WP: Virginia 4th-grade textbook criticized over claims on black Confederate soldiers

[CrabR]

I think it's pretty clear that slavery was the main reason why the civil war occured. It just wasn't the main reason why many confederate soldiers fought.

It was not the reason Union soldiers fought either. The highest Union desertion rate was after the Emancipation proclamation. Slavery was the underlying root cause but not the main reason why soldiers on both sides fought. especially in the beginning . Missouri, Kentucky Maryland Delaware and DC were slave states that remained with the union. Union officers owned slaves.

I think Navydave has watched Reefer Madness to many times. Alcohol is 10x worse than pot

[Homercles82]

Slavery was a reason the war was fought but to think that the North or that Lincoln were innocent in causing the war you are overlooking the political climate at the time.

Money was probably the main factor. The Northern states, while being industrious and densely populated, were not the main creators of money nor tax revenue. The South with it's cotton and tobacco crops were making a majority of tax revenues along with tarrifs imposed by the Federal government.

And for those who feel Lincoln was anti-slavery, pro-african american, I suggest you read transcripts of the Lincoln/Douglas debates and look into Lincoln's yearning for colonialism for blacks who were free and enslaved that lived in the states. He also idolized Henry Clay and his teachings on African Colonization where the United States would send back slaves to Africa because he believed that Black and Whites should not be integrated.

[Rocky21]

Y'all need to remember that most rebels didn't own slaves. JMS is right. Most went to battle for loyalty to their state. There were also a number of political events that separated the North from South beforehand. Basically, the war probably wouldn't have happened without slavery, but slavery wasn't the only reason.

Quick trying to cloud the issue with facts. Let's keep it simple for the simple minded. Everyone is the South liked enslaving people. Slavery = bad.

[grhqofb5]

Correct. Remember 'The shot heard round the world'?

That was Lexington, April 19, 1775. Regarded as the beginning of the war

.

Also remember WWI, and the assassination of the archduke.

[WhoRUSupposed2Be]

I went to school in fairfax county and I was taught:

1 - Blacks fought for the south in large numbers

2 - Slavery was a very small issue in the civil war and it is inaccurately sited as a central cause of the war.

then I went to college and took history courses and realized that my southern state's history classes should be renamed "what we wished happened, by Virginia"

Do tell Destino

[Henry]

It was not the reason Union soldiers fought either. The highest Union desertion rate was after the Emancipation proclamation.

The desertion rate of both armies rose as the war went on. There is nothing to indicate a specific cause for this other than the men just got sick of war. Here's an interesting study on the subject:

http://www.civilwarinteractive.com/forums/view_topic.php?id=62&forum_id=1

[Henry]

And for those who feel Lincoln was anti-slavery, pro-african american, I suggest you read transcripts of the Lincoln/Douglas debates and look into Lincoln's yearning for colonialism for blacks who were free and enslaved that lived in the states. He also idolized Henry Clay and his teachings on African Colonization where the United States would send back slaves to Africa because he believed that Black and Whites should not be integrated.

Lincoln was absolutely anti-slavery. He wasn't necessarily pro-black, and he wasn't sure what to do with blacks once they were freed (though I don't think he was as set on the idea of sending slaves to Africa as you suggest), but there is no doubt he was anti-slavery.

And funny, if you don't think slavery was THE topic on everyone's minds during the antebellum period, read those debates.

[Homercles82]

Lincoln was absolutely anti-slavery. He wasn't necessarily pro-black, and he wasn't sure what to do with blacks once they were freed (though I don't think he was as set on the idea of sending slaves to Africa as you suggest), but there is no doubt he was anti-slavery.

And funny, if you don't think slavery was THE topic on everyone's minds during the antebellum period, read those debates.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Colonization_Society#Lincoln_and_the_ACS

Also, maybe not anti-slavery but I should have said anti-black. He said multiple times that he did not beliebe whites and blacks were equal. In the LIncoln/Douglas debates he said he agreed with Douglas that whites were superior in every way to blacks and the two could not be integrated.

[greenspandan]

haha i love confederate apologists.

[Henry]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Colonization_Society#Lincoln_and_the_ACS

I'm not saying he didn't consider it an option. But I don't think he thought it was the only option.

Also, maybe not anti-slavery but I should have said anti-black. He said multiple times that he did not beliebe whites and blacks were equal. In the LIncoln/Douglas debates he said he agreed with Douglas that whites were superior in every way to blacks and the two could not be integrated.

I assume you mean this?

My declarations upon this subject of negro slavery may be misrepresented, but cannot be misunderstood. I have said that I do not understand the Declaration to mean that all men were created equal in all respects. They are not our equal in color; but I suppose that it does mean to declare that all men are equal in some respects; they are equal in their right to “life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.” Certainly the negro is not our equal in color—perhaps not in many other respects; still, in the right to put into his mouth the bread that his own hands have earned, he is the equal of every other man, white or black. In pointing out that more has been given you, you cannot be justified in taking away the little which has been given him. All I ask for the negro is that if you do not like him, let him alone. If God gave him but little, that little let him enjoy.

