Carlos Rogers = The New Shawn Springs

[21forlyfe]

you can eat crow and change your tune as long as you own up to it... right? i think we all will be excited if BOTH rogers and hall step it up this year....

Yes you can, I agree with that 100%

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Does contract size dictate skill level? Eli Manning got a bigger contract than Philip Rivers in the same offseason but I don't believe Eli is the better QB by any stretch.

a little different, manning is a superbowl MVP, thats what got him that huge contract. rivers is better, but his contract was pretty friggin close to what eli got.

hes been highly paid on 3 different teams now, he was good on the falcons, every one sucks on the raiders (see moss, randy) and he was very good for us last year.

[21forlyfe]

a little different, manning is a superbowl MVP, thats what got him that huge contract. rivers is better, but his contract was pretty friggin close to what eli got.

hes been highly paid on 3 different teams now, he was good on the falcons, every one sucks on the raiders (see moss, randy) and he was very good for us last year.

Cooking with grease

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

I never said Hall was bad, but I don't think he was worth the contract he got here, and he proved he wasn't worth the money Oakland gave him--even Al Davis recognized that. He played pretty well here last year, sure, as a PART of the defense, like you said. He has shown in his time in Atlanta and Oakland that he cannot be counted on as a #1 corner. That's why I don't think he should have gotten the contract he did. That's my main complaint against him.

Also, I still think Rogers is the better player. If you look beyond the interception numbers, I think you will too. He may not get big money, but that's because he doesn't make the picks. Hall makes the picks, but is less impressive at the other things.

i guess i just value picks pretty high, maybe cause its our defenses biggest problem. turnovers are so crucial to a game and can be a huge momentum shift, and thats what i think D hall brings for us. rogers cant do that, which is a shame, because if he could, he'd be a top corner in the league.

im glad we have both of them this year and its gonna hurt to see rogers go, so hopefully barnes can step up and fill in that role to a degree. doubtful at the moment, but he needs more time.

[pvkeeper19]

Can I ask where you get these stats?

I don't know of a place that keeps these stats officially, so I'm going by what I see on film.

[NewCliche21]

carlos played in every game last year. Had a season ending injury in 2007, played and started 15 games in 2006. I don't see how he is anything like shawn springs.

It's easy to start a thread when you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Yes, let's play him with his calf injury for a meaningless game when we've already seen that he can be a #1 corner.

Anyone who disagrees is just plain wrong, honestly. He'll be here next year and he's a damned good corner.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

It's easy to start a thread when you don't know what the hell you're talking about. Yes, let's play him with his calf injury for a meaningless game when we've already seen that he can be a #1 corner.

Anyone who disagrees is just plain wrong, honestly. He'll be here next year and he's a damned good corner.

no way hes here unless he takes a subpar contract. we cant pay two corners 50 million dollar contracts unless we completely negate another position on the team, or we draft like 5 7th rounders that turn into chris hortons.

[holmester]

He can be covered. He just can't be covered by one man and Hall can barely cover any man when left on an island.

I just started skipping over your post's after this one. Your obviously a big time Rogers supporter/Hall hater. Halls a good corner when used properly just as Rogers is.

I think Hall is being let hang out to dry on some plays by Blache. Blache dials up some of the worst blitzes I have ever seen. On 3rd and long these 4-5 men rushes with another 1-2 men delayed blitz in behind them never work. When you have a d-line as talented as ours I dont understand why we just dont send 4-5 rushers and sit in a zone and wait for qb's to lob it up for our secondary.

[NewCliche21]

no way hes here unless he takes a subpar contract. we cant pay two corners 50 million dollar contracts unless we completely negate another position on the team, or we draft like 5 7th rounders that turn into chris hortons.

You've been around long enough to know that a $50 million contract for us is not the same as for the rest of the league. If we want him, then we'll find a way, and we'll definitely want him.

If we don't, then we're losing a fantastic player and proving again that we can't grow our own stars.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

You've been around long enough to know that a $50 million contract for us is not the same as for the rest of the league. If we want him, then we'll find a way, and we'll definitely want him.

If we don't, then we're losing a fantastic player and proving again that we can't grow our own stars.

theres only so much cap bending we could do with rogers, i just dont see it happening. he wants top 5 CB money, as much was said in the offseason about his contract needs/wants.

youre right that we get what we want, to a degree, but im sure danny wants a lot of stuff we dont get.

[NewCliche21]

theres only so much cap bending we could do with rogers, i just dont see it happening. he wants top 5 CB money, as much was said in the offseason about his contract needs/wants.

youre right that we get what we want, to a degree, but im sure danny wants a lot of stuff we dont get.

