Potential 3 headed backfield..?

[justice98]

We have got to stop going back to 4-5 year old college scouting reports around here. lol

[Going Commando]

The question you have to ask yourself is is there any one thing that pops out at you when you watch him run. For me the answer is no. He does everything ok, but nothing above and beyond what Torain brings. Torain is a gifted runner. His awkward yet elusive and powerful running style is unique. He's a long strides who can evade and run thru and over people if need be. Royster can be replaced with 20 other guys and you'd never know the difference. Nothing special about him.

Don't underestimate the value of having excellent vision and patience within this particular running scheme. A back with ordinary physical attributes can still be super productive if he makes good decisions and runs hard downhill.

Look at Arian Foster for example. Is there anything about him that really sticks out as a runner aside from the fact that he has great hands? He's big and he's super smart and finds the right creases almost every carry. But he's not particularly quick or shifty and fluid and has an ordinary physical skillset for an NFL HB, which is most of the reason why he went undrafted. He was, however, a productive college RB at a top program with a good head for the position. You can draw parallels with Royster.

I like the fact that Royster is a local kd too. And you have to be impressed by his college production. Penn State is no joke and they've had some awesome college running backs in their day. Setting their career rushing records is special.

---------- Post added August-22nd-2011 at 03:07 PM ----------

Posted this in another thread...thought it applied here too.

To be honest, I have become quite enamored with the backs we've acquired in the offseason, and have almost let Torain slip my mind completely. Watch these game tapes and remember why we like this guy:

(Truck Stick Game)

Week 6 vs. Colts

Week 7 vs. Bears

Week 14 vs. Buccaneers

Nice post and nice find. That youtube channel has lots of Redskins cutups on it.

I think the Bears game is an interesting capsule of Torain. He has some nice big play runs after contact. But he has a lot of negative plays. That's the problem. One of the tenents of the ZBS bible is no negative plays in the run game. Torain just commits too many of them for my taste. Plus he also had two fumbles that game. He's too boom or bust when a productive Shanahan running game requires steady, consistently positive play from his RB to open up the rest of the offense.

[ArmchairRedskin]

Arian Foster absolutely sticks out to me in that he he always seems to find the right hole to punch through. He's also not an easy tackle. Once he gets a head of steam you're lucky to get him down. He's got a nice stutter step and even for a runner as big as he is,he's pretty elusive. His Oline makes it really easy on him too because their run blocking is superb.

My whole take on Royster making it over Torain is that he doesn't bring anything to the table that makes him better than Torain. Vision? No. Balance? No. Explosiveness? No Big play ability? Nope. Torain is a gifted runner and Royster is just an OK runner. Thats just the bottom line in my eyes. If you think Royster is better because he gets the fundamentals right, and he's local, then that's fine with me. I'm saying Torain is more dynamic and brings more to the table as a runner. I don't buy any of that "negative play" nonsense. He might have had a few -2, -3 yard plays where the DLine got penetration, but he also gives you those 25, 35 and 55 yard runs. Last year's run blocking wasn't ideal and if he's healthy this year, he should have an easier time of escaping out of the backfield.

In the end, I think there is no way that Royster makes the Roster over a healthy Torain.

[Going Commando]

What I'm saying is that Torain doesn't have better vision than Royster. Torain isn't as decisive a runner either and spends far too much time running east and west.

The no negative plays mantra isn't nonsense--it's fundamental to the zone running scheme. It's one of the most clearly articulated rules of the scheme.

Alex Gibbs, long time OL coach for Shanahan in Denver and the former OC for Gary Kubiak in Houston, teaches this.

Here are some examples of the philosophy popping up in discussions of the scheme:

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/347411-calling-the-shots-justin-forsetts-real-value

The Zone Blocking system is all about medians, not averages. In other words, we will sacrifice the big plays, in order to have no negative plays. A back's ability to grind it out for a whole game and always gaining at least a few yards, is more valuable than a back's ability to hit the home run.

http://www.tomahawknation.com/2009/6/9/900288/understanding-zone-blocking-and

According to the father of zone running, Alex Gibbs, the man who designed the Denver Broncos running game with Terrell Davis (orchestrating one of the biggest super bowl upsets in the modern era), the entire key to the running game is to stay positive:

WE WANT NO NEGATIVES! We look at pass as yes/ no, big/ little, big plays and zero plays (w/ negatives). Out of a certain number of passes, we expect a certain number of failures. That is the nature of the passing game.

But the run game the exact opposite. We want NO negatives. We do not want to run plays that are big/ little, even at the expense of big plays, we do not want it. We want the system where even the "bad" play gains something. The entire objective is to stay out of 3rd and long. We throw out the run plays with which we cannot consistently avoid negatives.

