fish Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 It's all mute unless we have a front office that can use those picks wisely (Taylor Jacobs?) and some coaches that know what to do with the talent they have. We have neither right now, so all this talk about doing this or that with players is kinda like re-arranging the deck chairs on the Titanic. Champ Baily is not the problem with this team. He is NOT the only former pro bowl player or former solid player that is struggling this year. That's a trend. What's the common denominator? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselPwr44 Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 Champ has made too many big plays during his tenure here to just give him up. I don't prescribe too much to the "What have you done for me lately attitude that floats through these message boards. And the thing about him not having a whole lot of interceptions can be a little misleading. Champ isn't going to have a whole lot of interceptions anyway because the majority of the QB's in this league won't throw in his direction. That is what being a true shutdown CB is about. Bailey has been thrown at more than Smoot. Around the league,teams no longer fear Bailey because they know that the worst that can happen to them when they throw to his side is an incomplete pass. Bailey does not make an opponent pay for testing him. That's the one major flaw to his game. I wouldn't mind keeping Bailey but he is no where near the value he places on himself. He wants to be the highest paid CB in the league. I don't think and more importantly I don't believe the Redskins think he worthy of a Ray Lewis type deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lavarleap56 Posted December 2, 2003 Author Share Posted December 2, 2003 Exactly diesel, Champ for some reason cant make big plays on the ball and when the team needs it most to end the game he drops interceptions. Champ was one of my favorite Redskins until training camp when he took an about faceand started the show me the money campaign. I'd say trade Champ and his quan to any team in the top ten of the draft and lets call it a day. Ihave already posted Champs season stats but i will do it again . Tak- 56 Ass- 3 Sak- 0 Int- 1 Pass Def- 4 - Doesnt look like stats from a 20 million dollar signing bonus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 Look at this: (could Barry be back and then traded to the Skins for Champ???) Probably not... http://www.mlive.com/lions/stories/index.ssf?/base/sports-0/106984500041090.xml Lions News Sanders asked for and had meeting with Ford to smooth things out Wednesday, November 26, 2003 By Tom Kowalski ALLEN PARK -- The healing has begun. Former Detroit Lions running back Barry Sanders recently visited the team's practice facility in Allen Park to meet with team owner William Clay Ford and several high-ranking Lions officials. The meeting was one of the first steps in an effort to repair the relationship between Sanders and the team. Sources close to the situation said the meeting was initiated by Sanders, who met privately with Ford and then later met with several members of the front office. While the Lions confirmed that a meeting between Sanders and Ford took place, they refused to discuss any details out of respect for Sanders' desire for privacy. Ford and Sanders were not available for comment, but a source said the meetings "went very well." Sanders, the third-leading career rusher in NFL history, abruptly retired from the team five years ago, leaving bitter feelings on both sides. Since that time, Sanders and the Lions organization have battled over several issues, including his playing rights and his signing bonus. The Lions, who refused to trade Sanders' rights to another team, were successful in forcing Sanders to repay the remaining portion of his signing bonus (because he did not play out the length of his contract). In the five years following his retirement, Sanders refused to take part in any official Lions activities and the bad blood seemed to boil over when Sanders criticized former Lions chief operating officer Chuck Schmidt in his recent book. Sanders blamed Schmidt for dismantling a playoff team and treating the players poorly. For the last three years, Lions president Matt Millen (who replaced Schmidt) has attempted to improve the relations between the team and Sanders and has talked to him often. When Sanders left the Lions, the team said publicly that they would always keep a door open for Sanders' return to the organization, in any capacity. As a result, the two sides agreed to a joint venture next Tuesday in which Sanders will hold a press conference promoting his book at Ford Field. The Lions have also allowed Sanders to use their official team website to take advance orders for the book. One Lions official said the team was aware of the unusual nature of hosting an author who is a former player and who didn't always shed a positive light on the team in his book. "We can't change the past. What's done is done. We're looking at the future," said the official, requesting anonymity. While Sanders rebuffed all attempts by the Lions to have him take part in official team functions, Millen continued to