Awesome Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 From all the early reports, it seems that Coles is getting the better of Champ in practice. I've read everything from "Coles is giving Champ a hard time" to "Champ cannot cover Coles." This really stuck out to me amongst all the early TC reports that have been coming in. My question to those who have been attending TC for a number of years and have witnessed the early Champ-Coles matchup is, Have we have ever had a wr who came anywhere close to giving Champ troubles in TC? How did Champ matchup against Gardner, Thompson and all the ex-Gators last year? What about all those years ago when he was going against guys like Westbrook, Connell, Fryar, and Thrash. I'm wondering if these early reports may be a sign of things to come (ie Coles being worth the $35 mill) or, is this just training camp and it's not live football so you can't tell? Again, much thanks to those who have made the effort to get to Ashburn this week, your reports have been quite thrilling! Keep up the great work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 I tell you.. Coles has been my favorite player in this league since he was a rookie. (Outside of the 'skins). It seemed to me that whenever the Jets needed a big day in a big game, he came up aces. I had him in an FF keeper league when he was a rook, and grabbed him again in his second year ( I had to trade him last year,,, long story,, broke my heart). Anyway, that kept me with tabs on him, and even tho in my FF league I didn't start him every week I did notice that in big games, he stepped up. I started playing him when the Jets had a big rival, or an important game, and he NEVER let me down. Now, I know that has nothing to do with the real world, but it made me start to pay attention to him. I have been nothing but impressed with him since he came into the league. I almost bought a Jersey, but couldn't bring myself to do it due to the color he wore. He's a playMAKER. He's fearless over the middle. And I don't know that anyone in DC was happier when they picked him up. I was posting on another (now defunct) message board during the early spring, and Brandies may recall that not only did i predict we'd go after him, (I believe I wrote that Vinny Bug-eyes had cyptically said we were set to go after an RFA, and I dared dream that it would be Coles) I damn near died of happiness when he signed. I'm not gay.. but I've had a chubby ever since. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowtrain Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 It's not surprising in the least to hear that he's getting open against Champ. Getting separation by breaking hard on his routes is what he does best. He's sub 6'0" but he's solidly built, so between his combination of strength and quickness, he's able to get off the line without much trouble. His toughness over the middle will also give Ramsey increased leeway from an accuracy perspective - Coles will adjust and make the sure-handed catch without worrying about taking the hit. As I think I mentioned before, Coles has a unique way of squaring up and making himself such an available target for the QB that it sometimes cuts down on his YAC as corners and safeties are able close on him post-catch. Whether this continues to be the case, or whether he can make catches in stride and then leverage his speed will be something to watch for. There is no doubt in my mind that he'll be an effective possession receiver for the Skins. But what will determine whether or not he's worth the steep price tag is whether Ramsey is able to unleash him as a game-breaker. While he was clutch for NY - he wasn't a player who ever broke a game wide open or took on the deep threat role (partly because of Hackett's conservative nature). The question is whether the Spurrier/Ramsey combination can successfully convert him into a gamebreaker who can also find the endzone, rather than just a solid possession WR. To be fair, I'd keep expectations in check with Coles as he transitions into a new system. Short of about 3 WRs in the league, WRs must let the game come to them - remember, a 90 catch WR only has his hands on the ball slightly more than once a quarter. Coles' playoff performance had little to do with his skill as a WR and much more to do with illustrating how even a solid WR can be handcuffed when the offense sputters. But once Coles has settled in and when the offense finds a rhythm, you'll love having him in a Redskin uniform. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYC Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 Bang, while I agree with all your points on why you like the guy and believe me you'll enjoy him in D.C., he did nothing his rookie year or second year for that matter, maybe that's why you chose to dump him in your FFL. He's only had one good year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Om Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 Flow, in all seriosness ... do you think playing in a decidely non-conservative offense, and with a QB possessed of an arm just begging to go deep ... LC might prove the big-play downfield threat worthy of top flight money? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riggo-toni Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 Limited contact in training camp always makes the offense look better I think. If Jacobs or Russell emerge we could have our best 3 wr set since the posse! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen-like Todd Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 While Chad is certainly an accurate passer, I always thought that Coles made him look a bit better than he actually was. The things that Flow described in his post are things that I noticed as well, but I attributed that more to Coles compensating for Chad's lack of arm strength, in addition to a tendency to find the ball rather than simply running his route and getting grumpy if the ball doesnt hit him in the hands. I don't know that Coles will be afforded the same length of time to make moves back to the ball, given Ramsey's arm strength. I also think that the Spurrier/Ramsey combo will obviously send Coles deeper into the secondary with more regularity. On the short outs, Coles always struck me as a hyperactive third grader/the coworker who obviously doesnt need another grande latte but gets it anyways. Wired, bouncy, active. Not necessarily bad things. Anyways, we'll see how things shake out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