I don't know if this is out of Snyder's range, though, especially with no cap next year. I'm praying for five picks from Rogers in combination with his usual Velcro coverage in order to secure our amazing secondary's starting lineup next year.

[NewCliche21]

I just started skipping over your post's after this one. Your obviously a big time Rogers supporter/Hall hater. Halls a good corner when used properly just as Rogers is.

I think Hall is being let hang out to dry on some plays by Blache. Blache dials up some of the worst blitzes I have ever seen. On 3rd and long these 4-5 men rushes with another 1-2 men delayed blitz in behind them never work. When you have a d-line as talented as ours I dont understand why we just dont send 4-5 rushers and sit in a zone and wait for qb's to lob it up for our secondary.

It's pretty well-known that Hall is a zone corner, so I don't know where you're getting this from.

As for Blache's blitzes, yeah, absolutely awful on his part. We were #4 despite Blache's worst efforts.

[theboomking]

Everyone in this thread keeps assuming that there will be a CBA next year, which is looking doubtfull at this point. No CBA = no cap = Rogers is in DC next year.

If there is a cap, we only have so much space, and I'd rather try to squeeze in Merriman at 10-12 million a year than Rogers at 8 million. San Diego is going to have to franchise McNeil by the looks of things, and drafted Merriman's replacement last year.

[pvkeeper19]

theres only so much cap bending we could do with rogers, i just dont see it happening. he wants top 5 CB money, as much was said in the offseason about his contract needs/wants.

Link? I haven't heard this.

[holmester]

It's pretty well-known that Hall is a zone corner, so I don't know where you're getting this from.

As for Blache's blitzes, yeah, absolutely awful on his part. We were #4 despite Blache's worst efforts.

Yea, for as much as the man blitzes and we come up with 24 sacks last season. Good point.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

I don't know if this is out of Snyder's range, though, especially with no cap next year. I'm praying for five picks from Rogers in combination with his usual Velcro coverage in order to secure our amazing secondary's starting lineup next year.

theres gonna be a cap. no way do we go into next season uncapped. theyll figure something out.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Link? I haven't heard this.

i think they were talking extension with him in the early offseason and he balked at the offers basically saying he wanted top 5 money. let me see if i can find the article.

i cant find anything, maybe it was all just speculation. i remember he got demoted at the end of last year to nickel CB and he was pretty POed about it, and there were tons of trade talks because nobody thought we'd extend him. i saw a JLC blurb about us not wanting to pay him the big contract hes gonna want, but thats about it.

i still dont think we have enough money to sign him to a contract acceptable to him.

[Botched]

So, nobody who's insisting Rogers is a far better corner can provide any evidence to back them up?

Anyone? Evidence? Stats? Maybe quotes from coaches or players? Anything?

Bueller?

Bueller?

[holmester]

So, nobody who's insisting Rogers is a far better corner can provide any evidence to back them up?

Anyone? Evidence? Stats? Maybe quotes from coaches or players? Anything?

Bueller?

Bueller?

There was a thread that provided stats a while back but it didn't really help. Posters just manipulated the stats to prove their own case on who was better. They're 2 completely different corners. It's hard to say whos better and that's why people that claim one is so much better then the other are just showing how little they are qualified to make such statements.

[Botched]

They're 2 completely different corners. It's hard to say whos better and that's why people that claim one is so much better then the other are just showing how little they are qualified to make such statements.

Yeah I don't know how anyone here could know how one guy is so much better than the other.

I mean when I look at INTs, I see that Hall had 5 last year alone and Rogers has 6 in his whole career. Obviously there's a whole lot more to the story, but that is really the only black and white comparison I can make. I also see that Hall has made Pro Bowls, so obviously there are more people out there, including coaches, who think Hall has been a better CB. Not concrete evidence by any stretch, but it hurts the case for Rogers being so much better than Hall.

So when I see people here claiming that Rogers is so much better that it's not even debatable, I have to wonder what they're basing it on. I don't think everyone has had a subscription to NFL Sunday ticket and religiously watched every Falcons and Raiders game for the last 5 years.

Come on, somebody must have some stats. Don't hold out on me.

[pvkeeper19]

So, nobody who's insisting Rogers is a far better corner can provide any evidence to back them up?

Anyone? Evidence? Stats? Maybe quotes from coaches or players? Anything?

Bueller?

Bueller?