have conversations with Sanders over the last three years to keep the lines of communication open. When Steve Mariucci was hired as the head coach last February, one of his first priorities was to call Sanders and welcome him back to the team whenever he felt the desire to return. It appears now that Sanders will be more likely to commit to a jersey ceremony next season at Ford Field. The Lions would like to retire the No. 20 with the last three men to wear it -- Lem Barney, Billy Sims and Barry Sanders -- in attendance as the jersey is lifted to the rafters. While several Lions numbers are no longer issued, including Bobby Layne's No. 22, Dutch Clark's No. 7 and Chuck Hughes' No. 85, no number has ever been officially retired Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lavarleap56 Posted December 2, 2003 Author Share Posted December 2, 2003 And what big plays are being talked about here because i forgot i guess . I dont know how many times with the game close or on the line he has been burnt during his career Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlobberKnockinFootball Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 Originally posted by bubba9497 Because Champ turned down the contract offfer many have turned against him and been overly critical of his play. There hasn't been too many if any CB who has had better success each week as Champ. He has played hurt, and made many big plays. He has been burned a couple times this year... alot maybe for him, but by far less than any other starting CB in this league, plus he is one of the few CB that come up on running plays and lays a hit. We need to keep Champ, or it will be another Redskin going somewhere else, and everybody crying later "why did we let him go" Last year it was Smoot, this year Champ.... we need to keep both. Bubba, have you been watching the same games as we have? He's been burned more than a couple of times. If he wants playmaker money...then how about being one for a change? Remember...I was the biggest Bailey fan there was. I have all kinds of Bailey memorabilia at home. But from his attitude and play this year he showed his true colors...he's not a team player. He's Leon from the Budwieser commercials man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OURYEAR#56 Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 This works if we beef up our D-line. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 Quite honestly if we pair Smoot with another good or average CB (not a scrub) and get a pick for Bailey and the room to build part of a DL, it would be the best thing for our Defense. You need to be similarly dangerous at all parts of the field on D, not have 3 or 4 Pro-Bowlers and 7 or 8 liabilities, that's too easy to scheme around. If we have a balanced secondary, linebacking corp, and DL, we will have a good defense even with Edwards here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MAATopDogg Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 2 #1 's nothing less. If they don't bite we try to resign him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lavarleap56 Posted December 2, 2003 Author Share Posted December 2, 2003 With Bailey gone it will allow the team to Sign quality d-line help they will not draft it in the first round maybe second . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MidPennSkin Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 Originally posted by Johnny Punani Nobody gives up 2 #1's huh? I guess you don't have a very good memory then. The Panthers gave us two first round picks for Sean Gilbert. You remember that??? Franchise players being signed by another team is rare but it does happen. The way I remember it, the league gave us the two first round picks - Carolina thought they could get Gilbert for no picks. Shawn refused to play for us his francise year, sat home the entire year. The next year, Carolina thought he was a UFA and signed him. We appealed to the league and they awarded us two first rounders. Carolina probably wouldn't have signed him if they had known it would cost them 2 first rounders. Anyone else remember it that way? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dexter's Better Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 Originally posted by TC4 Let him go to Detroit and play for the Lions since they are mired in the quagmire of mediocrity And what exactly are we? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 That sounds familiar MidPennSkin.... I think we pretty much had to go to an arbitrator or something to figure out what Carolina owed us for his rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 He is no where near that selfish. Where are you people getting your material from? Before this season, he was NEVER picked on at the end of a game. I look at this season more as an abherration than an indication of Champ Bailey as a player. If you have 4 great seasons, and your last one is bad, are you no longer a great player? People are making too big a deal over his lack of INT's. Darrell Green usually deflected passes instead of going for the INT, because he knew the risk there was in going for the INT. And it's better for the team, that he deflect the pass than go