twa Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 One as far the bible was concerned theft never brought the death penalty, secondly the person who has the abortion may view the fetus as thief robbing them of money, time and energy either way both are devaluing the life of another for their own self interest much like a robber.All men sin Since you wish to bring in the Bible's viewpoint...What do you suppose it is on abortion? btw theft is very different than robbery Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cept One Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 One as far the bible was concerned theft never brought the death penalty, secondly the person who has the abortion may view the fetus as thief robbing them of money, time and energy either way both are devaluing the life of another for their own self interest much like a robber.All men sin Exodus 22:2 If a thief is found breaking in, and is struck so that he dies, there shall be no bloodguilt for him People can justify taking the life of another and that is twisted, if you decide a head of time you can take the life of another all you need is some incitement how can one say they did not plan or want to kill another when they are armed to do so? Your logic is so flawed that it is laughable... Do I want to kill someone? NO! Am I prepared to use deadly force to protect myself or another person in need? YES! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Since you wish to bring in the Bible's viewpoint...What do you suppose it is on abortion? I don't know, why don't you tell us what the Bible specifically says concerning abortion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Harris Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 I don't know, why don't you tell us what the Bible specifically says concerning abortion. the ten commandments maybe? of course, this will just lead us to the point that makes the abortion debate a complete stalemate and therefore useless.....when does life start? :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 I don't know, why don't you tell us what the Bible specifically says concerning abortion. Hey ,he is the Bible using scholar;)....I base my argument on our 'supposed' humanity and 'proffesed' belief in the sanctity of life. But since you are a expert of sorts,how about dropping specifically and giving it a go? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 the ten commandments maybe?of course, this will just lead us to the point that makes the abortion debate a complete stalemate and therefore useless.....when does life start? :doh: Remember I said specifically regarding abortion. Hey ,he is the Bible using scholar;)....I base my argument on our 'supposed' humanity and 'professed' belief in the sanctity of life. Professed belief in the sanctity of life? That's strange considering how often it is the conservatives in the church who are the first to advocate for war, and the death penalty. If we are truly talking about the sanctity of life, then it applies to ALL life, not just the lives that we want. But, again you didn't quote where the Bible specifically addresses abortion as you stated earlier. But since you are a expert of sorts,how about dropping specifically and giving it a go? You're the one who made the claim, the onus is on you. The problem is that you know the Bible doesn't even once mention anything close to abortion...not once. You might go with the child sacrifices but you know that doesn't fit either, so you can't go there, and you know that you can't go to the "Thou shalt not ratsach" because you know that the word just as often means kill as it does murder which kinda tanks your sanctity of life argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 You're the one who made the claim, the onus is on you. The problem is that you know the Bible doesn't even once mention anything close to abortion...not once. You might go with the child sacrifices but you know that doesn't fit either, so you can't go there, and you know that you can't go to the "Thou shalt not ratsach" because you know that the word just as often means kill as it does murder which kinda tanks your sanctity of life argument. Perhaps you need to reread my post "What do you suppose it is on abortion?" Then maybe you can quit deflecting and answer the question I asked ...if you dare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Harris Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Remember I said specifically regarding abortion. you don't consider abortion killing. some do. there's your stalemate, no one is changing their mind. but the carousel ride is always fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Perhaps you need to reread my post"What do you suppose it is on abortion?" Then maybe you can quit deflecting and answer the question I asked ...if you dare LOL seriously twa, you're the one that made the claim that the Bible takes a position on abortion or at least you indicated that it did and that you knew what it is, and all I asked what for you to clarify what the Bible specifically says about abortion, and you were the one who deflected and refused to answer the question, why? Because you know as well as I do that the only thing you can truly say about the Bible and abortion is "the way I interpret certain passages in the Bible I believe that it teaches against abortion", but you cannot say definitively that the Bible is against abortion. Oh and don't give me the sanctity of life lecture, unless you're going to finally apply it to ALL life. ---------- Post added February-3rd-2011 at 12:21 AM ---------- you don't consider abortion killing. some do. there's your stalemate, no one is changing their mind. but the carousel ride is always fun. This isn't about me, this is about twa, he's the one who said that the Bible has a position on abortion, one that he hasn't shown yet, I'm just asking what it is, and he won't show it. I mean if it's