Kyle Shanahan's comments on the 2010 offense

[addicted]

Ok here's what I don't get

While the point about balance is important, 63 to 37 was bad

The fact about last year could very well repeat itself again

We didn't plan to pass that much more last year

It kinda happened and fell into our laps when Portis came out sucking

Then Keiland Williams showed he's not NFL ready

And it wasn't until we saw Torain blow up in week 6 did we ever see a running game worth dedicating our offense around (he repeated the good average in week 7 then missed the next 5 games)

What's important to me isn't that there is balance

Who really cares if the ratio is 80-20 pass or run?

The importance is that what ever we are doing must give us the best chance for success

If either area is complete crap like it was at the start of last year what point is there to force action to that side of the ball?

If the passing games non existant then why pass? Likewise with the rushing game

So now in year 2

Staying put is Torain, enter Helu and Hightower, exit Portis and my guess Williams when TC concludes

What do we have with Torain, Helu, and Hightower? Does anyone really know outside of speculation?

Hightower in AZ was hot garbage, Helu was a fourth rounder, Torain's already injured and we aint even played a down yet

If the rushing game is good and moving the offense then as a fan I say run the hell out of the football

Problem is I don't think it will work like that for us if Becks starting, if Grossman is the gunslinger then I think it will be fine

If the rushing game sucks it up then I am hoping for a 70-30 split between the pass and rushing attack

To me there isn't some magical formula to this game that so many of you are searching for

Go with the hot hand, leave the stats for the nerds

But I won't be surprised at all if the same thing repeats itself this year

I feel much more confident in Moss, Gaffney, and Armstrong handling business in the passing game then what we have at RB this year

Talks cheap folks, show it on the field

[TheRookie]

Would be good to get pass/run ratio from 63%/37% to more like 63%/53%. wait...

[Pedro]

If we went with an OL of Williams/Licht/Mont/Chester/Brown would we be better running the ball than passing (taking out the RBs/QBs etc)?

I think we potentially have an OL a bit better at run blocking this year, our OL is mobile but not the biggest when it comes to standing their ground. That being said season two for Williams, a healthy Brown and a new C is itself enough to take our OL production to another level. Leaving Trent to handle a guy 1 on 1 and not having the center of the line imploding is going to be huge. I'm glad Trent has come into camp determined, love watching that guy get after people in the run game. I'm starting to think he will be an upgrade over Samuels :paranoid:

I do like how explosive Kyle's O can be though. He's a young OC so I figure he needs game time just like the young players we have need it. Going into a season with the RBs we started last season with would make me call more passing plays too though, and that's compounded with how many times our RBs got hit in the back field.

To start the game I wouldn't mind a few explosive, quick scoring drives to put us in pass D though before we settle down to control the clock and give our D a breather.

[darrelgreenie]

We didn't plan to pass that much more last year

It kinda happened and fell into our laps

How do you know what the plan was last year?

You can guess based on Kyle's previous tendency but those tendencies don't support your opinion because he was imbalanced towards the pass even when he was Houston's OC/playcaller.

Who really cares if the ratio is 80-20 pass or run?

Because history has proven that balance is conducive to offensive success.

Talks cheap folks, show it on the field

Amen to that.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Talks cheap folks, show it on the field

There's your bottom line right there.

Hail.

[Oldfan]

DG ~ Just because its obvious doesn't mean it will be applied.

There are many OC/playcaller that are imbalanced with their playcalling.

Kyle's statements suggest that he recognizes his failures in the running game and recognizes they need for more balance.

I didn’t read Kyle’s statement as being an admission that he was primarily at fault for the imbalance. That’s been your position, hasn’t it?

Mike’s scheme is designed for more balance, but he has to have the players who can execute the scheme in order to achieve it. If we can run the ball better, Kyle will call more running plays this season. I'm sure that he would have called more running plays in Houston, if he had had a better running game when he was there.

We've been over the differences between Mike and Kyle as playcallers yet each time you don't respond.

I don’t respond? I have responded that you can't compare the two because they called plays for different teams. Mike's pass/run ratio varied with the talent in his Denver years. You don't want to accept that.

But, yes Mike has been a more balanced player caller within the scheme but Kyle has not.

And Kyle is the OC.

Kyle didn’t have much of a running game in Houston and didn’t have much of one here in 2010. How can you look at stats and judge that he should have called more running plays?

