Anyone else fed up with Japanese denial of WWII wrongdoing?

[redman]

This article got me PO'd given the portions I've bolded:

Smithsonian Unveils Restored Enola Gay

Mon Aug 18, 3:38 PM ET Add U.S. National - AP to My Yahoo!

By BETH POWELL, Associated Press Writer

DULLES, Va. - The Smithsonian Institution (news - web sites) unveiled a restored Enola Gay on Monday, making the B-29 bomber that helped end World War II the centerpiece of the new annex to the Air and Space Museum.

AP Photo

Reuters

Slideshow: Historic Atomic Bomb Aircraft Rebuilt

Bomber 'Enola Gay' Goes on Display

(AP Video)

The restoration, the result of 300,000 hours of work over nearly 20 years, made the B-29 bomber look as it did on Aug. 6, 1945 when it dropped an atomic bomb on Hiroshima, Japan.

Over the years, some parts of the Enola Gay were replaced in normal use and others were lost or taken by collectors, said Dik Daso, the Smithsonian's curator of modern military aircraft.

The Enola Gay has been restored so completely that it would probably start if fueled, officials said. But because components are so old it, wouldn't be flight worthy. Curators restored each part to the way it looked on "mission day," down to particular radio tubes used at the time, Daso said.

The plane will be available for public viewing on Dec. 15, when the Udvar-Hazy Center opens near Washington Dulles International Airport.

Museum officials avoided the controversy that grounded a 1995 exhibit, which discussed the effects of the bomb on the Japanese people.

Hideki Yui of Japan Broadcasting Corp., one of many Japanese media members attending Monday's event, said there is a lot of interest in Japan in the new exhibit.

"Japanese survivors want to focus attention more to the damage of the atomic bomb," he said.

The museum's interest in avoiding the subject is understandable, he said, because the U.S. Military and Congress oppose it.

The center will house 200 aircraft and 135 large space artifacts that can't be displayed at the Air And Space Museum in Washington because of their size, museum director Gen. Jack Dailey said. The museum in Washington holds only about 10 percent of the Air and Space collection, he said.

Visitors will see the outside of the Enola Gay, which will be propped 8 feet off the ground to leave room to display other aircraft under its 141-foot wingspan, Dailey said.

Visitors won't be allowed inside the aircraft, but the plane has been photographed from 144 angles, allowing the Smithsonian to create a virtual tour of the interior.

The exhibit focuses on the restoration process and the technical advances of the B-29 bomber in its time.

Daso said it's important for Americans to see the plane and realize its importance.

"This airplane is part of our history and part of who we are," he said.

These are the same clowns who raped, pillaged, murdered, and experimented upon hundreds of thousands if not millions of innocent civilians and disarmed POW's. Were it not for the Holocaust in Europe, this would be regarded as unforgivable. But they've never accepted responsibility for this as a nation, and they have the gall to slam us on the two atomic bombs - the use of which in all likelihood saved tens of thousands of American lives and hundreds of thousands of Japanese lives by avoiding an invasion of mainland Japan.

I still despise Clinton for apologizing to them for using the bombs. Sorry, I had to vent, but I'm sick of nations playing us for fools.

[Ghost of]

Yes, the Japanese are the complete opposites to Germany in terms of their perspective on World War II. The Japanese were savages, in many ways, their regular troops were more brutal than the Germans. After all, it was German SS units and recruited locals that carried out the large scale murders in the main. The Wehrmacht was not actively involved in the Holocaust, whereas the Japanese regulars raped and killed their way through China and the rest of Asia.

I don't hold the current Japanese responsible for that, but to not acknowledge it is not an encouraging sign, and reveals how self-centered they are as a culture. People talk about Americans, but we are generally able to admit where the nation went wrong in the past(sometimes to a fault) but for the Japanese it's all about them. And why don't they talk about Dresden or Hamburg or Tokyo? More people were killed in those bombings than at Hiroshima or Nagasaki(despite attempts to inflate the casualty numbers) and more people were killed in Nanjing than at either of those bomb sites.