there then it ought to be an easy cut and paste, seriously it should be that simple. Doesn't it tell you something that he doesn't tell what that position is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chipwhich Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Asbury I take it you are a vegetarian? Sorry I had to pop in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 LOL seriously twa, you're the one that made the claim that the Bible takes a position on abortion or at least you indicated that it did and that you knew what it is, and all I asked what for you to clarify what the Bible specifically says about abortion, and you were the one who deflected and refused to answer the question, why? Because you know as well as I do that the only thing you can truly say about the Bible and abortion is "the way I interpret certain passages in the Bible I believe that it teaches against abortion", but you cannot say definitively that the Bible is against abortion.Oh and don't give me the sanctity of life lecture, unless you're going to finally apply it to ALL life. Looks like crayfishing still I have consistently presented only secular arguments...in the secular world you lose your right to life by your actions,or in the course of war My opinion is the Bible supports the sanctity of life(though clearly allows for the death penalty or war) and the view it is a individual human being at early development. Care to share yours yet? ---------- Post added February-2nd-2011 at 11:32 PM ---------- Asbury I take it you are a vegetarian? Sorry I had to pop in. The silent screams of asparagus believe I did a thread on that yrs ago Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Looks like crayfishing stillI have consistently presented only secular arguments...in the secular world you lose your right to life by your actions,or in the course of war My opinion is the Bible supports the sanctity of life(though clearly allows for the death penalty or war) and the view it is a individual human being at early development. And it looks like you've mixed your secular and your Bible. Do Jesus' teachings, that we have from him, allow for those things, war and the death penalty? If so which one's? I believe you've merged your secular ideology and your Bible since you claim sanctity, which is defined as "the quality of being holy", I can only wonder what takes away that holiness, sin perhaps...interesting because if it is sin that removes the sanctity of one's life then it would seem that we are all fair game. What about those lives that are taken in the midst of the prosecution of war (90,000-100,000 civilian dead in Iraq alone) where is the cry for the sanctity of life there? That's almost the same number of children lost to abortion during the same time period, and yet the weeping of sanctity is instead replaced by the cold hard collateral damage of war. See my position is that many on the Right who claim the sanctity of human life don't even believe it, and I believe that most who use it are not consistent in it's application...like yours. You cannot claim that life is holy and then in the next breath give reason why it is then ok to destroy that which is holy as if the act of doing so is righteous. Care to share yours yet? I believe that ALL human life is holy, and nothing gives us the right to kill nor murder any human life inside or outside of the womb, and that once the life is outside of the womb that life must be loved and cared for and not neglected, ignored, and left to die of starvation, and without proper medical care. And yet, there are cases when the falleness of this world so envelops us that we see the only response is indeed sin, and rape, incest and the life of the mother sadly fall into that life in darkness, but never would I call it holy. Revelation 13:10 "If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints." Interestingly, the only one who kills with the sword in Revelation is Jesus in the final judgment, not his followers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hubbs Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Just to bring a little focus back to a point that was made recently... what exactly is an assault weapon? I remember stopping to think about that a while back, and I don't think I've ever seen a particularly good answer. (That's not a statement in favor of or opposed to any given law; I legitimately think it's hard to come up with a good definition, whether you want to err on the side of too much gun control or too little.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cept One Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 what exactly is an assault weapon? The term originates from the Sturmgewehr 44 a fully automatic rifle introduced by the Nazi's during WW2. The name was chosen for propaganda reasons and literally means "storm rifle" as in "to storm an enemy position" (i.e. "assault", leading to the modern terminology "assault rifle"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Just to bring a little focus back to a point that was made recently... what exactly is an assault weapon? Yes, you're quite right, I almost forgot what thread this was, sorry for participating in a major derail. I won't post further in that derail. My apologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Harris Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 The term originates from the Sturmgewehr 44 a fully automatic rifle introduced by the Nazi's during WW2. The name was chosen for propaganda reasons and literally means "storm rifle" as in "to storm an enemy position" (i.e. "assault", leading to the modern terminology "assault rifle"). STG 44, best video game gun ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRSmith Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 Since you wish to bring in the Bible's viewpoint...What do you suppose it is on abortion?btw theft is very different than robbery The bible does not