panel Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 I saw coles yesterday at camp make a catch over Champ, Coles is good as crap. He needs a QB who can feel him though, a lot of his best times are when he is going all out, and he doen't need to adjust to catch the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen-like Todd Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 Originally posted by panel I saw coles yesterday at camp make a catch over Champ, Coles is good as crap. He needs a QB who can feel him though, a lot of his best times are when he is going all out, and he doen't need to adjust to catch the ball. Well, hopefully he's better than crap. Seriously though, the extremeskins faithful who havent had the opportunity to see him play (or Morton for that matter) are going to be very happy campers when the regular season rolls around. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NYC Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 Pennington missed Coles deep several times last year that would have resulted in long TD's :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowtrain Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 Originally posted by CrankyTodd While Chad is certainly an accurate passer, I always thought that Coles made him look a bit better than he actually was. The things that Flow described in his post are things that I noticed as well, but I attributed that more to Coles compensating for Chad's lack of arm strength, in addition to a tendency to find the ball rather than simply running his route and getting grumpy if the ball doesnt hit him in the hands. Let's not get carried away Cranky. If Coles was the recipient of ALL of Chad's passes, you'd have a great point. But the truth is Coles is responsible for less than 1/3 of those receptions and 5 of Chad's 26 TDs (inc playoffs). There's no doubt that the two worked well as a tandem and I agree that a good WR can make a QB look better (just as the reverse is also true - see Favre to "Pro Bowler" Freeman). But given that Pennington had the highest QB rating, the highest completion %, the 2nd highest TD% and the 2nd lowest INT%, I don't think it's far-fetched to say he was doing something right irrespective of Coles. Ramsey's arm is touted daily on this board. But we don't hear much about the two factors that will weigh more heavily into Coles' success: (1) Ramsey's ability under duress to locate the open WR without making mistakes and (2) his accuracy and touch to allow Coles to first make the catch, and second do so in stride. If those are both there, you'll be in business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 Seeing Coles making the catches in camp in stride is impressive as well as what I've seen on channel 7 and 9 of Jacobs. Gardner better get it in gear because he may be the starting number 2 but the number 3 may get more looks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowtrain Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 You guys are pretty hard on Gardner - I think he looks like he's developing great. Underrated or just tough love? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen-like Todd Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 I think you (unsurprisingly) chose to take my comments in a different spirit than that in which they were offered. Obviously Chad is an accurate passer. He's a good QB period. He's tough, charismatic, and has good touch on the ball. Obviously the ball was spread around. However, the offensive system in place plays to high completion percentages as you well know, and as you just admitted, WRs can make a difference. Besides Coles, Chrebet has quite the soft hands. I know you enjoy being testy and ****y, but really, there's no cause to get your panties in a bunch. There's nothing I said that was inaccurate, and you yourself agreed with me in concept. You simply suggested that not being the only receiver on the field diminishes the extent to which an individual receiver can improve the statistical performance of a quarterback. I never stated the degree to which that was true. And of course, high quality #1 WRs typically draw coverage from the #1 DB and often safety help, opening the rest of the field up. As to your discussion of Ramsey, I disagree. Everyone, including the coaching staff and his teammates, is convinced of his toughness in the pocket, his intelligence, his composure, and his ability to hang in until the last possible moment under ridiculous pressure. Can he make the appropriate reads? He showed that at times last year, and at other times he didnt. He also held out last summer, was at the back of the rotation, received limited snaps, and limited attention from the coaches. While I don't expect him to pick apart teams in veteran Steve Young-like fashion, I think most here are confident that he's continuing to improve in that area. I also think that most redskins fans, coaches, and players aren't expecting him to look like a veteran QB all the time. I think fans of other teams will be far harder on Ramsey than we will be, which is a rare occurrence in D.C. As far as his touch, it's been well documented that his touch and accuracy on deep throws is rather impressive, but that he needs to work on taking some heat off of his short throws, and has been occasionally getting the short-to-medium balls too high, which can and have been resulting in training camp interceptions. Trust me, we pay attention. We know what we've got. A talented second year QB who hasn't played that much. That's it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NVskinsfan Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 Knew we should have drafted him a couple of years ago! Just glad to have him now! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Awesome Posted August 1, 2003 Author Share Posted August 1, 2003 Originally posted by Flowtrain Underrated or just tough love? Just some tough love for a guy who came in as un unquestioned starter as a rookie. Not to say he didn't have a solid rookie year, but he made plenty of boneheaded plays, including lots of drops on easy balls. I like the way he developed last year and showed lots of toughness. But Gardner can seem to be a guy who gets a big head on occassions and his performance suffers b/c of it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Om Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 Just saw this as an avatar for a member of the gangreen.com community: Didn't want to devote a whole new thread to it, but man, I knew I just had to post it somewhere ... Seems we've gotten under some Skins. Oh and btw ... the artiste forgot Randy Thomas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redman Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 The more they bash, the better you know we're doing. Bill Bidwell is an absolutely awful owner who could have quite the number of gif's done on him, but no one wastes their time with that. Interesting, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowtrain Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 Originally posted by CrankyTodd I think you (unsurprisingly) chose to take my comments in a different spirit than that in which they were offered. In response to my original post that praised Coles' skills, you respond by writing that Chad isn't as good as he appears. You then