If you read the entire speech, you will realize that he is saying personal feelings about blacks are irrelevant. They are people and therefore should be granted the same constitutional rights as anyone else. Here is a bit more of that passage:

One more thing. Last night Judge Douglas tormented himself with horrors about my disposition to make negroes perfectly equal with white men in social and political relations. He did not stop to show that I have said any such thing, or that it legitimately follows from any thing I have said, but he rushes on with his assertions. I adhere to the Declaration of Independence. If Judge Douglas and his friends are not willing to stand by it, let them come up and amend it.

The very worst you can say about Lincoln was that he may have harbored some personal prejudices against blacks. But even then he did not believe those prejudices should be acted upon by the government.

[greenspandan]

after 150 years, southerners are still bitter that lincoln freed the slaves.

[Homercles82]

after 150 years, southerners are still bitter that lincoln freed the slaves.

I think this is closed minded and meant to stir the pot more.

[Henry]

after 150 years, southerners are still bitter that lincoln freed the slaves.

No. I think they are still wrestling with what happened. I think some are trying to find honor and dignity in their regional history. I do understand that, but I don't agree with whitewashing history in order to accomplish it.

[Homercles82]

I'm not saying he didn't consider it an option. But I don't think he thought it was the only option.

I assume you mean this?

If you read the entire speech, you will realize that he is saying personal feelings about blacks are irrelevant. They are people and therefore should be granted the same constitutional rights as anyone else. Here is a bit more of that passage:

The very worst you can say about Lincoln was that he may have harbored some personal prejudices against blacks. But even then he did not believe those prejudices should be acted upon by the government.

Thanks for the quotes. I am not saying he didn't want to free slaves, I am saying he was anti-black. He had prejudice against blacks and felt whites were superior. He was against government sanctioned slavery.

W.E.B. DuBois often criticized Lincoln for the way he handled abolition. Many people feel that Lincoln only abolished slavery as a political move to end Europe's growing support of a Confederate country. Europeans and many Americans wondered at the time why a war was started to end slavery when slavery was ended in many countries without one.

[Homercles82]

No. I think they are still wrestling with what happened. I think some are trying to find honor and dignity in their regional history. I do understand that, but I don't agree with whitewashing history in order to accomplish it.

Us southerners are not allowed to take honor and dignity in our heritage and regional history. Truth be told the country was being supported by southern labor which was being supported by slave labor.

I take honor and dignity in the hard work and suffering by all peoples during the earlier years of our country regardless of color. Not every white man or woman in the south lived on gaudy plantations sipping lemonade while fanning themselves and watching the slaves pick cotton.

[Henry]

Thanks for the quotes. I am not saying he didn't want to free slaves, I am saying he was anti-black. He had prejudice against blacks and felt whites were superior. He was against government sanctioned slavery.

W.E.B. DuBois often criticized Lincoln for the way he handled abolition. Many people feel that Lincoln only abolished slavery as a political move to end Europe's growing support of a Confederate country. Europeans and many Americans wondered at the time why a war was started to end slavery when slavery was ended in many countries without one.

If you read the Lincoln/Douglas debates, Lincoln says numerous times that he felt the framers of the Constitution did not address slavery because it was believed that slavery would die out on it's own eventually. Lincoln felt that this belief was what kept the Union in tact for the first 90 years. And that his purpose was to halt the spread of slavery so that it could die of natural causes in the South, as the framers intended.

There is no way of knowing if this would have worked or not, because the South seceded before he even had a chance to take office. I find it hard to blame HIM for not even being given the opportunity.

I will say that once the South seceded, I'm glad he took the actions he did. I think preserving the Union was the right call, for a variety of reasons. I think emancipating the slaves was the right call. He may not have handled everything perfectly, but nobody would have in that situation.

[Prosperity]

I take honor and dignity in the hard work and suffering by all peoples during the earlier years of our country regardless of color. Not every white man or woman in the south lived on gaudy plantations sipping lemonade while fanning themselves and watching the slaves pick cotton.

Wasn't the South's population about 1/3 slaves? That's a lot of people.

There's no honor or dignity in treason, losing, or slavery, and especially not losing a treasonous war for slavery (And yeah people say a lot of the South was just finding for their region. BFD., The South started the war, it's not like they were defending themselves from foreign invaders)

sorry dude, make a new history, your old one isn't very good.

[CrabR]

The desertion rate of both armies rose as the war went on. There is nothing to indicate a specific cause for this other than the men just got sick of war. Here's an interesting study on the subject:

http://www.civilwarinteractive.com/forums/view_topic.php?id=62&forum_id=1

Per the war of the Rebellion a 70 vol [128 books] set published in 1880 states desertation rates spike in the Army of the Potomac after the emaciation took effect in Jan 1863

I used to have this set of books and it iw everything published by the army and bft on both sides relatgeedin to teh war.