It wasn't a question of capability it was a question of desire or commitment.

We disagree on that. Our running game was well below average last season. The McNabb connections to Armstrong and Santana were the only strengths Kyle had to work with.

Not quite true the Zorn/Sherm Lewis Redskins offense was better in every meaningful passing metric: Comp %, 3rd down conversion, RZ conversion, despite having less talent at the QB, WRs position and OL (2 of the worst OTs in the NFL).

If Mike had stayed with Campbell those 'meaningful" stats you list would almost surely would have been higher than those created by McNabb while other meaningful stats would have declined.

[iMeast]

Well, looking at the acquisitions so far as far as RBs and O line, it sure seems like they want more of the traditional Shanny/Denver running game, which would give whatever QB more breathing space.

Kyle's offensive gameplan demands that the QB follow the plan and not freelance and especially, not get rattled and make boneheaded plays. I am cautiously optimistic.

I will join you in the "cautiously optimistic" line.

HTTR

[Reaper 21]

IMO the pass heavy offense was due to the lack of quality rbs i like torain but he missed a lot of weeks with injury and portis and lj were done before the season started. so that left k. williams for most of the games as the back. I mean if you have to choose between McNabb and UDFA K.WIlliams it really isnt that hard of a choice. just saying.

[darrelgreenie]

http://www.extremeskins.com/showthread.php?315837-Reconcilement-of-the-Shanahan-s-offenses-through-the-numbers-and-outcomes

Mike's pass/run ratio for his career is: 51.8% run vs 48.16% pass.

And actually that number is skewed because it wrongly includes the 2008 season where Jeremy Bates was the playcaller.

That season marked a clear depature from Mike's normal pass/run ratio with a 61.57% pass rate which was 4.12 percentage points higher then Mike's highest pass heavy season.

If you look at the link Mike's pass/run ratios are much closer to consistent then varying wildly.

(Kyle's 3 years, 1 here and w/ 2 with Houston, are north of 60/40 i'll edit with exact number later)

There is no way to know what role Kyle played in causing/not causing the inffectiveness in the running game in Houston.

But, the same pieces were on the roster now as then and now Houston has one of the better rushing attacks in the league.

Jeremey Bates playcalling was a clear departure from Mike' style and I'm quite certain Mike didn't think Bates was incompetent.

One reason Cutler likes Bates so much is Bates likes to air it out. He spreads the field, uses a lot of shotgun and plays multiple wide receivers. During his one season as the Broncos' play-caller in 2008, they threw the ball on 61 percent of the snaps.

But a very simplified version of their differences is this: Mike is closer to smash mouth football and Kyle is closer to pass heavy.

Mike called a much more diverse running game.

Kyle's running game was very basic: inside zone/out side zone.

Mike's was more diverse of course the staple was zone runs but it also featured traps, draws, tosses.

I was saying earlier this thread that our run game playcalling under Kyle was very vanilla.

It basically consisted of inside zone, outside zone and stretch vs Mike's Denver WCO which was multidimensional not just inside-zone outside zone it had pulling, trapping, draws and the toss.

Below are some elements that were missing from Kyle's running game: Inside Trap/Draw

Another element missing: The Toss:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3HtvBdam5A

His emphasis on the run creates favorable passing match-ups.

The emphasis on the run dictates coverages.

Mike also moved the pocket more not just play-action based rollouts and bootlegs but non-playaction dash outs and sprint outs.

The result was an offense that featured well defined and often half-field reads.

The result was an offense easy to execute for the QB.

Kyle's offense is pass first.(and there's nothing wrong with that I'm not saying that Kyle is a bad playcaller. I'm pointing out the difference is their playcalling as I see it.)

In Kyle short career his pass/run ratio is 60/40. (2010 it was actually less then 60/40)

Kyle's offense is more of a straight drop back 5 step passing game.

There is more onus on the QB dropping back and reading out full field progressions.

Its a more QB decision making intensive offense.

Those differences are the big ones that jump out to me.

Mike's offense was alo more multiple w/ formations and had more shifts.

[Oldfan]

DG ~ Mike's pass/run ratio for his career is: 51.8% run vs 48.16% pass.

And actually that number is skewed because it wrongly includes the 2008 season where Jeremy Bates was the playcaller.