Screw averages. We want medians. The back might average 7 yards per carry, but how often did he get stuffed and put us in 3rd and 10, causing a turnover.

And we do this by eliminating penetration and running a limited number of plays to perfection.

Torain is a worse fit for this offense than Royster. He's not a great one cut runner. He's an east/west runner with average vision who commits a lot of negative plays trying to create big runs. He made some big runs in that Bears game once the defense softened, but the running game lacked the rhythm and precision it's supposed to have in this scheme.

[ArmchairRedskin]

You can go on with all your opinions all you want about what YOU think is better for this team. However, I'm fairly certain, no absolutely certain that if it's between a healthy Royster and a healthy Torain, Torain will be on the roster week 1. Shanahan wouldn't have drafted or brought Torain in if he thought he was a bad fit for this offense. Stop with the ridiculous over evalutions.

[Going Commando]

You can go on with all your opinions all you want about what YOU think is better for this team. However, I'm fairly certain, no absolutely certain that if it's between a healthy Royster and a healthy Torain, Torain will be on the roster week 1. Shanahan wouldn't have drafted or brought Torain in if he thought he was a bad fit for this offense. Stop with the ridiculous over evalutions.

What's ridiculous about it?

Shanahan gave up nothing for Torain the Redskin and he started his career here on the practice squad. He's got almost nothing invested in him and if he was really committed to him then why draft two running backs and trade for another one, all of whom appear to be a better scheme fit than Torain?

So you disagree with my assessment that Torain isn't a good fit for this offense. I gave clear reasons why I think this is with a specific video to watch for examples that support my claim. Why do YOU disagree? Can you give your own assessment based on observation instead of just dogmatically rejecting mine? What makes you so certain Torain will make the team over Royster? Why do you think he's more deserving?

I think he very well could make the roster for week 1 over Royster because Royster still has PS eligibility while Torain does not. But I don't think that means he should make the team over Royster, or that Royster won't simply replace him on the squad later in the season.

[ArmchairRedskin]

I disagree mostly because Shanahan DRAFTED the guy. He brought him here and now he's bringing him back even though he drafted 2 guys and traded for another. Simple as that. I'm not the one trying to outscout the coaches by deeming a guy they drafted and have future plans for as a bad fit for the offense. Pretty arrogant on your part. I also have seen both Torain and Royster run. I've told you that any number of guys could do what Royster does. He's functional, but not special. Torain is more than functional. He's dynamic. Royster brings nothing to the table that any of the other guys don't. What else do you want me to say? I'm not gonna try to pretend to be a scout. I don't decide whether or not I like a beer because I read the ingredients and researched the brewing technique. I decide the beer on taste.

Listen to Kyle's video on Redskins.com. He tells you towards the end that Torain will be back.

[Going Commando]

I disagree mostly because Shanahan DRAFTED the guy. He brought him here and now he's bringing him back even though he drafted 2 guys and traded for another. Simple as that. I'm not the one trying to outscout the coaches by deeming a guy they drafted and have future plans for as a bad fit for the offense. Pretty arrogant on your part. I also have seen both Torain and Royster run. I've told you that any number of guys could do what Royster does. He's functional, but not special. Torain is more than functional. He's dynamic. Royster brings nothing to the table that any of the other guys don't. What else do you want me to say? I'm not gonna try to pretend to be a scout. I don't decide whether or not I like a beer because I read the ingredients and researched the brewing technique. I decide the beer on taste.

Listen to Kyle's video on Redskins.com. He tells you towards the end that Torain will be back.

So you aren't interested in having a discussion, you're only interested in dogmatically touting Torain's value and ignoring direct evidence demonstrating his flaws for this scheme. Pretty ignorant on your part.

Shanahan has drafted a ton of running backs and he cycles them frequently when they stop being effective/prove to be a poor fit. Shanahan drafted Royster too. And more recently. And perhaps it's news for you but draft picks don't work out sometimes. They struggle with injuries or prove to be an awkward fit. Or sometimes both.

I'm curious what exactly was it about Torain's 742 yards last season that inspired such loyalty among the coaches and some of the fan base? Breaking a few big runs against a softened defense doesn't compensate for putting your offense in poor leverage situations 6-8 times a game and fumbling--when he's actually been healthy enough to play. Torain was not an effective runner last season. Once again, he was ranked between 30-33rd in YAR, DVOA, and Success Rate and he didn't have a ton of production to compensate for those low per play rankings. What's so special and dynamic about him?

What does it say about Torain that he's an incumbent whom the coaches are supposedly high on, and he's still probably competing for the third string spot?

Royster is a good player coming into the league with a better resume than Torain and no injury history.