I might sugget some books by Shelby Foote and a set called Letters from Johnny Reb and Billy Yank, THe best by far is

the war of the Rebellion a 70 vol [128 books] set published in 1880

the war of the Rebellion states desertation rates spiked in the Army of the Potomac after Jan 1 1863

I used to have this set of books and it has everything published by the army and gvt on both sides regarding the teh war.

The Army of then Potomac was in winter camp in Stafford hights va. In reports in the volume after the Battle of Fredisksburd vol [the one with the mud campaign]Officers talk about the high rate of desertions. The spike is fact. Do they say why ?no. Just a fact that if happen

Desertions went up as the war dragged on especially on the Southern side.

You are under the impression all the union soldiers joined to free the slaves, when in reality they joined to preserve the union. Emaciation was not an issue for them till the Proclamation . Of coarse the Emancipation only freed the slaves in the south not in the north

Pro and anti slaverty was not defined by the CSA/USA boarder

[Homercles82]

If you read the Lincoln/Douglas debates, Lincoln says numerous times that he felt the framers of the Constitution did not address slavery because it was believed that slavery would die out on it's own eventually. Lincoln felt that this belief was what kept the Union in tact for the first 90 years. And that his purpose was to halt the spread of slavery so that it could die of natural causes in the South, as the framers intended.

There is no way of knowing if this would have worked or not, because the South seceded before he even had a chance to take office. I find it hard to blame HIM for not even being given the opportunity.

I will say that once the South seceded, I'm glad he took the actions he did. I think preserving the Union was the right call, for a variety of reasons. I think emancipating the slaves was the right call. He may not have handled everything perfectly, but nobody would have in that situation.

There is a quote, maybe you know it, of one of the founding fathers who felt that if they included language in the original constitution outlawing slavery that they would lose the support of southern states and the brand new country would fall apart.

Again, I am not saying that anyone could have handled it perfectly, I just wanted people to know that Lincoln was not as perfect as we paint him out to be. I feel Lincoln wanted slavery to be seen as the main issue for the war when he really had economic reasoning behind it. Secession of a state from the United States, though not explicitly outlawed in the Consitution, was seen as something states had no right to do and Lincoln did not want to separate that economic force from the United States.

[Homercles82]

Wasn't the South's population about 1/3 slaves? That's a lot of people.

There's no honor or dignity in treason, losing, or slavery, and especially not losing a treasonous war for slavery (And yeah people say a lot of the South was just finding for their region. BFD., The South started the war, it's not like they were defending themselves from foreign invaders)

sorry dude, make a new history, your old one isn't very good.

Despite being slaves their hard work was for nothing? I am not making new history. The South started the war with a fired shot but the north provoked a war with economic policies and hostility. The North did not want Southern states to secede from the United States despite the fact that the precedent for seceding was set by colonies from the oppresive economic policies from Britain. You refuse to see both sides of the argument do you not?

[Prosperity]

He may not have been perfect, but for his era he was pretty ****ing awesome

[Homercles82]

He may not have been perfect, but for his era he was pretty ****ing awesome

I am not asking for him to be perfect. I don't think he was perfect but you have some who do think he was perfect.

[Henry]

Again, I am not saying that anyone could have handled it perfectly, I just wanted people to know that Lincoln was not as perfect as we paint him out to be. I feel Lincoln wanted slavery to be seen as the main issue for the war when he really had economic reasoning behind it. Secession of a state from the United States, though not explicitly outlawed in the Consitution, was seen as something states had no right to do and Lincoln did not want to separate that economic force from the United States.

I think Lincoln, and the North in general, fought the war to preserve the Union. In fact, Lincoln had to make a point of saying that the war was NOT about slavery because, as has been pointed out in this thread, many Northerners didn't give a damn about the slaves and there were several slave states still with the Union. If anything, I think Lincoln had to bide his time in order to use the war to free the slaves. If he was using slavery to justify the war he'd have issued the Emancipation Proclamation after Sumter, not Anteitam.

If anyone thought Lincoln's motives were based primary on the issue of slavery it was the secessionists. Just read their Declarations of Causes for secession, which have been linked many, many times on this forum.

[Henry]

Despite being slaves their hard work was for nothing? I am not making new history. The South started the war with a fired shot but the north provoked a war with economic policies and hostility. The North did not want Southern states to secede from the United States despite the fact that the precedent for seceding was set by colonies from the oppresive economic policies from Britain. You refuse to see both sides of the argument do you not?

The right to secede will be debated until the end of time. Ultimately that debate was settled on the battlefield and I for one am glad the Union side won it.

[Homercles82]

The right to secede will be debated until the end of time. Ultimately that debate was settled on the battlefield and I for one am glad the Union side won it.

Ultimately shouldn't we all be? I know I am.