Bailey: Pros and Cons (and possible replacements)

[method man]

Cons:

. Longest tenured skin along wit jansen. oh how sad it is

. No. 1 corner in the nfl

. team leader? (at least by example)

. does not miss many games

Pros:

. good FA market out there, so a good replacement may be signed

. trading bailey may acquire us picks or a player that can help to fill other needs

. smoot can be undisputed leader of secondary

. replacement may be better locker-room leader

. a winer is gone

alrite then.

i think that the best replacement for champ bailey in the FA market is goes 2 ways.

short term solution

sign troy vincent to replace champ. vincent may be servicable for a maximum of 3 years. by the time end of 3 years he will be 35. he had injury problems this past season. but he is considered by peers to still be one of the better cornerbacks in the nfl. he seems to be a good leader who is hungry to win a super bowl ring as evidenced by teh fact he has publicly stated that he would be willing to go to the panthers for less money. he is from the eagles so we would be taking away their top corner. he could lend help to gregg williams about the eagles d when we play them. however we will need to draft a replacement in a year or two to groom as a replacement for vincent. may not be smart because i think that smoot is a FA after next season. however gibbs may go this route because vincent is a veteran and may come sort of cheap becuz teams may shy away because of his injury problems. i predict we will be able to get this guy for a 3 year 6 mil contract or something. probably higher. i am really wary of the fact that he may now be very injury prone at this point in his career

long term solution

for those of you who are looking for a 5, 6- year solution at champs cornerback spot, look no further than fernando bryant or ahmed plummer. i say no to antoine winfield because he is going to get overpaid because all the top corners are getting franchised so he will be the top CB in FA this offseason. we may be able to get bryant or plummer for a reasonable price. neither of these guys are as good as vincent or bailey, but they are young and are good enough to be no. 1 corners in the nfl. i think bryant is teh better of the two but it may be due to him playing behind a very good dline in jax while plummer did not play on a great dline whose only good dline player is the aging bryant young and maybe that guy englesberger or something. we may be able to get either of these guys, especially plummer, for something like a 6 year- 20 mil contract with a 6 year signing bonus which is reasonable for a no. 1 CB. spending less on baileys replacement will enable us to spend more on our horrible dline and tight end corps in FA. a winfield without pass rush plays worse than plummer with a good pass rush. let us get that straight.

regardless i believe signing mario edwards to compete for the nickelback job is imperative. if he does not win the job he can at least be a dimeback. we would be getting a decent CB who we will be taking from a division rival. interesting possibility... we should try signing this guy to like a 2 year (buyout after year 1) 2 million dollar contract with a 500 k signing bonus.

so a CB corps of vincent/bryant/winfield, smoot, bauman, and edwards looks good to me.

if vincent goes and gets hurt as he will during the season, edwards looks like an adequate substitute at the no. 2 position while smoot shifts to the no.1

but remember guys. smoot will be a FA after the season. it is imperative we should sign this guy because he is a leader who loves playing for the skins.

[Dirk Diggler]

I'm from the school of thought that while Champ may very well be the best corner in the league, he's not a true playmaker in the Ray Lewis/Jason Taylor mold. He's never even had as good of a season as Ty Law has this past year and HE's currently the highest paid corner in the league. Therefore, I'd be disappointed to see the Skins give him a 50% larger signing bonus then Law got a few seasons ago because that's exactly what he's asking for - about 20 mill up front.

As far as his tenure goes, I could care less. Isn't Belicheck regarded as the top coach/talent evaluator in the biz right now? Didn't he cast a respected vet, Lawyer Milloy, off the boat as soon as his paycheck became larger than his productivity? Champ is asking for a check larger than his game tape says he should be getting. In the era of free agency, it's all about getting the most bang for your buck.

Which brings me to my replacement - Antoine Winfield. I love this guy as Champ-Lite. The only difference is, he can tackle. He hits like a ton of bricks in fact and is considered the top tackler among CBs in the NFL today. John Cooper said he was the best CB he's ever coached and that includes Shawn Springs, Ahmed Plummer, and Nate Clements.

