Giant Penalties

[Yomar]

In the second half the Giants got called on some very questionable penalties, so while there is no doubt we shot ourselves in the foot, the refs gave us some gifts too. I just wanted to throw that out there since a lot of blame for the L is being put on the penalties.

[bubba9497]

the refs in all of the NFL seem to be "flag happy" this year

[RySkins]

I think this was Johnny Grier's crew. His crew is always flag happy and is more concerned with getting their dumb ugly worthless faces on TV than actually calling a good game.

On the penalties...while both teams committed a truckload of them, we commit holds that negate touchdowns and 17-yard runs and personal fouls after 20 yard completions and 3rd down stops. The Giants committed holds on runs for no gain. Our penalties were certainly more backbreaking and stupid than were the Giants'

[Art]

Yomar,

Which were the questionable ones exactly? I know one that I'd not have called. The Joseph punch to Ramsey's face was a bit cheap to me, but that didn't really alter the game at all in any meaningful way. Certainly not like a touchdown erasing play by Samuels or a field position changing play like McCants, or a drive continuing play like Trotter's.

Certainly Gardner, who was held REPEATEDLY across the middle -- you can see his jersey being pulled on at least four replays during the game -- should have been treated a bit more kindly by the officials. Certainly when McCants laid out that one poor Giant and he got up and threw an actual PUNCH at McCants, it could have been called. But, forgiving those as largely inconsequential, please outline the Giants penalties that altered the course of the game stemming from outrageous stupidity.

There's a difference between that type of penalty and a "good" penalty. A good penalty being the sort that comes from saving a big negative play against you -- like a PI that is a sure catch, or a hold that prevents a sack -- or one that gives you a chance to make a play -- like holding a running back to keep him from blocking on a blitz, etc.

No one is really complaining about the penalties the Redskins earned through the normal course of playing a football game. Frustrated that Smoot arrived a TAD early? Sure. But that's not the sort of game-changing, mind-numbingly stupid penalty that most here are really talking about. But, for balance, show if you will -- and you might just be able to -- how this loss isn't squarely on those sorts of penalties.

[Burgold]

There is little question in my mind that the officiating was biased. As Art said, the refs found a way to take many points away from us. Only after creating a situation in which the Giants were given an eighteen point lead were calls made against the Giants. The final indignity was the personel foul that was called on the final field goal. I would be willing to bet that that flag was thrown the moment the official saw the holder drop the snap to ensure that the kicker got a second chance. I saw so many non calls against the Giants it was sickening. The Redskins played well enough to lose, but they were mightily assisted. This game really should be investigated.

[skinsfan44]

Don't forget the non-call of interference on Gardner in the 4th at the 1 yard line. We score a TD there instead of a field goal, and we win that game.

Yes, the Skins made alot of mistakes, but the fact is, that the Giants got away with alot too.

[Muskrat]

Biased or no, you take away the DUMB penalties, on BOTH sides of the ball, for BOTH teams, and the Skins win. We simply had more stupid mistakes than the Giants, and that, in the end, is why we lost.

[Tommy-the-Greek]

What about all the Non-calls? The Giants were guilty of many penalties away from the ball.

[SonnyJ]

I thought flagging Joseph was a legit call.

The roughing the passer penalty they called on Jones earlier deep in Redskin territory was a gift, though. It looked like he was just finishing the play. Ramsey was being taken down by the safety and Jones came in right after that.

The thing about the penalties, though they looked even, was this. The Giants were able to sustain drives and finish them w/o the penalties. Even some of their penalties wound up being trumped by the Redskin penalties (see Trotter, Jeremiah).

The nature and the impact was much greater for the Redskins.

[Burgold]

Sonny J,

The Giants were not able to sustain the drives without the penalties. Would they have completed the third and twenty-somethng. Did they have a scoring drive that wasn't benefited by at least one first down penalty? They may have, but it sure didn't seem like it. They deserved to win because we didn't take the game and made plays that could be called, but the Giants received a tremendous number of gifts that were not reciprocated in the first half. It was even in the second half, but by then the refs helped to spot the Giants an 18 point lead. I usually won't verbalize my feelings about the refs, but when every positive play (it felt that way in the first half) was negated by a penalty then you have to wonder at the timing and legitimacy of the calls

[NavyDave]

We deserved every penalty we were flagged for.

My only question is will the taunting stop or the I'm macho man crap from trotter?

[Reaganaut]

Perhaps the Giants are getting some payback for the way they were screwed last year. I do think that Lavar Arrington is on to something when he says the Skins are doing things that every other NFL team is doing and getting penalized for these things at a much higher rate. This is hard to see in a game where the Giants got many penalties in the second half, but the Jets game was abysmal with only one penalty being called on them the entire game. There is the appearance of bias here.

[SonnyJ]

Burgold,

I didn't state myself very clearly. I meant that on the Giants scoring drives, they didn't commit penalties. They weren't shooting themselves in the foot. The Redskins would drive, but then would commit a penalty (or trip over each other, or take a sack, or drop a ball) that would stall the drive. The Giants offensive penalties came in clumps on drives that were going nowhere. Or, on a certain 3rd and 29 drive, the Redskins would trump their stupid penalties with even stupider ones.

[bubba9497]

I think we are developing a rep among officials (much like the old raiders) that we commit many fouls so we are on a shorter leash than many teams. All borderline calls will draw a flag for us, where other teams would be allowed to play and get fewer flags on those questionable borderline calls

[AzSkinsFan63]

the officiating was a bit ludicrous...