for an INT, miss, and give up a TD. Right now Champ is frustrated. Maybe his frustration will last the whole season, maybe it won't. Yet I doubt that frustration will carry over for 7 months into next season. He'll likely be back to his usual form next season, and do we want him shutting people down for another team, or for us. Too many misconceptions are being made on the contract issue. None of us are GM's, so let the front office handle it and get over it. He never formally declined the initial offer, maybe he and his agent were still deliberating on how to counter or whether to accept it when the Skins stopped negotiations. Who knows? Surely none of us do. Judging by his recent comments, I believe he wanted to wait until the end of the season before he decided to stay with the Skins or not. He seems very disenchanted by the fact that he's never had the same defensive coordinator for his whole pro career, the lack of continuity is a problem for him. A just concern. This doesn't mean he can't sign a reasonable contract. None of us have any clue how much cap room we will have, or what type of contract Champ will sign at this point. Yet we could place blame on the front office for blatantly ignoring the DL for so long that it had to come to this anyway. How many drafts has it been since we drafted a Dlineman in the first 3 rounds? I guarantee you we have the longest tenure of any organization of not doing so. We have obvious playmakers on the defense, yet their overcompensating and getting exposed too much because the defensive line isn't pulling it's weight. When the dam has leaks in it, it's eventually gonna break. Well guys, the dam broke. And this is no time to make Bailey the scapegoat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 Gamebreaker, I have no doubt in my mind that Champ Bailey is a good CB. He may even be a great one. However, it is not worth it for the Redskins to pay the guy the money he's going to want. They would cripple their chances to bring in any DL talent. A lot of this is the fault of the FO, but what's done is done. They made some bad choices and had some unique situations where they had 3 top-5 players in 2 years. That doesn't happen too frequently for NFL teams. That means that they all were going to have to be re-signed around the same time. Anyway, they need to somehow (and I have no clue how) get to a point where they are more balanced in how they pay their players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 Originally posted by speedwagon20 Gamebreaker, I have no doubt in my mind that Champ Bailey is a good CB. He may even be a great one. However, it is not worth it for the Redskins to pay the guy the money he's going to want. They would cripple their chances to bring in any DL talent. A lot of this is the fault of the FO, but what's done is done. They made some bad choices and had some unique situations where they had 3 top-5 players in 2 years. That doesn't happen too frequently for NFL teams. That means that they all were going to have to be re-signed around the same time. Anyway, they need to somehow (and I have no clue how) get to a point where they are more balanced in how they pay their players. I see your point speedwagon, but what I'm saying is everyone is assuming that Bailey is trying to break the bank(or the cap, either or). Simply because didn't sign the initial offer. Yet everyone is ASSUMING because he wants too much money. But in actuality, nobody knows how much he really wants. His comments recently haven't been of the "I wanna get paid and that is all I care about" variety. They deal with the team, and he was being honest when he said he'll be gone if Edwards doesn't stay. This isn't as much an ultimatium to keep Edwards, which they should, but a cry to stop firing and hiring so many damn people every season. It isn't helping, and it's sad when the players realize this and the front office doesn't have a clue. Our team hasn't played exceptionally well this season. Yet when you have that much player turnover in one offseason, rarely will any team play well regardless of how much talent they have. These players need more time in each system. What we actually need to add to this team isn't an influx of more replacements, just a few tune-up parts that will better the other positions we've already filled. As far as Champ crippling our chances of getting talented DL here, I doubt it. The team has already taken measures in ensuring that won't happen. They've already asked Trotter and Armstead to restructure their contracts to help. Whether he asks for a contract bigger than was offered, we don't know. I doubt it, as it would be silly considering his play compared to his past seasons and unreasonable towards our cap situation. I just don't like Champ being the scapegoat for this situation, when the real culprit is Snyder and Cerrato. If they weren't busy signing unnecessary, big name free agents *coughtrottercough* we wouldn't even be in this situation. Place the blame where it belongs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lavarleap56 Posted December 2, 2003 Author Share Posted December 2, 2003 Hey gamebreaker if you think back to 00' and beyond how many times can you remember Champ being 5 or 10 yards behind Rocket Ismail streaking down the sideline when the games are on the line in the 4th ?