when a country does turn away from fundamentalism, like Turkey, they had to do it by force. A country like Algeria shows how difficult it is to even do that.

Islam is very much concerned with "submission" and with "ritual purity" to the point where the minutae of daily life are a concern of the Ayatollah or imam. This stands in contrast to the "loving" personal salvation that is not only a part of Christianity, but a part of Buddhism and the newest iterations of Judaism.

Sorry, genius, but when the holy books of a culture are to be viewed only as the infallible word of God and when it seeks to dominate every aspect of the believer's life, when the Ummah must be successful for the faith to be unshaken, when the believer is commanded to make war on everyone else--that results in exactly the kind of conduct I'm talking about. Just as communism's core tenets and NSocialism's NECESSARILY resulted in those atrocities and oppression.

Though I do think there is something particular about Arab culture itself, regardless of the belief in Islam, which lends itself to shame/pride-based pathologies as well as fantasy thinking.

BurgundyBomber--McVeigh was an atheist/agnostic. People continually make him into some kind of religious nut when he didn't believe in religion at all.

[Prosperity]

You guys have to realize that all cultures are not created equally. You don't have to make up reasons in your mind, you don't have to convince yourself that it Islamist/Arab culture has helped anyone. You are not a racist because you acknowledge that Islamist/Arab culture is anti-progress, anti-human rights, anti-intellectual, its just the truth. Don't point to Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia (or the Inquisition which happened hundreds of years ago) to justify Islamist/Arab culture of today.