manchild157 Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 I appreciate the discussion about on 3-4 defense and the propensity towards injuries, great food for thought..wow! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hailyeah1 Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 I appreciate the discussion about on 3-4 defense and the propensity towards injuries, great food for thought..wow! yeah great discussion , this is what we had on the old format until we had to scroll thru the ad spam and trolling/tempertantrums don't want to go any farther on that ,don't want that again. alot of people were up in arms when we went to the 3-4. What does everyone think ,should we have stayed with the 4-3 or like the switch to the 3-4? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
28skinsman Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 The way I see it this staff has chosen the 3-4 and that's all that matters. This is year four with this staff / system and IMO we can't switch systems now it does no good to change to a different system at this point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goskins10 Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 First, thanks 28 for the help! Going through Extreme seems to have made a difference. As for the 3-4 vs 4-3, typically the 3rd year is when you see real results in switching. However, we had some many injuries (see the previous discussion), it didn't turn out for us, especially the first half of the year. That means this year should e the "breakout" year forf the 3-4. As 28 said, coaches picked it so not much we can do to change it. Let's hope this truly is the year it pays off. The injury comparison could be more anecdotol since all I looked at was one season. But it is worth consideration. If I time, I may look at the last 4 or 5 years and see what the results were. That could eeither provide a trend or squash the idea. Having said that, the players union has likely already done this. They would have broguht it up if there were real data. But you never know, they did sign a contract making the commissioner the person who is the arbitor for his own stupid decisions!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdhawk4skins Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 okay anyone see the phillycarolina game? their offense looks alot like ours which brings me back to that balyor/oregon game where baylor won but oregon was almost matching score for score . could we be looking at a fast break game out of both offenses when we play? I got to see some of it and it is only a sample of what Chip will put on the field Monday Night. The one play that stood out is how the QB runs up to the line of scrimmage before he throws it back to a receiver near the side line. I welcome if they want to run that play on us since I think it will go nowhere every time. LeSean McCoy is going to get many run opportunities under this system which is something he didn't get as much of from Reid's. You have to appreciate how quickly the offense sets up and runs the next play. It really speeds the game up and could make it quite entertaining to watch. Overall, I'm not convinced Chip Kelly's college level offense scheme will work in the NFL. However, he’ll probably find a way to adapt it. I expect there will be many growing pains with the offense as he works to refine it against NFL defenses. In our first match up with the Eagles,I really feel we'll be very effective running the ball and controlling the clock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchild157 Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 On the 3-4 vs 4-3 discussion. 7-8 years ago I was envious of teams that were running the 3-4 because they seemed to be the better, more aggressive defenses. But I think what it comes down to is personnel, the old Redskin regime were content to run a 4-3, bring in old vets past their prime while we trade good draft picks in order to procure them. I like the 3-4 but if management had worked the youth movement 10 years ago and stuck with it then maybe the 4-3 would have been fine for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdhawk4skins Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 yeah great discussion , this is what we had on the old format until we had to scroll thru the ad spam and trolling/tempertantrums don't want to go any farther on that ,don't want that again. alot of people were up in arms when we went to the 3-4. What does everyone think ,should we have stayed with the 4-3 or like the switch to the 3-4? Hailyeah1, I think the 3-4 defense is much better suited for this era of pass happy spread offenses. Also, I think it is easier to find great talent at linebacker than it is for defensive tackles. Great dominant DT's are very hard to find where you can probably think of 10 very good LBs in the league right now. The primary responsibility of 3-4 at the D-line is pretty simple: Hold and consume as many blockers as possible to free of the OLBs but the OLBs do have to read schemes more with the added responsibility in pass protection. If the NFL was back in the day of a pro set formation with standard 5-7 drop backs in passing then a 4-3 would be preferred. Let's look at one of the most successful NFL defenses running in the past 15 years or so. The Steelers run the 3-4 defense better than anyone and they have been running the scheme since I think back in the mid 90s. I want us to follow their lead with a rich tradition of great defenses and few stars surrounding it season after season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchild157 Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 I got to see some of it and it is only a sample of what Chip will put on the field Monday Night. The one play that stood out is how the QB runs up to the line of scrimmage before he throws it back to a receiver near the side line. I welcome if they want to run that play on us since I think it will go nowhere every time. LeSean McCoy is going to get many run opportunities under this system which is something he didn't get as much of from Reid's. You have to appreciate how quickly the offense sets up and runs the next play. It really speeds the game up and could make it quite entertaining to watch. Overall, I'm not convinced Chip Kelly's college level offense scheme will work in the NFL. However, he’ll probably find a way to adapt it. I expect there will be many growing pains with the offense as he works to refine it against NFL defenses. In our first match up with the Eagles,I really feel we'll be very effective running the ball and controlling the clock. Jd- As I said a couple of days ago that Philly can give some teams a fit with the spread offense opening up their running game. Then you got this uptempo offense that defenses will have to be sharp and well prepared for esp. teams that are running a new defense(Cowboys) or are just young. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdhawk4skins Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 Manchild, It will be interesting to see if Chip Kelly can make the up-tempo offense work in the NFL. The Bills tried it back in the 90s with little success initially but it failed as teams adjusted to it. However, I do believe that Chip Kelly is a very imaginative individual and may find different ways to spread the offense to make the fast pace hurried system successful. Sometime timing is everything and with the influx of zone read and pistol formations complicating offenses, it may fit nicely with what Chip Kelly wants to do. I'm not fully convinced yet he can pull it off but I know he'll bring some offense schemes to the NFL never seen before. To say the least; it will be interesting! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdhawk4skins Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 I wanted to follow up the question of 3-4 or the 4-3 defense with the link below that provides a view of the advantage of the 3-4 defense today. I was wrong about the Steelers running the 3-4 since the mid-90s. They have run it since 1982! http://bleacherreport.com/articles/374643-the-3-4-defense-and-why-the-best-defenses-in-the-nfl-run-this-scheme Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchild157 Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 JD- we all know that defensive coaches have been brainstorning ways to counteract the zone read and pistol formation for this coming season. A thought I had the other night from Kyle where he stated that defenses will be trying to shut down the zone read and pistol and he was looking forward to the challenge of ''ok you take this away and we will do this'' like playing chess. What I have been wondering about '' Will an offense be more successful starting their offense from the pistol/zone read platform and then changing when needed or a more conventional offense platform and use the zone read/pistol as a way to be effective?'' Hope I'm making this clear enough for a discussion because , haha, it's not entirely clear to me. I wanted to follow up the question of 3-4 or the 4-3 defense with the link below that provides a view of the advantage of the 3-4 defense today. I was wrong about the Steelers running the 3-4 since the mid-90s. They have run it since 1982! http://bleacherreport.com/articles/374643-the-3-4-defense-and-why-the-best-defenses-in-the-nfl-run-this-scheme The Steelers and Ravens are the teams I was most envious of with their 3-4. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdhawk4skins Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 Manchild, that is a good question about what to base the offense on before you react to the defense scheme to counter it. Even last year the zone read was only a small percentage of our overall offense. However, I do think we use the Pistol formation in most situations. I thnk, but could be wrong, that our Pistol formation sets us up to use either the zone read or deviate to a more traditional offense based on what the defense shows. So right now I think using the Pistol formation to start is the most effective way to allow us the flexibility to apply many offensive schemes on a defense at the point of the line. I feel it will take many years before the defenses catch up to the various influx of spread offense formation with the addition of zone reads and whatever Chip Kelly comes up with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchild157 Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 That's about where I was in thinking. It seems for ''now'' that the pistol lineup, initiating the zone read will be the toughest for defenses to get a grip on. Remember how the Steelers reaction last year to it was to knock Griff down every opportunity, I believe that was the game Griff started putting his hands in the air to show the def and refs that he wasn't a ball carrier. I still believe that the Steelers knocking Griff to the ground wasn't the reason we lost...but 8 passes dropped was definetly the reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdhawk4skins Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 No doubt the Steelers game last season was by far the worst performance from our offense. It had me concerned that we are not a very good wet weather offense. However, I believe it has more to do with a well-disciplined Pittsburgh defense running various blitz packages against our rookie QB and our young offense coordinator. Those are the games you need the offense to learn from and improve on. I believe we were really schooled by the Pittsburgh defense in that game. You need games like that to get better which I think we did as the season progressed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
goskins10 Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 @ Hawk - That Pittsburg game was all about 11 drops. All we had to do was catch 1/2 those passes and we win the game easily. The nice thing about a runner like AM is that slower conditions will not affect him as much. He will just keep plodding along. He is so strong in his lower boddy and is always leaning forward. My bigger fear for him is the new rule about thee RB leading with thier head. I hope it doesn't negatively impact his running. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdhawk4skins Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 Goskins, no doubt the drops were a significant contributor but that was not the only reason we had trouble moving the ball. Granted the weather was the factor in many drops but the pressure the Steelers applied along with the coverage scheme did challenge RG3 more than any other defense last year hands down. Not only did we fail to pass the ball effectively and we can discount a fair amount of that from the drops but we didn't rush the ball well either. It was a poor performance all around for our offense. I'll agree the drops hurt us greatly but RG3 did not look comfortable dropping back in that game, they were getting shots on RG3 and their defense overall seem to disrupt what we could do very well against other defenses. Update: After further review of the game via stats, we can consider the fact that we fell behind in the 3rd 20 -7 so it certainly took away opportunities to run the ball. After further review of the dropped passes two came on our first score where both should have been TDs (Hankerson and Briscoe).However, we eventually recovered from those drops by scoring a TD on that same drive via 4th down pass to Moss. 5 drops were short passes which look to have been minimual gains and not first downs including the last play on 4th down that ended the game. One really hurt was one drop from Moss that would have given us a first down in Steeler territory. Overall, the drops IMO were very frustrating to watch and disrupted the tempo of the game. It did play a role in our inability with moving the ball but I still feel the Steelers applied more pressure and disruption on our offense than any other team last season. I recall those two dropped passes where we still scored thanks to a quick throw down the middle to Moss. I was so proud to see how RG3 recovered from those two drops to still get us the TD. I thought we were destined to win after that drive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchild157 Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 Right JD, 1 well placed loss can be a better training tool than a string of wins, esp. early in the season. Alfred's stats for that game were 13 carries for 59 yds, even though he averaged 4.5yds. The effect of so many dropped balls makes a team have to abandon the run because you are constantly playing catch up. I believe with Morris and Helu's pass catching abilities out of the backfield couple with having 4 te's gives us versatility that we didn't have last year, or at least I'm hoping. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
28skinsman Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 I will have to say this hurry up tempo offence will be the next big thing for the NFL. We are already seeing other teams flirting with it, I think Manning was doing it some this preseason, and Belichick has used Kelly's one word play calls for a few year on and off. CK system will tire opposing D's and also not give them time to see what's coming and then can check down to a new play in one word, it's interesting for sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
28skinsman Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 @ Hawk - That Pittsburg game was all about 11 drops. All we had to do was catch 1/2 those passes and we win the game easily. The nice thing about a runner like AM is that slower conditions will not affect him as much. He will just keep plodding along. He is so strong in his lower boddy and is always leaning forward. My bigger fear for him is the new rule about thee RB leading with thier head. I hope it doesn't negatively impact his running. 10 I saw them explain the new rule and they said it will take all 3 things to draw a flag and that they don't see many flags from this rule. I'm not sure the numbers but they said there would not have been many last season, not to sure about the 3 things needed. Missed the beginning of it but I think its only out of tackle box and they must square up leading with the crown and something else to draw a flag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdhawk4skins Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 Below is a detail explanation of the new rule with the runner leading with his helmet http://www.turfshowtimes.com/2013/3/20/4128736/rule-change-NFL-2013-running-backs Note that the penalty is only possible outside the tackle box. Now how ESPN described the rule on TV was that the runner also must demonstrate he "lined up" the defender when lowering the helmet. From what I recall the way it was explained is that if the runner demonstrated he lowered the helmet while directing against a defender and only then does it becomes a penalty. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 yeah great discussion , this is what we had on the old format until we had to scroll thru the ad spam and trolling/tempertantrums don't want to go any farther on that ,don't want that again. A brief intrusion thanks to a good opening (in a good thread) : People new to ES will find that this board is moderated with little tolerance for gratuitous abusive conduct. Tantrums, flaming, trolling, is quickly handled. Reading, understanding, and following the rules on ES is absolutely paramount to retaining membership. You vets can help the newbies, as we always encourage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
28skinsman Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 hawk I thought the rule stats "both players must be clearly out of the tackle box" ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdhawk4skins Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 hawk I thought the rule stats "both players must be clearly out of the tackle box" ? Sorry I should have stated outside not inside. I'll fix that statement Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
manchild157 Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 Hey Jumbo! great profile Bro!! haha, perfect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
polofourme Posted August 17, 2013 Share Posted August 17, 2013 These preseason games are virtually as bad the PB...worthless. All you are trying to do is avoid injury to your starters..the fans hate the games they are forced to buy,,,the player hate the games for concerns of getting injured In a meaningless game..the players association hates them and even the league is coming around..ONLY the owners want to see these games continue...money. You have to ask yourself how many roster spots on the team are actually open...IMO not more than five. So the vast majority of guys who get on the field you will never see in the NFL..games are really a waste of time, accept for those five players. Who are those five? I guess it depends on your point of view..but I would hope Minniefield is one of them. I really admire what this kid has done and the way he plays. I would not have bet a dime he could make it so close to being all the way back. He had career ending injuries but somehow he battled back..IMO his recovery is as miraculous as Griffins. In any case you can fill in the remaining four or so players. IMO to a very large extent, the only player that really count are the proven starters and you will live or die based on their performance..for the most part...not in every case but for 90 per cent of how a team performs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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