/ i can remember at least 2 maybe three. Armani Toomer owns Champ Bailey everygame they play and has beaten Champ on a regular basis. Champ is a good corner but i just fell we need to move on at this point . We can not give Champ the money he wants! we need to restructure Arrington and how long do you think it will be until Ramsey wants a new deal?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 Gamebreaker, and I see your points. I guess my opinions are based on the assumptions that Champ will again ask for a signing bonus in the ballpark of $15 to $18M as it was rumored before this season. Don't get me wrong, for the right price I'd love to have him back. I just don't see that happening because there are going to be teams out there that will give him more than we SHOULD give him. As for Champ being the scapegoat, he's obviously not even close to one of our big problems. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 Originally posted by lavarleap56 Hey gamebreaker if you think back to 00' and beyond how many times can you remember Champ being 5 or 10 yards behind Rocket Ismail streaking down the sideline when the games are on the line in the 4th ?/ i can remember at least 2 maybe three. Armani Toomer owns Champ Bailey everygame they play and has beaten Champ on a regular basis. Champ is a good corner but i just fell we need to move on at this point . We can not give Champ the money he wants! we need to restructure Arrington and how long do you think it will be until Ramsey wants a new deal?? Like a broken record:doh: ..... ...you keep saying we can't give Champ what he wants. Then tell me, exactly how does Champ want? If you have a number you would be the first to know this because no one else does. Ismail only beat Champ once late in the game, that one I forgot. But don't overexagerate, that only happened once. And as I recall, that was only deep pass or TD he gave up that whole season. Not exactly an indication that he isn't a top corner. And by the way, every corner has that one reciever that gives them fits. Toomer is Champ's, it's no secret. Darrell Green used to get owned by Michael Irvin, still didn't make him any less a Hall of Fame caliber cornerback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lavarleap56 Posted December 2, 2003 Author Share Posted December 2, 2003 The F.O. hasnt asked Trotter or Jessie to restructure at this point , it was leaked that they may release or attempt to restructure. Champ is not the scapegoat at all , i just dont think that it is not a accident that Darrell Green leaves and Champ stops playing the slot in certain situations and now he looks average. I feel sorry for anyone who thinks Champ will be hear next season cause it aint gonna happen so you shoulp start prepareing now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lavarleap56 Posted December 2, 2003 Author Share Posted December 2, 2003 Roket beat him more than once i think but i could be wrong. Champ has already said hewants to be paid like The top corner in the league and basically laughed at a 15 million bonus 9 year 55 million dollar deal. Champ also stated that he wants to be payed like Ray Lewis cause he is that type of player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TD_washingtonredskins Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 lavar, it does have the same type of feeling as davis from last year. however, i will be okay with champ leaving if it's because we choose not to overpay and we possibly get something in return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gamebreaker Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 Lavar, Show me some quotes and I'll believe you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lavarleap56 Posted December 2, 2003 Author Share Posted December 2, 2003 If we had a dominant d-line Champ would be awesome but we dont have that and we wont have that if we resign him . People say that Vinny and Dan are to blame for this however you can go back to Casserly if you want because You build defenses from the D-line back not the other way around . You can not compensate for a crappy line but you can compensate for a average secondary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted December 2, 2003 Share Posted December 2, 2003 We arent getting rid of Champ... He was offered a more than reasonable contract. For the money he is demanding we can sign two stellar corners to replace him or a stellar corner and go after one of the UFA's young stars on the 49ers to replace spots on the defense. 16 million is more than fair and the rumor on WTEM is restructuring Laqvar and looking at what to do with Samuels. Trading him for a 1 and shaun rogers from detroit while going up the street to B'more for an incentive based deal for macalister (off field problems) :weed: or another 2 tier corner while addressing the the d line in the draft is the way to go. Detroit though could be impressive Champ at corner and a former wolverine returning named charles woodson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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