galentjm Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 Originally posted by LPlantar What do some of you people expect? He is only going into his 4th year and he had 1000 yards in his 2nd. There aren't many number two WR's in the league better than him. How about Darrell Jackson, Keenan McCardell, Muhsin Muhammed, Tai Streets, Reggie Wayne, Plaxico Burress......Shall I go on? Gardner is talented, thats why he would have trade value. My point is that by trading a player (who plays a position in which we have an adequate replacement) we can gain draft picks that allow us to fill more gaping holes like our pathetic D-line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Funkyalligator Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 Speaking of Shawn Rogers what happened with him.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galentjm Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 Originally posted by LPlantar I like McCants but he hasn't proven he can beat starting corners. McCants' 6 touchdowns must have come in the preseason. Last I checked teams play their starters (unless they're injured) the entire game once they start playing for real. By the way, Gardner only had 5 touchdowns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPlantar Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 Originally posted by galentjm McCants' 6 touchdowns must have come in the preseason. Last I checked teams play their starters (unless they're injured) the entire game once they start playing for real. By the way, Gardner only had 5 touchdowns. In football nickle corners are not generally counted as starters. He is the 3rd WR so he generally goes up against nickle corners. Nicklebacks do not start most games. Learn football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galentjm Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 Originally posted by LPlantar In football nickle corners are not generally counted as starters. He is the 3rd WR so he generally goes up against nickle corners. Nicklebacks do not start most games. Learn football. Darrell Green was at one time our nickle corner. Dre Bly was a nickle corner before going to Detroit. Don't mistake the fact that because the redskins' nickle corner sucks that that is the case for the rest of the league. Additionally, if you actually studied football you'd realize that teams today typically stock there rosters with good corners precisely to defend three wide receiver sets, just go ask Andy Reid. Almost every team in the league uses the three wide receiver set, with many teams using them as their base offense (i.e. the Rams, KC, etc). The fact is McCants was on the field against quality corners and produced, many times in the clutch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ernie5 Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 How about Darrell Jackson, Keenan McCardell, Muhsin Muhammed, Tai Streets, Reggie Wayne, Plaxico Burress......Shall I go on? Tai Streets? I take it yr kidding about him. Darrell Jackson, while talented, has dropped more balls than have been thrown to Gardner. The Chiefs are trying to trade Burress for Larry Johnson, so how successful has that been? Super-talented but a flake. Muhammad just had a great post-season, but has been no more dominant than Gardner in his career. McCardell toiled for years without Gardner's numbers. Wayne I love, but I wouldn't rate the other receivers you mention as much better (if any) than Gardner. I'm not against Gardner being traded for a #2, but I think he's been pretty good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galentjm Posted February 4, 2004 Share Posted February 4, 2004 Originally posted by Ernie5 How about Darrell Jackson, Keenan McCardell, Muhsin Muhammed, Tai Streets, Reggie Wayne, Plaxico Burress......Shall I go on? Tai Streets? I take it yr kidding about him. Darrell Jackson, while talented, has dropped more balls than have been thrown to Gardner. The Chiefs are trying to trade Burress for Larry Johnson, so how successful has that been? Super-talented but a flake. Muhammad just had a great post-season, but has been no more dominant than Gardner in his career. McCardell toiled for years without Gardner's numbers. Wayne I love, but I wouldn't rate the other receivers you mention as much better (if any) than Gardner. I'm not against Gardner being traded for a #2, but I think he's been pretty good. Gardner is good, thats part of my point. Because he's good he has trade value. You're not going to get anything if you don't give up something. Tai Streets had comprable stats to Gardner's in catches (47)and yards (595) while scoring two more touchdowns than Rod. McCardell has broken the 1000 yard mark 5 times in his career, while coming with 100 yards of it in two other seasons. Muhammad has had two seasons of 1100 yards or more, and had three other seasons with more yards than Gardner had this year. Jackson in his four seasons in the league has caught 53, 70 , 63, and 68 balls while going over 1000 yards twice. And wasn't it Gardner whose nickname is 50/50 because those were the odds that he'd catch a ball that was thrown to him. My comments were not meant to bash Rod, but merely to explain that by trading him we could fill more gaping holes on the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPlantar Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Streets