attribute this discrepency to Coles' ability to compensate for a weak-armed QB. I apologize if I missed the intended compliment to Pennington in those statements. As to your discussion of Ramsey, I disagree. That's great, but where exactly are you disagreeing with me? You disagree with the fact that decision-making skills are important to a QB, or you disagree with the fact that accuracy and touch are important to a QB? I'm not sure which you're disagreeing with, because that's all said. I never said that Ramsey will or won't succeed in either skill, because quite frankly, I haven't seen enough to know either way. All I said was that if he succeeds in both he'll be successful - apparently you disagree. So while I was the one accused of getting overly "testy", I think we see who's really the Cranky one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen-like Todd Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 Originally posted by Flowtrain In response to my original post that praised Coles' skills, you respond by writing that Chad isn't as good as he appears. You then attribute this discrepency to Coles' ability to compensate for a weak-armed QB. I apologize if I missed the intended compliment to Pennington in those statements. That's great, but where exactly are you disagreeing with me? You disagree with the fact that decision-making skills are important to a QB, or you disagree with the fact that accuracy and touch are important to a QB? I'm not sure which you're disagreeing with, because that's all said. I never said that Ramsey will or won't succeed in either skill, because quite frankly, I haven't seen enough to know either way. All I said was that if he succeeds in both he'll be successful - apparently you disagree. So while I was the one accused of getting overly "testy", I think we see who's really the Cranky one. 1) This is a thread about Coles. The only reference to Chad was in relation to Coles. If you are curious about my views on Chad Pennington, feel free to look at this thread from last december. 2) It was obvious that I was disagreeing with your suggestion that we didn't hear much about the the traits you mentioned. I think they've garnered significant coverage. Just another example of poor reading comprehension, or intentional misrepresentation. Since I have no evidence as to your motive, I'll make no judgment in that regard. ...edit... as far as being cranky.... some of us are quite a bit more honest and self-aware about our personalities than others... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flowtrain Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 Originally posted by MAP16 Just some tough love for a guy who came in as un unquestioned starter as a rookie. Not to say he didn't have a solid rookie year, but he made plenty of boneheaded plays, including lots of drops on easy balls. I like the way he developed last year and showed lots of toughness. But Gardner can seem to be a guy who gets a big head on occassions and his performance suffers b/c of it. No matter how bone-headed you get a free pass your rookie year as a 1st round WR. Remember how Burress punctuated his terrible rookie season? Spiking a live ball at mid-field. For a 2nd year WR, 71-1006-8 is impressive anyway you slice it. As he enters the traditional breakout year for a WR, all eyes are understandably on Coles instead (fans, and probably coaches too). I think Gardner will shine. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mad Mike Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 "But given that Pennington had the highest QB rating, the highest completion %, the 2nd highest TD% and the 2nd lowest INT%, I don't think it's far-fetched to say he was doing something right irrespective of Coles." Flow. I agree that Pennington is a good QB, any team would be happy to have him. His one drawback seems to be his arm streangth. He's not a noodle arm to be sure but he's no gunslinger. But the one thing I would be concerned about if I were a Jets fan is your O line. You had a great one last year. How much will loosing Thomas weaken it? Because even more than a WR, a great O line can make can make a good QB look like a pro-bowler. It's when the pressure starts coming that you find out what your QB is made of. :2cents: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Om Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 Truth is, I think most Skins fans have no real problem with Rod at all. Other than the still-apparently-going-walkabout ASF, that is, who decided last year that Rod's hands were about as disciplined as Paul Reubens'. Rod looks to me to be right on pace to develop into at worst a legitimate #2 WR ... with a chance -- if we see maturity/work habits growth commensurate with his on-field growth to date -- to turn into a borderline elite player. He's not a "spectacular" kind of player, so I don't think he'll ever get the kind of love that plays on message boards (unless he ends up being a steady contributor here for a decade or so) but I think he's well on his way to becoming a valued and valuable cog in SS's offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ignatius J. Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 The interior jets o-line was all about the center mad mike. Mawae is simply an outstanding lineman. I hope that thomas didn't simply bask in mawae's reflected glory, but the pro-bowler in the interior of the jets line wasn't thomas. Not to knock thomas who was a very fine player, but the jets line should be a okay. -DB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen-like Todd Posted August 1, 2003 Share Posted August 1, 2003 Rod is obviously a talented, tough, big, physical receiver. He can get deep, but no one will confuse him with a true burner. His route running has improved, but he lacks the agilty to make the really sharp cuts that some of the smaller guys do. Let's put it this way. He'll never be confused with Marvin Harrison. He has been discussed quite a bit, and the general consensus is that he will benefit not only from entering his third year, which is quite often one in which WRs hit their strides, but also from going up against #2 CBs for the first time in his career. We expect to get plenty of production from him. You hear more about Coles, Jacobs, and the rest of the WR crew chiefly because we know less about them than we do about Gardner. Many on this board are also resigned to the likelihood that he will depart once his contract is up. Having spent such a large amount of money on Coles, it is unlikely that the team will be able to afford to offer Gardner the type of contract he will be looking for. At some point, someone will be sacrificed, and all signs point to Rod being that guy. This is yet another reason that many people have such an interest in the development of Taylor Jacobs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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