Like Champ, he's often in great position yet rarely comes down with the picks. Still, he doesn't get beat for TDs hardly ever even though ball awareness is a concern. We should expect great coverage without great pick totals.

Also, he's ALREADY proven his ability to excel in Greg Williams defense. Just last year, the Bills were ranked #2 and Winfield was a big reason. The best part is, he'd probably cost half of what Champ would up front - about 10 mill.

[Art]

I think the Skins do covet Plummer. He's got a little better size than the rest of the young corner field and he's not been hurt or deteriorating like Shawn Springs has been. I also think Plummer is the best guy in coverage. He certainly seems to have better ball skills than the other guys we're talking about in terms of actively breaking things up.

Winfield is an interesting option because you know he can play for Williams at a high level. However, people have pointed out correctly that Williams was HYPER aggressive in Buffalo early and the corners there, including Winfield, got a little picked on. It wasn't until Lebeau brought some zone blitzing in and made the defense more complex that the defense there really fit the personnel better.

I think Plummer is a better overall player. But, I think Winfield will be the guy we go after because of the Williams connection. Another option at the edge of things is Sam Madison if he's released.

I think Vincent is still good enough to get a bigger contract than he should. I might think of Taylor though as a second option to go with Plummer or Winfield though as he'll come cheaper.

[Mountdrago]

Originally posted by Dirk Diggler

I'm from the school of thought that while Champ may very well be the best corner in the league, he's not a true playmaker in the Ray Lewis/Jason Taylor mold. He's never even had as good of a season as Ty Law has this past year and HE's currently the highest paid corner in the league.

While it certainly seems the Skins have little choice but to trade Champ at this point, I think it is a bit rediculous to say Champ is not a "playmaker" at his position. Any cover corner who can shut down an opponent's best receiver, day in and day out is outstanding. But to do that with ZERO, ZIPPO, NADDA pash rush topped nicely with generaous dose of inferior safety play is almost inhuman. Bailey is a playmaker and is simply the best at his position. Maybe we gotta let him go, but we shouldn't dilude ourselves into thinking he is less talented than he is.

[Art]

We had a lesser pass rush with Marty than we had last year and the defense was DOMINATING over the final 10 plus weeks. You know something else? I can think of at least five individual plays made on Bailey that had BAILEY made we legitmately would have won games we wound up losing. So, while I love Bailey as a top cover guy and appreciate how good he is, let's not pretend he's a better player than he's been.

[Gamebreaker]

You would have to watch ZERO games to say Champ can't tackle. Wow, the bias on this board never ceases to amaze me.

[Mountdrago]

Originally posted by Art

We had a lesser pass rush with Marty than we had last year and the defense was DOMINATING over the final 10 plus weeks. You know something else? I can think of at least five individual plays made on Bailey that had BAILEY made we legitmately would have won games we wound up losing. So, while I love Bailey as a top cover guy and appreciate how good he is, let's not pretend he's a better player than he's been.

I'm not certain how it makes a case that Bailey is a lesser player because the defense has had no pass rush 2 of the last three years. I certainly believe there is no other corner that has been near as good as Bailey since he came in the league that also had to deal with no pass rush and poor safety play. I do not think it is any contest.

I agree the defense under Shotty was good the last 10 games of that year, but that was due to smart coaching - good defensive design by little Marty and a ball control offense. And what's more, that defense would not have been as dominant without Bailey - especially since Smoot played so poorly.

You say you can remember 5 plays that Bailey should have made that would have won games for us. Perhaps. But you do not know that any other corner would have even been in position to make those plays or would have been able to play to the high level Champ did during the rest of those games that put us in position to be so close to winning. All the other top corners mentioned to replace Champ played on solid teams. I know its balsphemous, but you put Darrell Green in his prime in Champ's place last year, he would have given up so many plays that many would have been calling for Darrell's head.