isn't better than Gardner, and McCardell and Muhammed are questionable at this point in their career. Wayne is good and Burress is definately better I agree, but I still maintain that it doesn't make sense to trade a young cheap starter who has upside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LPlantar Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Originally posted by galentjm Darrell Green was at one time our nickle corner. Dre Bly was a nickle corner before going to Detroit. Don't mistake the fact that because the redskins' nickle corner sucks that that is the case for the rest of the league. Additionally, if you actually studied football you'd realize that teams today typically stock there rosters with good corners precisely to defend three wide receiver sets, just go ask Andy Reid. Almost every team in the league uses the three wide receiver set, with many teams using them as their base offense (i.e. the Rams, KC, etc). The fact is McCants was on the field against quality corners and produced, many times in the clutch. I never said that nickle corners were bad, I just said that they weren't the starters. They are worse than the starting two corners. If they were better, then they would be starting. Of course teams use 3 receiver sets, and therefore defenses try to get a decent guy for nickle. It is a lot easier to perform well out of the slot though. Look at Hakim, he was a great #3 WR, but since he has become a starter he has struggled. If McCants has to start we may unfortunately find out that he doesn't do as well against starting corners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galentjm Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Originally posted by LPlantar Streets isn't better than Gardner, and McCardell and Muhammed are questionable at this point in their career. Wayne is good and Burress is definately better I agree, but I still maintain that it doesn't make sense to trade a young cheap starter who has upside. You will never be able to get anything in a trade without giving something up. Gardner is a talented player, whose salary cap figure is indeed managable. However, you have to think he's going to walk when he's an unrestricted free agent after the 3005 season, so that he can be the number 1 guy somewhere else. He'll never be the primary receiver while Coles is in town. Atleast by trading him you get something for him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galentjm Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Originally posted by LPlantar I never said that nickle corners were bad, I just said that they weren't the starters. They are worse than the starting two corners. If they were better, then they would be starting. Of course teams use 3 receiver sets, and therefore defenses try to get a decent guy for nickle. It is a lot easier to perform well out of the slot though. Look at Hakim, he was a great #3 WR, but since he has become a starter he has struggled. If McCants has to start we may unfortunately find out that he doesn't do as well against starting corners. Hakim is a good example of a slot guy that couldn't make the transition into a number 1 receiver. And you could very well be correct in thinking that McCants may not be able to as well. However, I believe that McCants could make the adjustment for two reasons. First, McCants is not a small shifty receiver like a Hakim. He has the size to overpower defenders, while still having the speed to stretch the field. Secondly, McCants always seems to come up big. Again, we may disagree upon the talent level of the corners he faced, but you have to admit that he came up huge a couple of times this past season. The two point conversion grab to tie the game against NYG early in the year is a good example. The only way to find out is to give the kid an opportunity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phat Hog Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Originally posted by Gamebreaker McCants isn't faster than Gardner, I remember one of the coaches making a comment about that in some context. Which coaches would those be… we’ve only had coaches for a few weeks now. Surely you don’t mean the circus that has plagued us the past decade do you…:doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Originally posted by galentjm The fact is McCants was on the field against quality corners and produced, many times in the clutch. McCants was only effective last season in the redzone. To be a solid #2, he'll have to be make plays in the middle of the field as well, or we'll find it difficult to even get in the redzone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