I have frequently found defensive statistics to be inadequate, and plan to keep some stats of my own this season for the purpose of better analyzing the Redskins. Until I have those numbers, I won't be able to prove much.

For now, I can offer this:

1. Hall has a record of being flagged for high-profile personal fouls, and has already been called for two during his limited action in the preseason (ESPN)

2. Hall was cut from the Raiders for his poor performance in man coverage (USA Today)

3. Hall has a history of giving up high-profile long plays due to pass interference calls (previous ESPN story, Bleacher Report)

I don't think Carlos Rogers is known for any of these things--just dropping a few picks. To me, fewer negatives about Rogers make him the better player.

[mithong1]

hall is god awful in man converage

[Botched]

I have frequently found defensive statistics to be inadequate, and plan to keep some stats of my own this season for the purpose of better analyzing the Redskins. Until I have those numbers, I won't be able to prove much.

For now, I can offer this:

1. Hall has a record of being flagged for high-profile personal fouls, and has already been called for two during his limited action in the preseason (ESPN)

2. Hall was cut from the Raiders for his poor performance in man coverage (USA Today)

3. Hall has a history of giving up high-profile long plays due to pass interference calls (previous ESPN story, Bleacher Report)

I don't think Carlos Rogers is known for any of these things--just dropping a few picks. To me, fewer negatives about Rogers make him the better player.

-It does seem like Hall has more of an attitude, but personal fouls don't mean much about his abilities as a corner. As far as PI, seems that Carlos has been flagged numerous times as well.

-The USA today article said he had a hard time adjusting to man to man, but look what his teammates said in the same article about Hall's release:

"I've never been in a situation where you cut one of the best players," said safety Gibril Wilson, another of the team's offseason acquisitions. "That's strange to me. It's almost like we're throwing in the towel."

"I'm obviously disappointed," Asomugha said. "I don't agree with what happened. I don't agree with what's going on. But I am just a player so I can't speak on it. I don't make the decisions. All I can do is play but I don't agree with what happened at all."

-The last one was from the bleacher report, so I can't put a whole lot of stock in it. But here's a line from that article too which stood out:

Last week against Pittsburgh, Rogers dropped an easy interception and was called for a 50+ yard pass interference penalty which could have played a role in deciding to acquire the talented but trouble-causing Hall.

To me, fewer negatives about Rogers make him the better player.

Since we don't have many stats for them, I'd say that's a totally fair assessment to make. I just don't think it's fair when some people say Rogers is so much better than Hall that it's stupid to suggest otherwise. I have no problem with people saying they believe Rogers (or Hall) is better, as long as they don't pretend it's a non-debateable fact.

[NewCliche21]

Yeah I don't know how anyone here could know how one guy is so much better than the other.

I mean when I look at INTs, I see that Hall had 5 last year alone and Rogers has 6 in his whole career. Obviously there's a whole lot more to the story, but that is really the only black and white comparison I can make. I also see that Hall has made Pro Bowls, so obviously there are more people out there, including coaches, who think Hall has been a better CB. Not concrete evidence by any stretch, but it hurts the case for Rogers being so much better than Hall.

So when I see people here claiming that Rogers is so much better that it's not even debatable, I have to wonder what they're basing it on. I don't think everyone has had a subscription to NFL Sunday ticket and religiously watched every Falcons and Raiders game for the last 5 years.

Come on, somebody must have some stats. Don't hold out on me.

Looks like you missed the first part of the post that you semi-quoted. There was a post about his stats and it was still manipulated as though it were election propaganda. But, don't worry, if you can ignore half of a post that you quote, then we all know that you'll ignore the stats, too, just like in other threads.

There was a thread that provided stats a while back but it didn't really help. Posters just manipulated the stats to prove their own case on who was better. They're 2 completely different corners. It's hard to say whos better and that's why people that claim one is so much better then the other are just showing how little they are qualified to make such statements.

[theboomking]

Well, I personally think Rogers is better, but Blache obviously doesn't, since he played Springs and Hall ahead of Rogers. It's not really his coverage or his lack of hands that makes me nervous. He is getting up there in age and has a history of a major knee injury, and plays a position where dropoffs in play can be precipitous. If there is no cap, I'm happy to sign him to a high dollar contract, because if his health or play suffer, you aren't constrained by Rogers' contract when you try to replace him. With a cap, his age and knee make me a bit nervous about signing him to a high dollar, long term deal.

For those who doubt the bit about the kneemaking any difference at this point, I don't think it is any coincidence that both Rocky and Carlos faded down the stretch last year and had their playing time reduced. I'm crossing my fingers for this season.