I'm not saying it was terrible or that any of the calls were bogus (nit picky yeah)..but it was a bit one sided in terms of degree of hurting one teams chances.

Did anyone catch the illegal block in the back on Bruce Smith that wasn't called or the block in the back on a kickoff that NY got quite a few yards on..and the guy they blocked was totally gonna make the play.

also that was a late hit on Ramsey when we converted the 2 point conversion..(no call)..

We still had opportunities and should have scored a TD instead of the tieing FG.

[SPare]

Actually, I thought that I saw, on the Trotter penalty, the Giant and he going blow for blow, then when the ref looks, the Giant raises his hands and all that the ref sees is Trotter planting the final blow. It was the classic: we're both at fault, but I'm going to make sure that you get called.

Kinda like what my sister always got away with....

[Yomar]

I was expecting off-setting,,,

Art, I'll let you know as soon as I watch the DVD. The 2nd QB Roughing stands out but my memory isn't that good. What I do know is that I was watching the game with my NYG acquaintance and the bar we always go to, which was a Browns fans bar last year (three total I think), is now a Giants bar, so you can imagine the angst as the Giants zipped out to a 21-3 lead on 3RD AND 28!!!!!!!!!!! Anyway, all I know is that in the second half, I felt a couple of flags saved us and gave us second chances which would not have been there otherwise and the Giants did have 15 penalties and those Giants fans seemed perpetually consternated and consistently perplexed by the tissue in the second half.

[Kornheiser]

Pissed me off Fox didn't show replays of the two penalties of 3&29.

In my opinion the referees were calling everything in sight but at least equally. I think that's shown by the fact that the Giants kept pace with us on the penalties. Some of the roughing penalties against the Giants struck me as petty. But hey, they got there's too.

[Art]

The Jones roughing penalty was horrid, Yomar, there's no doubt about it. But nothing came of that play. In fact, you could argue the series ended up benefiting the Giants because they got great field position after we drove far enough to kick a field goal.

The difference in penalties in this game was that ours actually directly contributed to them scoring and us not scoring. And, there were a half dozen penalties not called on them that could have changed the game. You could argue the long Smoot interference call was questionable against us, but since nothing ultimately came of it you can't really fixate on that call. You can simply look at how the individual calls changed the game and in that mindset there's no question how things went against us in this game.

[Yomar]

I thought the Smoot penalty was crap until I saw the slo mo, he didn't know where the ball was and was a couple beats early, anyway, my point is, regardless of which team shot themselves in the foot more fatally, both made a solid effort to lose the game and the officiating was horrid

[Art]

I agree with your last statement entirely Yomar. What I don't agree with is your attempt when you started this thread to say we can't say we lost the game due to our penalties because the Giants had penalties as well.

You can't take any of the penalties against the Giants and demonstrate how a single one of them had any direct relation to points on the scoreboard. You can for us. Again, if you let everything else be the same but you simply don't have dumb taunting and unnecessary roughness calls on McCants and Trotter the game tips to our favor -- at least in a direct assessment of what those two plays meant on the scoreboard.

The Giants had a lot of penalties to be certain. They just didn't impact the game. Ours did. And we lost because of our penalties. Had we WON the game, the Giants couldn't say they lost because of their penalties. That's the difference and why I don't agree with what you started this thread with.

[Yomar]

Again, I would need to see the game on DVD, but I am all but certain there were some helpful penalties during the come back, I'll have to get back to you on that though, and if I'm incorrect I'll say so

[Yomar]

without having watched it again, I went over to the Play-by-Play to try and remember why I felt that we benefitted from some Giant penalties, and these seem to be the most glaring:

on the first TD drive to make it 21-10 there were three Giant penalties that drive, two that I would deem significant. The first one was a 5 yarder that immediately followed a 10 yard Redskin penalty that changed it from 1st and 20 to first and 15 from the Skins 25, not that first and 15 is a picnic but the Skins made 19 yards to get the next first down so it certainly seemed to be helpful. Then later that drive the Skins picked up a 15 yarder on the Giants that moved the ball from the Skins 39 to the NY 46. Then with the Skins on the 4, the Giants got pass interference moving the ball to the 1 but the next play they stuffed Betts and moved it back out to the 4 and then the Skins scored so that one wasn't such a big deal.

On the Giants possession immediately following that TD drive, the Giants return the kick 35 yards, then get three plays in a row of 6, 5 and 9 yards moving it to 2nd and 1 on the Washington 47 and it looks like they are going to answer. They then proceed to get two 5 yard penalties in a row going from 2nd and 1 to 2nd and 11, they get an 8 yard completion and then get sacked on 3rd forcing them to punt. I thought those were pretty big.

The other Giant penalty that at the time I thought really helped the Skins was the 15 yarder to start the drive that ended in John Hall's 46 yard missed FG attempt. But of course the FG miss offset and advantage the penalty gave.

now whether or not the refs gave us some gifts I need to go back and see, I have to admit I may have been influenced sitting in a bar full of Giants fans who were moaning about the refs the entire second half and I did think that the 2nd roughing the passer penalty was a phantom call and that the other two were both questionable. but regardless of the legitmacy of the penalties, I didn't come away from the game thinking the refs killed us. I felt that they had an overly stimulated trigger finger but I don't feel like the refs stole the game from us and this thread more than anything was a reaction to some of the bellyaching about the refs that immediately followed the game. I felt it was a poorly called game, but they were consistent at least in that both sides got a ton of calls against them, some deserved, some highly questionable (like the Rod Gardner hold and the roughing the passer)