Golgo-13 Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Whatever your politics, you have to be oblivious to reality to deny that America today is torn by ideological divisions as deep as those of the Civil War era. We are, in fact, in the midst of the Second American Civil War. Of course, one obvious difference between the two is that this Second Civil War is (thus far) non-violent. On the other hand, there is probably more hatred between the opposing sides today than there was during the First Civil War. And I am not talking about extremists. A senior editor of the respected center-left New Republic just wrote an article titled, "The Case for Bush Hatred," an article that could have been written by writers at most major American newspapers, by most Hollywood celebrities, and almost anyone else left of center. And the conservative hatred of former President Bill Clinton was equally deep. In general, however, the similarities are greater than the differences. Once again the North and the South are at odds (though many individuals on each side identify with the other). And once again, the fate of the nation hangs in the balance. The two sides' values and visions of America are as incompatible as they were in the 1860s. For those Americans who do not know what side they are on or who are not certain about what the Second American Civil War is being fought over, I offer a list of the most important areas of conflict. While the views of many, probably even most, Americans do not fall entirely on either side, the two competing camps are quite distinguishable. On one side are those on the Left -- liberals, leftists and Greens -- who tend to agree with one another on almost all major issues. On the other side are those on the Right -- conservatives, rightists and libertarians -- who agree on stopping the Left, but differ with one another more often than those on the Left do. Here, then, is Part One of the list of the major differences that are tearing America apart: The Left believes in removing America's Judeo-Christian identity, e.g., removing "under God" from the Pledge, "In God we trust" from the currency, the oath to God and country from the Boy Scouts Pledge, etc. The Right believes that destroying these symbols and this identity is tantamount to destroying America. The Left regards America as morally inferior to many European societies with their abolition of the death penalty, cradle-to-grave welfare and religion-free life; and it does not believe that there are distinctive American values worth preserving. The Right regards America as the last best hope for humanity and believes that there are distinctive American values -- the unique combination of a religious (Judeo- Christian) society, a secular government, personal liberty and capitalism -- worth fighting and dying for. The Left believes that impersonal companies, multinational and otherwise, with their insatiable drive for profits, have a profoundly destructive effect on the country. The Right believes that the legal system, particularly trial lawyers, lawsuits and judges who make laws, is the greater threat to American society. The Left believes multiculturalism should be the ideal for American schools and for government policy. The Right believes that the Americanization of all its citizens is indispensable to the survival of the United States. The Left believes that the Boy Scouts as currently constituted pose a moral threat to society. The Right believes the Boy Scouts continue to be one of the greatest moral institutions in the country. The Left believes in equality more than in liberty. The Right believes more in liberty. For example, the Left believes that for the equality's sake, men's clubs must accept women. The Right believes that for liberty's sake, associations must be free to choose their own members. The Left believes that when schools give out condoms to teenagers, they are promoting safe sex. The Right believes that when schools give out condoms, they are promoting more sex. The Left believes that poverty, racism and psychopathology cause violent crime. The Right believes a lack of self-control, lack of religious practice and lack of good values are the primary causes of violent crime. The Left believes that "war is not the answer." The Right believes that war is often the only answer to governmental evil. Any one of these differences is enough to create an entirely different America. Added together, the differences suggest people who live in different worlds that are on a collision course. And I have only listed some of the conflicting views. Next week, in Part Two, I will discuss the other major conflicts making for the Second American Civil War. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Wow. Great read. "The Left believes in equality more than in liberty. The Right believes more in liberty." This writer just nailed ALL the problems in a nutshell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 "The Left believes in equality more than in liberty. The Right believes more in liberty." Yep, collectivism vs individualism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Om Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 The Left quite likely believes this article was written by the Right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Really? Why? What part did he get wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 By these standards, I'm more to the right that left... I'm just not as far right as most of you guys. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackC Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Originally posted by Kilmer17 Wow. Great read. "The Left believes in equality more than in liberty. The Right believes more in liberty." This writer just nailed ALL the problems in a nutshell. Funny how it's the rights Ashcroft who is removing our liberty! The author is a right wing nut. The article is very slanted! A waste of time. :puke: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackC Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Originally posted by Kilmer17 Really? Why? What part did he get wrong? What part did he get right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Jack, a lot of people on the right do not support the patriot act. I am one of them Seriously, what part did he get wrong? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Om Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Come on, Kilmer ... don't play cute. Gruff suits you better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Is this wrong? "The Left believes in removing America's Judeo-Christian identity, e.g., removing "under God" from the Pledge, "In God we trust" from the currency, the oath to God and country from the Boy Scouts Pledge, etc. The Right believes that destroying these symbols and this identity is tantamount to destroying America." Isn't the left trying to do this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackC Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 "The Left believes in removing America's Judeo-Christian identity, e.g., removing "under God" from the Pledge, "In God we trust" from the currency, the oath to God and country from the Boy Scouts Pledge, etc. The Right believes that destroying these symbols and this identity is tantamount to destroying America." Actually the left believes the government has no business shoving religion down anyone's throat. The right believes that christrian people are better than everyone else. "The Left regards America as morally inferior to many European societies with their abolition of the death penalty, cradle-to-grave welfare and religion-free life; and it does not believe that there are distinctive American values worth preserving. The Right regards America as the last best hope for humanity and believes that there are distinctive American values -- the unique combination of a religious (Judeo- Christian) society, a secular government, personal liberty and capitalism -- worth fighting and dying for." Wrong again. The left believes America is a work in progress. We can learn from other nations in the world in the same way we can teach them. The right believes if we don't agree with another nation we should just invade them. "The Left believes that impersonal companies, multinational and otherwise, with their insatiable drive for profits, have a profoundly destructive effect on the country. The Right believes that the legal system, particularly trial lawyers, lawsuits and judges who make laws, is the greater threat to American society." Close. The left believes that corporations have profits as their number one goals. The left believes government regulations are important to ensure the public good is taken care of when profits and the public good conflicts. The right believes we don't need no stinking regulations. Business will always do what's best. The left believe American citizens have the right to sue corporations. The right wants to protect corporations from the rest of us. "The Left believes multiculturalism should be the ideal for American schools and for government policy. The Right believes that the Americanization of all its citizens is indispensable to the survival of the United States. "The Left believes that the Boy Scouts as currently constituted pose a moral threat to society. The Right believes the Boy Scouts continue to be one of the greatest moral institutions in the country." The left believes is individual rights of every citizen while the right thinks the government should make laws to govern activities in citizens bedrooms but not the corporate board room. "The Left believes in equality more than in liberty. The Right believes more in liberty. For example, the Left believes that for the equality's sake, men's clubs must accept women. The Right believes that for liberty's sake, associations must be free to choose their own members." The left belives equality and liberty go hand in hand while the right believes the more money you have the more liberty you deserve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackC Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Come on. Anyone who reads that so called article and can't see the right wing spin is not really paying attention. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Jack, thank you for proving the point. You represent very well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 The common good comes at the expense of liberty. Equality( in terms of outcome) and liberty do not go hand in hand. As for enforcing your religion, I agree. That is why I am not a conservative, but rather a libertarian. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 One glaring omission in this article. The writer admits that there are strong disagreements amongst those on the right, but doesn't really offer any analysis/examples/explanations of said differences. For instance, I am far, far more concerned with the exponential growth of government ver the last few decades than I am over whether or not the pledge of allegiance reverts to its original form and omits the words "under God." By contrast, many of the Buchananite/Quayle crowd are unconcerned with the abridgment of civil rights or excessive regulations, whilst they stay up nights trying to gather enough energy to create a new constitutional amendment legalising school prayer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackC Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Originally posted by Kilmer17 Jack, thank you for proving the point. You represent very well. No doubt I did spin from my point of view, but can't you see that's what the author of the article did too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Om Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Speaking as one who aligns himself with neither of the polar opposites some of you relentless serial political posters here represent ... the conservative slant on this one is really NOT very hard to see. I'd make the same call if a liberal slant were quite this obvious. Have we really gotten to the point where we can't first recognize and then admit that authors slant **** to fit agendas? Especially when it's not even a close call? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilmer17 Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Well I can admit that your post leans a certain way. Those leaning left cant see a straightforward article as such. Anything that doesnt lean left HAS to be rightwing in their eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackC Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Kilmer, Come on. This is part of the problem and one thing the author has correct. If you really believe that's an accurate representation of liberal views than I sure have a lot more work to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Whether or not one is right/left is not the issue here. The fact is, if this article were slightly altered to be more precise, it would be right on. The Left, I'd say, is for getting rid of the Drug War, but I'm not so sure on that even. But let's say that is true(is it--Jack are you for eliminating the War on Some Drugs?) and that most on the right are not. Well, I guess that's what makes me a libertarian lol But I think what we are missing is the difference between an allegedly "right-wing" statist politician and his leftist counterparts. What I look at are the lower levels, the grassroots and individual views. ANd when it comes to those lower levels, it is clear that leftists are for collective rights, not individual rights. They are for forcing mortgage companies to extend loans to classes of people that default at a higher rate by attacking them as "racist." They are for ignoring the choices that people make that put them in "poor" conditions. They are NOT for personal responsibility. They speak up for "prisoner's rights" the same people who murdered children and stole from their neighbors. The left almost NEVER EVER EVER uses the word "liberty" and that is telling. Because to the left, "equality of outcome" is more important. Feeling good, rather than DOING good is more important. I've seen it far too often. When presented with a problem, to the left it's a CRISIS and can only be addressed by behavior imposed by government or taxation. Something not right in society? It's the fault of Christianity, not the spiritual void that many face. Something not right in the world? It's the fault and ONLY the fault of America and maybe the West. The Left is notoriously ignorant of current non-partisan science on many environmental issues(GM foods, environmental degradation) and cannot see the biggest polluters and destroyers of nature were the states they admired most---the socialist/communist ones. The left does not see the world in black/white, except when it comes to America being evil, white men being to blame for everything wrong, corporations being bad, etc. They are hypocrites to the nth degree and have little to no understanding of economics or the incentive/disincentive nature of human beings. The left believes someone is smart because that person agrees with them and has been anointed as such. Stack Cornel West vs. Thomas Sowell, for example. Sowell, in writing at least, blows West out of the water. The left believes the same problem persists, in spite of society bending over backwards to address it in their way. Sex ed? Pregnancy and STD rates skyrocketed(not blaming it on sex ed, but it certainly did not prevent or ameliorate these problems) What's the solution? Not allow parents control over what their kids learn in school and MORE MORE sex ed. Now let's talk about homosexuality! Certain poor people having problems? Entitlements is the answer! But wait, the poverty rate(though even that line is political and arbitrary) has never really dropped! Some people might need food? Let's inflate the numbers of hungry by saying "at-risk" which could mean anybody who isn't feasting nightly! Homeless? Mentally ill people who could no longer be held in institutions thanks to the ACLU. And drug addicts and drunks mainly. But no one is responsible for their choices! But somehow the homeless issue goes away under Democratic administrations, in the media at least. Spend 50 billion on the homeless in San Fran and do NOTHING to make dent? Hey, why not just cut the homeless a check for a million? Because we all know that would be wrong. But damn, why couldn't san fran solve the problem at 50 BILLION dollars? Is it because some people cannot be redeemed no matter how much loot you throw at them(or more likely at bureaucrats with cushy new jobs?) The left is composed mainly of ignorant people who have no clue about some of the critical aspects of reality as faced by homo sapiens and those ruled by emotionalism rather than rationalism. I suppose that's why the greatest Founders would be aghast at what this country has become(Jefferson, Adams, Madison, Franklin) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 So who wrote it? And where was it published? Curious that it wasn't sited...or am I blind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Oh and the left never ever says "Oh our bad on that policy that failed." They just continue to enforce more bad regulations, laws and economic policies--which is the definition of insanity. Being a leftist means never having to say you're sorry. How many leftists admired the Soviets and actively campaigned against American strength in the Cold War? (all those protests of American missiles in Europe) How many leftists are protesting Zimambwe's current government? How many leftists are talking about the Sudan? Why is it that leftists get to say crap like "oh, I never liked Stalin" when in fact they did. Then they embrace Castro--I mean, sheesh, how many evil dictators is enough? Pol Pot and his Khmer Rouge--that was just another glorious people's revolution, right? Oddly, the left is now starting to dislike China, but most of that is the Tibet thing. So now the left looks to Europe, instead of the hardline commie states for inspiration. The same Europe that will one day be under the green banners of Islam if they do not act to save their civilization. But if they aren't willing to fight for it anymore, maybe it's not worth saving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JackC Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 GhostofWoodsonReturn, Man that is the worst spin I've ever read my friend. The funniest part is when you say the left never says they're sorry! Now that's a joke because that's part of what's wrong with the right wing in this country. Just once I'd like to hear the RWW's say, "sorry we thought they had WMD's" We'll do better next time! The rightists get to say crap like "oh I never liked Hitler" when in fact they did. Then the embrace the Saudi's who were clearly behind 9/11. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Om Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Okay, I see we're firmly back on familiar ground. * Exeunt Om, Stage Center * Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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