I respect your opinon Art, but I think people here are diluding themselves by saying Bailey is not that good. To me, he is clearly that good and more. But what is importatnt to remember, is there is no requirement that you have the best player at a position, even cornerback (or quarterback), to win a title. We can make the team better by trading Bailey, it'll just take some work to do it and the first step is soberly understanding the value of the player you are giving up. Certainly getting Portis is a major step in making the team better. But let's see how pleased we are with Champ's replacement and hopefully everyone will judge that player by the same standards they are currently using to evaluate Champ.

[Art]

Originally posted by Gamebreaker

You would have to watch ZERO games to say Champ can't tackle. Wow, the bias on this board never ceases to amaze me.

Bias might be evident, GB, but, very likely, since no quote in this thread says Champ can't tackle -- merely that Winfield CAN -- I would say the figment of your imagination needs less attention than the cause of the mistake.

Can people not even compliment a corner who had over 100 tackles this year as something special without you taking it as a slight against Bailey? Bailey is not the best tackling corner in the game. He's good enough. He's not as good as Winfield. That's not bias speaking. That's the truth.

[Gamebreaker]

Originally posted by Art

Bias might be evident, GB, but, very likely, since no quote in this thread says Champ can't tackle -- merely that Winfield CAN -- I would say the figment of your imagination needs less attention than the cause of the mistake.

Can people not even compliment a corner who had over 100 tackles this year as something special without you taking it as a slight against Bailey? Bailey is not the best tackling corner in the game. He's good enough. He's not as good as Winfield. That's not bias speaking. That's the truth.

Oh really...

Which brings me to my replacement - Antoine Winfield. I love this guy as Champ-Lite. The only difference is, he can tackle.

So that isn't implying Champ can't tackle? Figment of my imagination MY ASS! :moon:

[Art]

Originally posted by Mountdrago

I'm not certain how it makes a case that Bailey is a lesser player because the defense has had no pass rush 2 of the last three years. I certainly believe there is no other corner that has been near as good as Bailey since he came in the league that also had to deal with no pass rush and poor safety play. I do not think it is any contest.

I agree the defense under Shotty was good the last 10 games of that year, but that was due to smart coaching - good defensive design by little Marty and a ball control offense. And what's more, that defense would not have been as dominant without Bailey - especially since Smoot played so poorly.

You say you can remember 5 plays that Bailey should have made that would have won games for us. Perhaps. But you do not know that any other corner would have even been in position to make those plays or would have been able to play to the high level Champ did during the rest of those games that put us in position to be so close to winning. All the other top corners mentioned to replace Champ played on solid teams. I know its balsphemous, but you put Darrell Green in his prime in Champ's place last year, he would have given up so many plays that many would have been calling for Darrell's head.

I respect your opinon Art, but I think people here are diluding themselves by saying Bailey is not that good. To me, he is clearly that good and more. But what is importatnt to remember, is there is no requirement that you have the best player at a position, even cornerback (or quarterback), to win a title. We can make the team better by trading Bailey, it'll just take some work to do it and the first step is soberly understanding the value of the player you are giving up. Certainly getting Portis is a major step in making the team better. But let's see how pleased we are with Champ's replacement and hopefully everyone will judge that player by the same standards they are currently using to evaluate Champ.

MD,

Smoot was a rookie under Marty. He didn't play poorly. He played exquisitely. He played very well in Spurrier's first year as well until the lower back injury took his burst. And he played fantastic this year.

I respect your opinion as well, MD, but, I think people here are diluding themselves by saying Bailey is better than he's been. In Spurrier's first year, Bailey was legitimately dominating. He didn't make a ton of plays, but he was a real lock down corner. He's not actually BEEN that in any other year. He's been good at times. But he doesn't make a lot of plays and he doesn't scare teams from throwing at him. He's the best cover corner there is right now.

But he isn't to the level some have attempted to paint him at. I say this from the standpoint of believing he's the top cover guy in the game. I just appreciate that's less a tribute to Champ than it is a condemnation of the state of corner play right now.

[Art]

Originally posted by Gamebreaker

Oh really...

So that isn't implying Champ can't tackle? Figment of my imagination MY ASS! :moon:

No. It's not implying Champ can't tackle. It's implying that Winfield is a smaller version of Champ. But, though he's smaller, he can tackle. See, it's like saying you want the lite version of Miller, but the difference is you want the taste too.