>>Spearhead>> Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Doesn't Ron Gardner play next to Lavarios Boles because that Jacob Taylor guy had injury problems? Welcome gillherb! :moon: :laugh: :laugh: :rotflmao: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RySkins Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Three things I don't like about Gardner: 1. He drops everything. 2. He plays stupid, commiting dumb penalties that don't even have an effect on the play. 3. He is lazy, exhibited by his poor route-running and perpensity to give up on plays. I would love to trade Gardner and would do so for any day one pick. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ax Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Originally posted by RySkins Three things I don't like about Gardner: 1. He drops everything. 2. He plays stupid, commiting dumb penalties that don't even have an effect on the play. 3. He is lazy, exhibited by his poor route-running and perpensity to give up on plays. The drops don't bother me half as much as his stupid play does. Hell, it's been jokingly said that if Charley Taylor would have caught half the passes he dropped, they'd still be trying to break his record. Drops happen. But if you are doing all the other things well, (i.e. blocking, finishing routes, not commiting dumb penalties) then you can more easily accept the drops while hoping for improvement. Gardner has been a terrible blocker for a receiver his size. When a play is not designed to go to him he seems to give zero effort. I was hoping that last year he would show improvement in these areas. That he would become more professional. But so far my original thought about his play hasn't changed much. Physically gifted, loads of potential, dumb as a brick. Throw in his habit of signaling a first down EVERY YUCKING TIME HE MAKES ONE, and I'm ready to trade him for a Pepsi and a Snickers bar. All that said, if anybody can get his head right, it's Gibbs & Co. If they can't we won't have to talk about it anymore because he'll be gone. And since it won't be up to me, I'm sure they'll get more than Pepsi and a Snickers bar for him. ^ ^ ^ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galentjm Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Originally posted by Gamebreaker McCants was only effective last season in the redzone. To be a solid #2, he'll have to be make plays in the middle of the field as well, or we'll find it difficult to even get in the redzone. Being effective in the redzone is exactly what you want from a receiver. Especially because we have a burner is Coles who can stretch the field. Bottom line is McCants can do Gardner's job with little to no drop off in production. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Originally posted by gillherb Haha, nooo I'm not a bandwagon fan I'm far from it man...I bleed burgundy and gold. That's true, I said Blake but i meant Banks, for some reason i get them mixed up. Guy wearing number 12 throwing interceptions... easy to get them mixed up. I like Gardner's potential. I think he's lazy. He drops passes that hit him dead in the hands, and that is concentration, and that comes from not being focused. However, he does have a great knack for positioning, and can outjump most DBs when he goes up. He has strong hands and can snatch the ball away from defenders. He has a great ability to catch the deep ball in traffic. That said, I want him to stay, and I want him to develop. Working in the Gibbs coaching system ought to clear up the problems he's having. If not, then we look elsewhere. However, I think if he applies himself, he can become a DOMINANT big receiver. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snagletooth Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Coles dropped more passes than Gardner. Do you not know this, or do you just choose to ignore it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galentjm Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Originally posted by Snagletooth Coles dropped more passes than Gardner. Do you not know this, or do you just choose to ignore it? Are you attempting to claim that Gardner has better hands then Coles? You'll lose that battle every time pal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Lav Coles Targets Drops Percent Caught Percent First Down 158 11 51.9 34.2 Rod Gardner Targets Drops Percent Caught Percent First Down 115 8 51.3 26.1 Coles caught more for first downs, was thrown to more and had 3 more drops. He actually dropped more per batch of passes(just a tiny bit more) than Gardner, surprisingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galentjm Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Originally posted by Ghost Who Talks Lav Coles Targets Drops Percent Caught Percent First Down 158 11 51.9 34.2 Rod Gardner Targets Drops Percent Caught Percent First Down 115 8 51.3 26.1 Coles caught more for first downs, was thrown to more and had 3 more drops. He actually dropped more per batch of passes(just a tiny bit more) than Gardner, surprisingly. Nice stats, but I still think its a stretch to say Gardner has better hands than Coles Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 8 drops? Wow. I guess my eyes do deceive me. I've seen him drop 3 in a GAME. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
galentjm Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Originally posted by Bang 8 drops? Wow. I guess my eyes do deceive me. I've seen him drop 3 in a GAME. ~Bang That number seems a little small to me too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
johndevivi Posted February 5, 2004 Share Posted February 5, 2004 Originally posted by ktball74 Tony Banks was our QB in 2001, and he is easy to forget. i thought Tony Banks did good in 2001, he had a great play action fake to it would fake the hell out of people to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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