But oddly they don't really address Nanjing do they?

[inmate running the asylum]

Redman,

I agree with you 100%. The Japanese at the time were evil SOB's and got what they deserved. :

Unfortunately, of those that survived, only a handful of them were tried and executed after the war for their war crimes. Even at the Nuremburg trials, only about 20 Nazis were eventually executed for war crimes. Considering how many millions of innocent people these Japanese and German ****s were responsible for killing, some of them got off easy. :mad:

[Henry]

Took me 30 seconds to find this site about the Rape of Nanking .

Between December 1937 and March 1938 at least 369,366 Chinese civilians and prisoners of war were slaughtered by the invading troops. An estimated 80,000 women and girls were raped; many of them were then mutilated or murdered.

THE SAVAGERY OF THE KILLING WAS AS APPALLING AS ITS SCALE.

Thousands of victims were beheaded, burned, bayoneted, buried alive, or disemboweled.

To this day the Japanese government has refused to apologize for these and other World War II atrocities, and a significant sector of Japanese society denies that they took place at all.

One wonders if there is a museum in Tokyo that covers this in any amount of detail.

[Golgo-13]

The Japanese culture is one of the most closed, bigoted and inherintly racist societies on earth. As you have mentioned many of their atrocities were as bad or worse (not sure how you can actually "rank" some of these awful things) than what the Germans did and yet the get off almost scott free in the eyes of history compared to Germany. I saw a sticker on a car that PISSED me off the other day at the Home Deopt on Sterling. It said "No more Hiroshimas," it was from the peace park in Hiroshima, Japan. I wanted to take out a sharpie and write over the top of it "No more Pearl Harbors motherfvcker!!" What a joke.

[Phat Hog]

I have absolutely nothing against the Japanese, but I would have 3 words for all those that wanted to focus only on the effects of the A-bomb…

YOU WERE WARNED ! !

[Soliloquy]

Originally posted by redman

the use of which in all likelihood saved tens of thousands of American lives and hundreds of thousands of Japanese lives by avoiding an invasion of mainland Japan.

Heck, try hundreds of thousands and MILLIONS of lives instead. The early casualty estimates of the invasion planners thought that at least that many would die, with millions more injured.

[redman]

I'm not commenting on now-living Japanese, except insofar as they have made a decision as a nation to deny - no, actually refuse to even acknowledge - their horrendous wrongdoing during WWII. Remember, their version of WWII lasted well over a decade, beginning with their unprovoked invasion of Manchuria in 1932.

I seem to recall reading something that indicated that Japanese history books used by school children only cover WWII insofar as they mention the atomic bombs, or something to that effect. As much as we consider them an ally and value their support on issues such as terrorism and North Korea, this stuff is really hard to take.

[Darth Tater]

Originally posted by Henry

Took me 30 seconds to find this site about the Rape of Nanking .

One wonders if there is a museum in Tokyo that covers this in any amount of detail.

The Nanking 'action' appalled Hitler.

[riggo66]

The casualty rate expected from the invasion and defeat of Japan was soo high that the body bags ordered in preparation were still being used at the end of the Vietnam War.

I know a vet who was in the ETO who didnthave enough points to send him home after VE day so he was destined to take part in the Japa invasion. Suffice it to say he ws more than happy Truman dropped the bomb and so am I.

Japan should never be allowed to forget or hide from the atrocities they commited during WWII

Im really looking forward to working The Air and Space Museum into my Hogfest trip

[codeorama]

First, the US was totally right in nuking Japan, it obviously saved tons of American and Japanese lives based on what would have happened if there were an invasion.

However, I can understand to a SMALL degree SOME of the anti nuke statements that are made from present Japenese. You have to admit, I doubt that we even fully realized what the longterm affects would be.

Also, it is annoying that they ignore the wrongs of their past.

[OURYEAR#56]

i think America was wrong in nuking Japan. It's ironic in some sense; the country that ushered in the nuclear age is scared to death that somebody just as crazy as Harry Truman would nuke us back. Violence only begets violence.