Again. This is YOUR imagination. Dirk can feel free to say it's not. If he does, I'll say sorry. I'm sure you'll say the same when he confirms what I'm saying.

[Gamebreaker]

If he meant he was a better tackler, than he would've said,"The only difference is, he's a better tackle."

But he didn't say that.

And Art, you're putting words in his mouth. How am I imagining what he wrote? If he didn't mean that then I'm sure he'll admit that he worded it poorly.

[Art]

If he didn't mean what your imagination leads you to believe and he says that, it's not his wording that's poor. It's your imagination. I only know this because I have no trouble discerning what he meant. Again, he'll answer one way or the other. Assuming it's my way, and knowing I understood him rendering his phrasing perfectly fine, it calls into question why you must leap to Champ's defense at any perception of slight, real or, as I suspect, imagined.

Also, how am I putting words into his mouth. YOU added the contraction "can't" to his statement. That's a word you added. I didn't add a single word and came up with his meaning. See what I'm getting at?

[inmate running the asylum]

My three choices for Champ's replacement are hard to sort out at the moment, because we don't really know yet what each is going to demand in free agency. Someone on another thread said Winfield would ask for a $12 million signing bonus. Thats ridiculous. I mean the guy is good but he has never made the pro bowl and is only like 5-8. It seems to me his realistic asking price would be about a $7 million SB. So we'll have to see.

The three CB's I favor as a replacement, not in any particular order are:

1 - Antione Winfield - the problem with Winfield is that we would have to light-weight CB's if he teams with Smoot (170 lbs)

2 - Shawn Springs - has chronic hamstring problems though

3 - Bobby Taylor - only 31, three years younger then Vincent and should also be a lot cheaper.

[Mountdrago]

Originally posted by Art

MD,

Smoot was a rookie under Marty. He didn't play poorly. He played exquisitely. He played very well in Spurrier's first year as well until the lower back injury took his burst. And he played fantastic this year.

True - Smoot was excellent under Marty. I was in error in my juggling of the years in my mind. And it is not uncommon that I am in error especially when it has anything to do with using my mind.

We will just agree to disagree on Champ and hope that whoever plays corner for us next year plays better -if that is possible.

[Art]

MD,

I don't actually hope who plays corner for us next year plays better than Champ. I don't expect that to be the case. I hope what is the case that the person who does play corner instead of Champ makes a few more big plays to lift the team, if it it means surrendering a few more catches. And I hope he's doing it for millions less than the biggest contract ever offered to a cornerback .

[Gamebreaker]

Whatever, Art. You just don't know when to admit you're wrong. I know, it's habit I have from time to time. Fortunately for me, that time isn't now.

I didn't add anything to his statement, I cut and pasted his statement exactly the way he wrote it. He said the DIFFERENCE, meaning what makes Champ and Winfield DIFFERENT was "he can tackle." How does that not imply Champ can't tackle? He certainly wasn't talking about Winfield, as he went on to state how many tackles he earned last season.

I don't need, or feel the need to defend Champ. Yet I have an opinion, have no problems expressing it, and I shouldn't be questioned for simply correcting someone's bold AND wrong assumption. Besides, with all the threads that have someone talking negatively about Champ. I do not have the time, nor the patience, or even care to reply to every single one of them. It's not as if any falsehood said on this board is going to change what happens in the future. Whether Champ stays, or becomes a Bronco, or Lion, or whatever. He'll still go to Pro Bowls, and he'll still be shutting guys down. I just hope he goes to the AFC.

[Gamebreaker]

Originally posted by inmate running the asylum

My three choices for Champ's replacement are hard to sort out at the moment, because we don't really know yet what each is going to demand in free agency. Someone on another thread said Winfield would ask for a $12 million signing bonus. Thats ridiculous. I mean the guy is good but he has never made the pro bowl and is only like 5-8. It seems to me his realistic asking price would be about a $7 million SB. So we'll have to see.