That season marked a clear depature from Mike's normal pass/run ratio with a 61.57% pass rate which was 4.12 percentage points higher then Mike's highest pass heavy season.

If you look at the link Mike's pass/run ratios are much closer to consistent then varying wildly.

(Kyle's 3 years, 1 here and w/ 2 with Houston, are north of 60/40 i'll edit with exact number later)

Alex Gibbs has said that it takes three years to gain proficiency in his ZBS. So, let’s compare Mike’s pass/run ratio the first two ZBS years to Kyle’s two years in Houston.

Mike Denver 1995-6 --- 53.99/46.01

Kyle Houston 2008-9 -- 57.24/42.76

That’s about a 3% difference.

You’d like to discredit the 2008 season as an outlier because Jeremy Bates called the plays, but there were other, more plausible reasons than that for passing more that season:

1) Control freak MS, would not permit any OC from deviating from his philosophy; he maintains control of the game plan which, in turn, controls the pass/run ratio;

2) Denver could not keep a healthy RB on the field in 2008;

3) Cutler, Royal and Marshall were a dynamite combination in 2008.

[Hitman21ST]

Mike Denver 1995-6 --- 53.99/46.01

Kyle Houston 2008-9 -- 57.24/42.76

Do you think we'll be closer to Mike's ratio or Kyle's this year?

[darrelgreenie]

Mike Denver 1995-6 --- 53.99/46.01

Kyle Houston 2008-9 -- 57.24/42.76

That’s about a 3% difference.

Yeah about a 3% difference in Mike's favor towards the run.

You’d like to discredit the 2008 season as an outlier because Jeremy Bates called the plays

I discredit the 2008 season because Mike wasn't OC or the playcaller.

but there were other, more plausible reasons than that for passing more that season:

Never made a comment about why Bates passed more there are several plausible reasons.

Again, you've made no comment about all the other differences that I mention between Mike and Kyle as playcallers.

[TheMatt28]

There is no way to know what role Kyle played in causing/not causing the inffectiveness in the running game in Houston.

But, the same pieces were on the roster now as then and now Houston has one of the better rushing attacks in the league.

Actually thats not true, in 2008 Steve Slaton was a 1000-yd rusher and was starter going into the 2009 season. He started to fumble quite frequently and got injured in 2009, killing the Texans ground game. It wasn't until about week 15 or so that Arian Foster emerged out of the practice squad to start. If you look at those games the Texans ran the ball effectively, with Kyle calling the plays.

Also last year Kyle had a lot of different variations in the running game, although it was primarily 18-19 Force (Stretch), 14-15 Strong/Weak (Tight Zone), and some Fox-2 runs. He did manage to incorporate trap/pull plays, if i remember correctly the Torain TD in Philly was a 17-Pull. I don't think Kyle ran any pitches because simply we don't have the personnel for it. Although I do remember seeing some 16-17 pitches where the back could cut back, in the Lions game.

Actually the Torain TD was in fact a Trap play, I just looked at it again.

[darrelgreenie]

You can always find rationals for why a team didn't run the ball more.

But, when you claim that we didn't run the ball more because we weren't good at is an easy out in my opinion.

There were many teams that ran the ball at a lower YPC clip but ran the ball far more often then the Skins.

Our YPC was middle of the pack.

It was our Rushing Attempts that was the second lowest in the league.

Another indicator of our chosen imbalance towards the pass manifests itself in 1st down tendency.

As of week 9 the Skins were tops 5 in the league in 1st down pass attempts.

First downs are typically playcallers choice and we chose to pass the ball a lot on 1st down.

[Oldfan]

..Again, you've made no comment about all the other differences that I mention between Mike and Kyle as playcallers.

What others differences?

[darrelgreenie]

Actually thats not true, in 2008 Steve Slaton was a 1000-yd rusher and was starter going into the 2009 season. He started to fumble quite frequently and got injured in 2009, killing the Texans ground game. It wasn't until about week 15 or so that Arian Foster emerged out of the practice squad to start. If you look at those games the Texans ran the ball effectively, with Kyle calling the plays.

How is it not true that there's no way for myself and oldfan to know Kyle's role in the effectiveness/non of the running game? We don't have any insight into what happened there as weren't not Texans fans.

My other statement was the same pieces were on the roster which you support in your above post as mention that Foster emerged from the practice squad.

