rambler01 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Does this term have the same negative connotation in the NFL as it does in the collegiate ranks? I bring up the topic because we often denigrate a college QB who is the product of a "system". However, couldn't you say that most (if not all) elite QBs at the next level are the product of a system? Flynn stepped in for Rodgers in week 17 to toss 6 TDs against Detroit which created sort of a buzz that Rodger's "elite" numbers might be facilitated from McCarthy's system. When Tom Brady got injured, Matt Cassel stepped in and lead the team to 11-5 throwing close to 4,000 yds, 21 TDs, and a 63% completion rate. Do stats like these indicate that any QB with a "decent" amount of talent could exploit a well oiled system? This year there were three 5,000 yd QBs in Brees, Brady, and Stafford. There were also three 40+ TD QBs in Brees, Stafford, and Rodgers (with Brady also at 39). Are these signal callers really THAT GOOD, or should the system in which they operate be given majority of the credit? 6TDs in one game from a backup, and another backup leading a team to 11-5 aren't feats to sneeze at. Quite honestly, the system in which Sean Payton has implemented in New Orleans is ridiculous ....Brees threw for 460yds and 4TDs against THEE #1 Defense in SF on the road during that playoff game. So my question seems simple; does the QB make the system....or does the system make the QB? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Enter Apotheosis Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 The term system QB usually refers to a guy who is not believed to be good enough to make it as an adequate starter outside of a set of very specific circumstances. It's a vague term but it's simple and reading too far in to it will get you nowhere. So my question seems simple; does the QB make the system....or does the system make the QB? Both. Not much else to say here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Truant Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Interesting. It's a good point that system QBs in college are often dinged, and there are offenses in the NFL that are designed to put up massive passing stats. Spurrier and June Jones are known for having prolific offenses in college, once they find the right players to run their system. Even in college you need the right players to run any specialized offense. It's a perfect storm. A great offensive system can make a good QB appear great. Brad Johnson in Norv's offense comes to mind. Yet a great QB can make a good offensive system look fantastic - Peyton comes to mind. Surrounding talent and a good/great offensive system can make an average QB appear great (Cassel). Now take a good/great offensive system with a great QB and some continuity and we're talking about the guys you mentioned (Brees, Brady, Stafford, Rodgers) and a potentially massive season. I don't think the system deserves the majority of the credit. Flynn is an interesting case. I think his numbers are inflated due to the shootout nature of that game, the relative ineffectiveness of the Lions secondary, a great offense system, and great surrounding talent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kjames35 Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 Interesting. It's a good point that system QBs in college are often dinged, and there are offenses in the NFL that are designed to put up massive passing stats. Spurrier and June Jones are known for having prolific offenses in college, once they find the right players to run their system. Even in college you need the right players to run any specialized offense. It's a perfect storm. A great offensive system can make a good QB appear great. Brad Johnson in Norv's offense comes to mind. Yet a great QB can make a good offensive system look fantastic - Peyton comes to mind. Surrounding talent and a good/great offensive system can make an average QB appear great (Cassel). Now take a good/great offensive system with a great QB and some continuity and we're talking about the guys you mentioned (Brees, Brady, Stafford, Rodgers) and a potentially massive season. I don't think the system deserves the majority of the credit. Flynn is an interesting case. I think his numbers are inflated due to the shootout nature of that game, the relative ineffectiveness of the Lions secondary, a great offense system, and great surrounding talent. I am not sure I agree with your assessment of a system. And I will add if we look at the Redskins offense, WR were open often. The problem I agree is continuity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrFan Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 All Qbs play in a system but only a few of them are successful, it depends on the talent around them. Great systems also need Qbs that can handle them. I don't think Grossman playing for the Saints could do anything close to what Brees has done. The best QBs can generate better systems in terms of complexity. A good system can make a Qb look better than he actually is (Tebow, Smith, Cassel) but won't generate a much better Qb in terms of overall skills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No_Pressure Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 I don't believe in system quarterback in the national football league. In college the entire offense changes dramatically for system QB's. You have certain things you can get away with in college that you can't in the NFL. Tim Tebow was a system QB in college and he was one of the best players in the sport. The Broncos have to change their offense so drastically to play with his skill set in the NFL that some games he was passing for less than 100 yards on more than 20 attempts. They were running QB runs all the time, options, etc. They couldn't tailor their existing system to his abilities because his skill set only worked in a very specific system. I think in the NFL it is more about tailoring a specific type of offense to a player's abilities. Take the west coast offense for example. What kind of quarterback do you need for the west coast? Well that depends on what kind of west coast you're running. The Joe Montana west coast didn't see Joe running all over the field too much. He was mainly a pocket passer who was accurate and had great timing on his throws. The 49ers loved to run a lot of slants and plays which got the ball out of Montana's hands quickly. What kind of west coast does Mike Shanahan run? Well with Elway they gave him a good mix of deep and intermediate routes to throw to with his arm strength, but with his great mobility they were able to move the pocket frequently just like with Steve Young when he took over for Joe Montana. Rollouts, bootlegs, and the effects those have on the running game change the dynamics of the west coast offense. Mike Shanahan went from Elway to Brian Griese who wasn't as good on the run. The Broncos offense displayed fewer rollouts and more dropback passing. Shanahan acquired Jake Plummer and a huge percentage of their plays became bootlegs. You play to the player's strengths. These are all west coast quarterbacks but they run it completely differently. Rax Grissman never really rolled out because he's slow, out of shape, and is liable to