The three CB's I favor as a replacement, not in any particular order are:

1 - Antione Winfield - the problem with Winfield is that we would have to light-weight CB's if he teams with Smoot (170 lbs)

2 - Shawn Springs - has chronic hamstring problems though

3 - Bobby Taylor - only 31, three years younger then Vincent and should also be a lot cheaper.

I've read more than once in articles that Winfield's asking price is pretty high. I've never seen any numbers, but I agree that a 12 million signing bonus is too much for what he brings to the table.

I don't want Springs, he wasn't even starting anymore after this season. Ever since he got caught using steriods, his career has gone downhill. Wasn't he the corner than Owens raped when he used the Sharpie in the endzone? I think Springs problem is his confidence is shot.

Taylor looks to be the best option from your list. Yet you have to wonder how much he has left in the tank. He's a much older corner, and he's slower than he used to be.

[Art]

GB,

Are you kidding guy? I don't know when to admit I'm wrong? Didn't I bring up the prospect of admitting I'm wrong in this very thread if it turns out I am? Didn't I suggest you'd do the same in this very thread if the information turns out my way?

You didn't ADD anything to his statement you say?

Where's the world "can't" in his statement. That's what you said he said. Where's that word. Oh, wait, you said it's implied. But, you didn't add any words? This would be a good time to admit you're wrong. Not necessarily on the content yet, but on the fact that YOU DID add a word and you ADMITTED to it in this thread.

He said the difference is he can tackle. What's the difference compared to? Champ or Champ-lite? That's the question. If it's to Champ he'll say so and I'll say sorry. If it's Champ-lite, he'll say so and you'll say sorry. You see, I have a pretty good idea what he meant and what he said. Winfield is smaller but the difference between most smaller guys and Winfield is HE can tackle.

You then say you have an opinion and have no problems expressing it. But, that you shouldn't be questioned for correcting someone's bold and wrong assumption. Well, I'm questioning your bold and wrong assumption that the statement you're questioning was wrong or bold. Am I allowed to have the same rights you have for questioning? Or are they reserved for you bubba?

You have repeatedly and consistently prevented anyone from expressing the idea that Champ may just not be quite the dominating shut down corner you seem to think he is. I don't mind that. It's good to see you feisty. However, when I suspect you allowed that attack dog stance to cloud your judgement as to the meaning of the statements in this thread, I'm guessing you'll feel worse about keeping this line of thinking going than simply taking me up on the apologies pending Dirk's next appearance.

[Gamebreaker]

This is ridiculous. We're arguing over which one of us intepreted his words correctly. I feel like I'm back in middle school. We can wait until Dirk straightens the whole mess out, yet in the end, what exactly does it prove?

[Art]

Originally posted by Gamebreaker

This is ridiculous. We're arguing over which one of us intepreted his words correctly. I feel like I'm back in middle school. We can wait until Dirk straightens the whole mess out, yet in the end, what exactly does it prove?

Assuming I'm correct as to what Dirk meant, it means you are overly sensitive on the Bailey issue. That you are allowing your imagination which views any comment on Bailey that is not clearly glowing to be clearly negative. That you can't keep yourself from attacking anyone who would dare suggest Bailey MIGHT not be the greatest player in the history of the world. Even people who generally believe Bailey is a very fine player don't measure up for you.

And for you to have spoken of the bias on this board with those traits so present in your own post is what was at issue and what Dirk straightening it out will solidify for you.

But, we only started off by arguing over the intrepretation. We've expanded that now to include arguments over whether I know when to admit I'm wrong, which was proven to be a win for me in the debate since I'm the one who mentioned getting to that point for both of us and when we could and it's taken you a half dozen posts to agree with.

We expanded to include arguments over whether you or I added words to the statement we're discussing. I've proven I haven't and you admitted you did, then retracted, then ignored. But, you did. I'm still scanning for "can't" which doesn't explicitly exist. Whether it is implied or not we'll know soon enough. We just know you did add the word.

So, in the end, even if Dirk meant to say Champ can't tackle, I've been able to achieve two other debating victories so I'll come out ahead on points .

[SonnyJ]

Originally posted by Gamebreaker

I don't need, or feel the need to defend Champ.