Also last year Kyle had a lot of different variations in the running game, although it was primarily 18-19 Force (Stretch), 14-15 Strong/Weak (Tight Zone), and some Fox-2 runs. He did manage to incorporate trap/pull plays, if i remember correctly the Torain TD in Philly was a 17-Pull. I don't think Kyle ran any pitches because simply we don't have the personnel for it. Although I do remember seeing some 16-17 pitches where the back could cut back, in the Lions game.

Your first sentence states my point about the lack of diversity in the running game it was primarily an inside/outside stretch focused run game.

Mentioning 1 or 2 traps/pulls out of an entire season speaks to my point about the difference between Kyle and Mike.

The traps/pulls and tosses were staples of the running game not novelties that appear a few times over the course of the season.

[Oldfan]

DG ~ You can always find rationals for why a team didn't run the ball more.

But, when you claim that we didn't run the ball more because we weren't good at is an easy out in my opinion.

Nothing can be easier than second-guessing a playcaller when offenses misfire.

Our YPC was middle of the pack.

It was our Rushing Attempts that was the second lowest in the league.

If our YPC is middle-of-the-pack, then we know the stat lies because our running game was well below average.

Another indicator of our chosen imbalance towards the pass manifests itself in 1st down tendency.

As of week 9 the Skins were tops 5 in the league in 1st down pass attempts.

First downs are typically playcallers choice and we chose to pass the ball a lot on 1st down.

If so, Kyle might be on the cutting edge with his strategy:

Offenses Run Too Often On 1st Down

[darrelgreenie]

What others differences?

The ones mentioned in the rest of post 34.

---------- Post added August-9th-2011 at 05:26 PM ----------

Nothing can be easier than second-guessing a playcaller when offenses misfire.

Who is second guessing?

Nothing is easier then avoiding a discussion with one liners.

Rather then actually discuss the facts we have your gonna avoid them altogether.

If our YPC is middle-of-the-pack, then we know the stat lies because our running game was well below average.

So rather then acknowledge a stat that goes against your argument you just beg the enitre stat? Ok.

If so, Kyle might be on the cutting edge with his strategy:

Offenses Run Too Often On 1st Down

So are you admitting that the playcalling tendencies are by Kyle's choice?

[TheMatt28]

Your first sentence states my point about the lack of diversity in the running game it was primarily an inside/outside stretch focused run game.

Mentioning 1 or 2 traps/pulls out of an entire season speaks to my point about the difference between Kyle and Mike.

The traps/pulls and tosses were staples of the running game not novelties that appear a few times over the course of the season.

Well I just gave you an example of when Kyle called a trap/pull call. I remember seeing them a couple times per game, but probably 2 or 3 times. Overall though you're right I would like to see more traps/pulls called over the course of each game.

I do think with the drafting of Helu, we'll see pitches become more and more frequent.

[darrelgreenie]

Well I just gave you an example of when Kyle called a trap/pull call, I remember seeing them a couple times per game. Overall though you're right I would like to see more traps/pulls called over the course of each game.

I do think with the drafting of Helu, we'll see pitches become more and more frequent.

Don't tease me bro, I love the pitches/tosses.

One of my favorite plays in football, but the speed in the league minimizes its use.

Mike made great use of the toss/pitch plays as did Holmgren when had Shaun Alexander.

LoL, I just remember one of the few times Kyle actually called a toss you would have thought the world ended they the board was bashing him.(Colts game)

I still say it was good call just poorly executed, if our run blockers put a hat right people it would have been a nice gain. (but isn't that usually the case)

I take it you're a Texans fan?

Either way, welcome its good to have a different perspective.

[Oldfan]

The ones mentioned in the rest of post 34.

I could not follow your post 34 after the first paragraph. I'm not sure who you were debating or what you were saying.

Who is second guessing?

You are, obviously.

So rather then acknowledge a stat that goes against your argument you just beg the enitre stat? Ok.

Would you like to play the fool by contending that the 2010 Redskins had an average NFL running game or admit that your YPC stat lies. That's your option.

So are you admitting that the playcalling tendencies are by Kyle's choice?

No, I'm implying that you are accusing Kyle of what might well be a cutting edge strategy.

[TheMatt28]

Don't tease me bro, I love the pitches/tosses.

One of my favorite plays in football, but the speed in the league minimizes its use.

Mike made great use of the toss/pitch plays as did Holmgren when had Shaun Alexander.