[Darth Tater]

In truth, events like Nanking do not justify our decision and we did not fully know the full effects of our action. Still, if I went back to 1945 and had an audience with Truman, I'd tell him to drop the bomb.

We were preparing for an invasion with conservative expected casualties that exceeded all casulties that we had suffered in the war to that point by several orders of magnitude (all fronts). Not to mention the scores of Japanese casulties (which may have exeeded Hiroshima and Nagasaki combined), the possible murder of POWs and other non-Japaneses non-combatants that was threatened due to invasion and the possibility that Tokyo would become Berlin-East.

[Kilmer17]

You would have rather seen hundreds of thousands of American Soldiers die?

[redman]

Originally posted by codeorama

First, the US was totally right in nuking Japan, it obviously saved tons of American and Japanese lives based on what would have happened if there were an invasion.

However, I can understand to a SMALL degree SOME of the anti nuke statements that are made from present Japenese. You have to admit, I doubt that we even fully realized what the longterm affects would be.

Also, it is annoying that they ignore the wrongs of their past.

code-

I can "understand" Germans hating Jews and supporting the Holocaust if they were brought up thinking that Jews were Christ-killers who conspired with the nation's enemies and held all the power in major financial institutions, etc. What I'm interested in is truth, not understanding, and the truth here is that the Japanese were done a great service by getting nuked. In all likelihood, they would have been destroyed - and I mean literally destroyed - as a nation and a culture if we'd had to invade them. Every single one of them was told to fight to the death by the Emporer a month before the bombs were dropped.

And it's more than merely annoying. It's a major cultural character flaw if you will, that's the equivalent of Germany (not some Germans) denying the Holocaust. As a result, the Japanese have a terrible lack of credibility on moral issues until they rectify this. For example, what do we care about their opinions as to how to deal with N. Korea, or human rights in China? Who are they to comment?

[redman]

Originally posted by OURYEAR#56

i think America was wrong in nuking Japan. It's ironic in some sense; the country that ushered in the nuclear age is scared to death that somebody just as crazy as Harry Truman would nuke us back. Violence only begets violence.

Japan has not engaged in war since those two bombs were dropped. And the crystal clear view we gave to the world - twice - about the horrors of nuclear weapons lead to the longest period of peace between world superpowers in centuries, aka the Cold War.

How did this violence beget violence?

[Tommy-the-Greek]

Code, Why the hell should we care about the side effects?

They started the war. They knowingly awoke the sleeping giant. And we stomped on there heads accordingly.

What the Japs did to all the pacific rim nations as well as the asian mainland was as bad or worst then what Hitler did. Remember the Germans kept records, the Japs didn't. Historians can only estimate the toll the Japs wreaked on the civilian populations. They tortured our captured troops with no regard to treaties regarding the treatment of POWS. The Germans atleast treated POW's with some respect. The Japs cut our guys heads off and left them to rot in a jungle.

Code, I have an uncle who was in the pacific theater. He landed on alot of islands. He told me 7 out of 10 or even higher was the death count on most landings. He stories he told would make you sick to your stomach. The Japs were savages no ifs ands or butts about it. He told me each landing they made as they got closer to the Jap mainland the ferocity of there defense increased exponentially.

The war was over for the Japs when we captured Okinawa. Some will argue even before that. They would not surrender. We fire bombed tokyo with a higher death toll then hiroshima. Did you know that? They still didn't give up. Truman had 2 choices. We could land on the mainland and suffer huge losses in the millions. Which meant we would have to fight women and children and old men who had there pointed sticks all ready for us. This would have been a slaughter of a magnitude never seen before in human conflict. Or he could drop a few a=bombs and hope they finally surrendered. He made the right choice.

If we could do it all over again I wish we had 10 instead of two and we should have dropped them before Okinawa. Sure the bombers would have had to go one a one way mission and plan to crash land in China. Too bad we didn't have the bombs when doolittle made his raid.