:laugh:

I can't believe the President of the Champ Bailey Fan Club actually wrote this.

:rotflmao:

[Gamebreaker]

Originally posted by Art

Assuming I'm correct as to what Dirk meant, it means you are overly sensitive on the Bailey issue. That you are allowing your imagination which views any comment on Bailey that is not clearly glowing to be clearly negative. That you can't keep yourself from attacking anyone who would dare suggest Bailey MIGHT not be the greatest player in the history of the world. Even people who generally believe Bailey is a very fine player don't measure up for you.

And for you to have spoken of the bias on this board with those traits so present in your own post is what was at issue and what Dirk straightening it out will solidify for you.

But, we only started off by arguing over the intrepretation. We've expanded that now to include arguments over whether I know when to admit I'm wrong, which was proven to be a win for me in the debate since I'm the one who mentioned getting to that point for both of us and when we could and it's taken you a half dozen posts to agree with.

We expanded to include arguments over whether you or I added words to the statement we're discussing. I've proven I haven't and you admitted you did, then retracted, then ignored. But, you did. I'm still scanning for "can't" which doesn't explicitly exist. Whether it is implied or not we'll know soon enough. We just know you did add the word.

So, in the end, even if Dirk meant to say Champ can't tackle, I've been able to achieve two other debating victories so I'll come out ahead on points .

I'm calling bullsh!t on your whole post.

For one, how can anyone tell me how I FEEL about a player on this team? If anyone knows how I feel, it's going to be me, and not some guy I've never met on a message board. :laugh: Furthermore, just because I have my own opinion about the situation doesn't mean that I have a bias. Quite possibly, the rest of the board could have a bias. Just because the majority of the board believe one thing, does not mean that it is a proven fact.

You are overexagerating, when you say I can't keep from "attacking" anyone who talks negatively about Bailey. We can go through every thread that talks negatively about Bailey, I've clearly only participated in half of them. If that many. If anyone in this discussion has an overactive imagination, it's clearly shown to be you. Who somehow states I think Champ Bailey is the "greatest player in the history of the world."

Come on.

He's not the best player in the history of THIS TEAM, so the whole world part is completely a part of YOUR imagination. Especially when I've never used a statement like that regarding Bailey EVER.

And another thing, I NEVER admitted to saying I added words to his statement. Adding words to his statement would mean I actually took the words he wrote, and added words into that, then tried to pass them off as his thoughts. You know this, and I know this, do not try to twist this argument around to your liking. You find where I said I added words to his argument, and you cut and paste it into your next post.

Now when you say something like this,"Winfield is smaller but the difference between most smaller guys and Winfield is HE can tackle." I begin to wonder who's imagination is really out of control here. He made ZERO reference to smaller guys, but did say Winfield was similar to Champ as,"he's often in great position yet rarely comes down with the picks."

This is another case of you picking an argument to fight, just for the sake of arguing. Yet this time, you don't even have a leg to stand on. The only reason you called in question my objectivity in this whole Bailey issue, is to keep attention away from the fact you were wrong about Dirk's statement.

[Gamebreaker]

Originally posted by SonnyJ

I can't believe the President of the Champ Bailey Fan Club actually wrote this.

I can't believe one of Art's nuthuggers actually detached himself from his balls to post something. What's wrong? Not enough room on his sack, so dropped down to play with the rest of us?

:yes:

Yeah I thought so. :doh:

[Art]

GB,

So, if someone agrees that you are overly sensitive on Bailey issues, he's riding my jock? It couldn't possibly be that you aren't fooling anyone, could it? Could it be your method and style of posts leads to a conclusion this clear, could it? Instead of saying, "Yeah, that's what I am, so what," you decide it's appropriate to make an incredibly pointed and personal attack against another long time, respected poster?

Where have you been personally attacked here that merited that response from you?

When it comes to an admission of being wrong, you've just reached the point where you've passed by that threshold and need to get control of yourself. You are hypersensitive with regard to Bailey on this board. Yet, you don't want to be branded as such, so you lash out. This reflects poorly on you bubba.