throw across his body to the opposite side of the field for a pick 6. If we got Luck or RG3 you would see us moving the pocket constantly. Who today in the NFL is a system quarterback? Maybe you could argue Alex Smith but again, are they changing the offense to some specific bizarre system to play to his strengths, or are they changing their play selection based on what they trust him to do? Tim Tebow is a system quarterback. The Broncos are forced to run a drastically different offense when he is in the game to utilize his skill set properly. It isn't that they're just changing the playcalling habits of their existing offense, they're drastically altering the entire offensive scheme to account for what he is good at. Look at Drew Brees for example. Lets say that the Saints run a west coast offense. If you put Brees in a Joe Gibbs Don Coryell style offense do you think the things that make him great would suddenly disappear? Brees ran a different style of offense in San Diego and while he wasn't as massively successful statistically as he has been in New Orleans, he was a very good quarterback in San Diego. Different systems, he could play in both. One of them might have utilized his skills better, or perhaps one of them had a better supporting cast for him and what he wanted to do. Are there any NFL system QB's other than Tebow? Is there anyone who is so incapable of running XXXX style of offense that you have to change to a completely unconventional form of offense? Are there any great quarterbacks who you can say for a fact are merely a product of a coach's system? We could say that about Mike Shanahan's runningbacks in Denver, it didn't matter who was there they were going to run for 1,000 yards. Is there any team or coach in the NFL who can pretty much take any quarterback good or bad and instantly turn them into a successful player? I don't really think there is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsiaticSkinsFan Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 successful QBs in the NFL usually play in one system for an extended period of time "system qb" should only apply to those gimmick offenses in college. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCClybun Posted January 16, 2012 Share Posted January 16, 2012 There aren't really "system quarterbacks", as it were, in the NFL. There's some guys that perform better in certain offenses (see: Donovan McNabb putting up awesome numbers in Philly, then flaming out in Washington in our version of the WCO, and then flaming out further in the Vikings WCO-ish system) than others, but for the most part, "systems" don't really exist in the NFL, because teams learn how to adapt to them better than they do at the college level. Basically, what you do with any offense, is you work to your quarterback's strengths. The-Rock put it awesomely. There's been a bunch of different quarterbacks who have operated Mike Shanahan's system (including Steve Young, for that matter), but Mike Shanahan/Gary Kubiak/Kyle Shanahan all sought to work with those guys strengths. The game the Packers called for Matt Flynn isn't the same game plan they'd call for Aaron Rodgers; techhnically, the things we'd run with Rex would be different than what we'd run with John Beck (provided Beck could run an offense without being scared out of his mind). Some quarterbacks are better fits for certain offensive schemes than others, but for the most part, "system quarterbacks" don't really exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyGator Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I think most QBs are system QBs, especially the slow ones that the media adores. They enjoy talent galore at virtually every position. Until I see more QBs switch teams and perform well, I will consider most to be system QBs. Brees is the only one in my book to do it successfully, but he enjoyed stacked offenses in both San Diego and New Orleans. Rex has played in 4 systems in 45 or so starts, less than one season per OC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KCClybun Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I think most QBs are system QBs, especially the slow ones that the media adores. They enjoy talent galore at virtually every position. Until I see more QBs switch teams and perform well, I will consider most to be system QBs. Brees is the only one in my book to do it successfully, but he enjoyed stacked offenses in both San Diego and New Orleans.Rex has played in 4 systems in 45 or so starts, less than one season per OC. The good teams aren't in the business of letting great quarterbacks go. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
terpskins10 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 They enjoy talent galore at virtually every position. Please explain how Tom Brady's Super-Bowl winning teams had "talent galore". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JerseyGator Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I'd say that Brady has shown to be one of the few QBs in the league who isn't a system QB. But since he is really slow, he needs a stud OL to do well. Same with Peyton Manning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hitman21ST Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I'd say that Brady has shown to be one of the few QBs in the league who isn't a system QB. But since he is really slow, he needs a stud OL to do well. Same with Peyton Manning. Can you say that though, with the success that Cassel had in New England but not in KC? Manning I would agree with since the Colts fell apart without him, but Brady I would question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Win4us Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 All i know is we need our own system guy. By that i mean young/drafted kid with bookoo potential to sit and soak up Kyles playbook for a few years. This is one area besides finding our "starter" the skins have failed in over the years. kjames35 your sig pics make it very difficult to concentrate btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prototype Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 That's why you draft a highly intelligent QB in the first round, use him as a sponge, and mold him into your system, and let him make it better as he perfects it down the years... *cough RG3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsiaticSkinsFan Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I'd say that Brady has shown to be one of the few QBs in the league who isn't a system QB. But since he is really slow, he needs a stud OL to do well. Same with Peyton Manning. the Patriots run the Erhardt-Perkins offensive system and have since Charlie Weiss came back in 2000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCsportsfan53 Posted January 17, 2012 Share Posted January 17, 2012 I am not sure I agree with your assessment of a system. And I will add if we look at the Redskins offense, WR were open often. The problem I agree is continuity. Don't have any input on the thread title but one thing I do need to know.....who is that girl (or those girls) in your sig? Can't....focus.....on.....anything....else Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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