Anyone who feels bad for the Japs should talk to a few old american marines. Then talk to some old chineese villagers who made it thru the slaughter. If you ask me they didn't even come close to getting what they deserved. And the war crimes trials in Japan were a joke. We were so worried about maintaining stability after the war the victims of the Japs never got real justice. The only semblence of Justice was those 2 bombs and the tokyo fire bombings. Not enough in my opinion.

[OURYEAR#56]

You're being dramatic Kilmer. All we had to do was take out the Emperor, the little sh*t. One sniper bullet, and the whole Asian pacific affair would have ended. We should have struck what the japanese people derived their power from. We would never had to worry about Cuba, Russia, or Osama. Consequentially thousand of soliders died anyway.

[Kilmer17]

You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. The Japanese would have fought to the last person to defend their land and their Emporer, dead or alive.

[Tommy-the-Greek]

Originally posted by OURYEAR#56

i think America was wrong in nuking Japan. It's ironic in some sense; the country that ushered in the nuclear age is scared to death that somebody just as crazy as Harry Truman would nuke us back. Violence only begets violence.

I just lost all respect for you. You are a moron. You have no knowledge of history period. Go talk to some WW2 marine vets of the pacific theater. Go talk to some old chineese villagers or people from any of the pacific rim islands. Ask them what the Japs did. Ask them how they started the war 7 years before Hitler. Ask them and they will tell you the truth. Some liberal professor with there head so far up there arse you could roll them down the street has given you the wrong info. I really pitty how little you really know.

[redman]

Originally posted by OURYEAR#56

You're being dramatic Kilmer. All we had to do was take out the Emperor, the little sh*t. One sniper bullet, and the whole Asian pacific affair would have ended. We should have struck what the japanese people derived their power from. We would never had to worry about Cuba, Russia, or Osama. Consequentially thousand of soliders died anyway.

This is the most ignorant thing you've written. If we killed the Emporer - who Japanese regarded as a living deity - they would never have surrendered. That's why, for example, Jimmy Doolittle's raiders didnt' bomb the Emporer's palace even though they flew right over top of it.

The one condition that they insisted upon to agree to surrender was that the Emporer not be arrested after the war and charged with war crimes. Otherwise they would not have surrendered.

[Darth Tater]

OURYEAR56,

If we had killed the emporer like you suggest here, not only would we have had to invade, we probably would have had to drop several more nukes.

[Ghost of]

As for long-term effects of the atom bombs, they were actually minimal. Oh, there were effects, but scientific surveys by non-anti-nuke organizations show that the radiation poisoning and cancer was pretty much restricted to those that lived in the area and the next generation. After that, the cancer and deformity rates dropped back to just about general population levels.

And even Japanese government sources estimated that 70,000 and 35, 000-45000 were lost at Hiroshima and Nagasaki, not the ridiculous 200,000 numbers you see. The reason you see those inflated numbers is due to anti-nuke activists and Japanese revisionists working together to further their own ends.

[Yomar]

Anything that focuses attention on the damage of the bomb is a good thing as far as I'm concerned, to me remembering what happened in Japan is just about as important as any lesson we have ever learned.

[Riggo-toni]

Originally posted by OURYEAR#56

You're being dramatic Kilmer. All we had to do was take out the Emperor, the little sh*t. One sniper bullet, and the whole Asian pacific affair would have ended. We should have struck what the japanese people derived their power from. We would never had to worry about Cuba, Russia, or Osama. Consequentially thousand of soliders died anyway.

Your ignorance in this area clearly shows how you've been spoonfed a left-wing idealism that has no basis in actual history!!!!

The fact is, the Japanese military tried to mount a coup d'etat against the emperor when he insisted on surrendering after the 2nd bomb was dropped. Thier belief was that America had only a limited number of bombs (which was true, we only had one more), and that they could sacrifice one or two more cities in order to force us into an invasion.

I take this particular issue VERY PERSONALLY, because my uncle was involved in the Manhattan project, and was on the Enola Gay flight. He was, in fact, the man who armed the bomb.

#56 - why don't you try reading some history books before you blurt out such statements. Better yet, get yourself a copy of this video. It's the best historical account of what happened and why:

Hiroshima VHS