LoL, I just remember one of the few times Kyle actually called a toss you would have thought the world ended they the board was bashing him.(Colts game)

I still say it was good call just poorly executed, if our run blockers put a hat right people it would have been a nice gain. (but isn't that usually the case)

I take it you're a Texans fan?

Either way, welcome its good to have a different perspective.

No I'm not a Texans fan, I'm a Redskins fan. Since I live in Texas I get to see a lot of Texans news, that's why I know a little bit about them.

Pitches are tough, as you said the defensive speed in the NFL is ridiculous but the back has to have great vision too. I'm confident the running game in 2011 is going to be more diverse with Helu/Torain/Hightower leading it.

[darrelgreenie]

I could not follow your post 34 after the first paragraph. I'm not sure who you were debating or what you were saying.

The rest of the post is more structured then the part you quoted.

I talk in detail about the differences between Mike and Kyle as playcallers especially in the types of runs called and how the commitment to the run regardless of the effectiveness helps drive the offense.

You are, obviously

Its easy to dismiss my points as merely second guessing.

But, I think ig you take an honest look at my statements its clear that I'm not second guessing.

I'm not saying oh play X didn't work therefore it was a bad call.

Would you like to contend that the 2010 Redskins had an average running game or admit that your YPC stat lies. That's your option.

Nope, that's not my point at all.

My point is that our running game was better then you give it credit for and we ran the ball at higher YPCthen many teams that ran the ball more often then we chose to.

In fact ran the ball the second fewest times in the league.

This disparity is likey part of the gensis behind Kyle's statement that we need to run the ball more.

No, I'm implying that you are accusing Kyle of what might well be a cutting edge strategy.

I'm not debating wether or not 1st down pass is cutting edge or not.

My point and my only point has been that play call tendencies are by the playcaller's choice.

I'm not speculating about what Kyle would have done, I'm looking at what actually happened.

Its good enough for me that Kyle recognizes and chose to speak about the need to run the ball more.

---------- Post added August-9th-2011 at 05:57 PM ----------

Pitches are tough, as you said the defensive speed in the NFL is ridiculous but the back has to have great vision too. I'm confident the running game in 2011 is going to be more diverse with Helu/Torain/Hightower leading it.

I would love to share your confidence in the running because I really like Hightower and Helu.

Off topic but how would you describe the Houton/Kyle's offense?

And how familiar are you with Mike Shanahan's Denver offenses?

[Enter Apotheosis]

There's no doubt we need to be more successful when we run the ball. That 2010 4.8 ypc average is grossly misleading. Most of our runs were stuffed at the line and every now and then, Torrain would break a 14 yarder. Trust me, if we consistently ran 4.8 yards each carry, you'd never need to pass, right? I read somewhere that our scoring drives, as sparse as they were, were some of the fastest drives in the league (on average). So, how do we slow the game down? Run the ball with more YPC consistency. I'd rather have a 50-50 play-calling with 3.3 YPC than a 60-40 split with 4.8 where 3 out of four runs are stuffed at the line. I hope I'm making sense here. The advantage is longer drives with more scoring drives as well. But the biggest upside in an improved running game is TOP. We all know it keeps the defense guessing when you have a balanced attack.

This is something I've pointed out before and needs to be stressed a lot more when people start wondering why we didn't run the ball more. Our offense lacked the ability to make consistent, positive gains both on the ground and through the air which, in effect, created a disproportionate number of passing situations on second and third downs. Kyle Shanahan will always likely favor the pass to the run but the extreme slant towards the pass we saw in 2010 was more a reflection of an overall team weakness than it is the kind of balance we can expect going forward.

[darrelgreenie]

This is something I've pointed out before and needs to be stressed a lot more when people start wondering why we didn't run the ball more. Our offense lacked the ability to make consistent, positive gains both on the ground and through the air which, in effect, created a disproportionate number of passing situations on second and third downs. Kyle Shanahan will always likely favor the pass to the run but the extreme slant towards the pass we saw in 2010 was more a reflection of an overall team weakness than it is the kind of balance we can expect going forward.

I agree with your thought process and would agree completely if it wasn't for Kyle having a similar pass/run ratio w/ Houston.

For me the reasons why are less important then the actuality: we didn't run ball enough and there is supposedly a recognition and a desire to change/improve.