speak to the matter of abortion, children often though in the the bible suffer because of the actions of their parents, if one does not have repsect for life one can not ask God to respect their life if they are unrepentant for their actions. Walking around with a weapon prepared to kill another person with a weapon is far different than a person walking along minding their own business and is attacked and in trying to protect themselves strikes out and hits the other in such a way that the person who is attacking them dies. Much like difference between the woman who is ready to have an abortion if she ever ends up pregnant and the woman who gets pregnant is exicted looks forward to the birth and is told by her doctor that the pregnancy will end up killing her so she needs to end it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 DRSmith ...Nice answer,though I would have to add 'directly' to the first line. Intent (or if you prefer the heart) does matter I believe Do those going armed or possessing weapons think it reduces the chance of being harmed? The exercise of preparation is one of prevention I believe...kinda like birth control. If those armed have a true disrespect for life,it will not be long before they find prison their home The instances where there is clear risk of loss of life certainly lend justification to the taking of life(in both shootings and abortion) However we tend to review only one very strictly and have a high burden of proof.there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRSmith Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 DRSmith ...Nice answer,though I would have to add 'directly' to the first line.Intent (or if you prefer the heart) does matter I believe Do those going armed or possessing weapons think it reduces the chance of being harmed? The exercise of preparation is one of prevention I believe...kinda like birth control. If those armed have a true disrespect for life,it will not be long before they find prison their home The instances where there is clear risk of loss of life certainly lend justification to the taking of life(in both shootings and abortion) However we tend to review only one very strictly and have a high burden of proof.there. There are many option one can one take without preparing for violence to protect one's self and others. Blessed are the peace makers The built of arms has done little in the world to lend ease of mind to the population of mankind in fact the fewer weapons of mass destruction the safer we feel America having nukes does not make them feel any safer if Iran has them the safest feeling is knowing they do not have them. When one has a weapon, trains how to use and prepares in their heart to use they can not say I never had any intention of harming another, that is why under the OT law code when considering a death penalty case the use of an instument of metal was considered and could result in the death penalty. When it comes to abortion I always found the focus on the abortion part rather odd when it is the act leading to the need for abortion that should be more closely looked at and it is this part that bible is clear on. Abortion is usually the result of sex outside the marriage bed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 When one has a weapon, trains how to use and prepares in their heart to use they can not say I never had any intention of harming another, that is why under the OT law code when considering a death penalty case the use of an instument of metal was considered and could result in the death penalty. When it comes to abortion I always found the focus on the abortion part rather odd when it is the act leading to the need for abortion that should be more closely looked at and it is this part that bible is clear on. Abortion is usually the result of sex outside the marriage bed I do agree there is a price for being willing to shed blood(or doing so),yet the need for them and it exists and is sanctioned both in the bible and in society. Prevention is clearly preferable in both,but just as rules are in place to both prevent and regulate excessive use of force and the taking of life,there should be so in abortion. Even more so for the innocent....shooting a bystander requires a higher level of justification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRSmith Posted February 3, 2011 Share Posted February 3, 2011 I do agree there is a price for being willing to shed blood(or doing so),yet the need for them and it exists and is sanctioned both in the bible and in society.Prevention is clearly preferable in both,but just as rules are in place to both prevent and regulate excessive use of force and the taking of life,there should be so in abortion. Even more so for the innocent....shooting a bystander requires a higher level of justification. Yes it is clearly set out in the bible both in the OT and NT, now we have the governments or superior authorities who act as the sword to the bad deed and the command for Christians be peaceful people. Two things first off what we may view as innocent as not innocent is far different than how God's views it, since sin results in death and all men are sinners no one can say they are truely innocent and next we have to look at faith, does one have faith God will right any injustices. One of greatest injustices was the killing of Jesus yet God allowed to happen and fixed it. Jesus instead of stopping Peter would have through man's eyes been totally justified in fighting those who came to arrest him, but instead he stopped Peter and by having a weapon present showed us the damage that can be done by walking around armed. One when lives and dies by faith they can be made alive by such faith, when one relies on a weapon for life they can die a violent death and there is no promise of life that comes from a weapon. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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