Zorn on the Horns of a Dilemma This Season

[RenegadeTK]

Einstein never said it. that quote is only about 20 years old. I have forgotten the name of the writer credited with it. I never heard of him.

a lot of people attribute it to him.....

http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/a/alberteins133991.html

I think Zorn did a far better job than the majority of fans give him credit for.

His style of offense, emphasizing field position, few turnovers and playing ball control helps the defense look good, but it's always going to underrated because it doesn't score lots of points and isn't as dynamic as the big play style offense.

i agree he did a better job than most think, but i think he is FAR from being free from blame

[Ghost of]

RTK

It's not his, it's a false attribution. The research has been done and the closest we can find is Rita Mae Brown. I'm almost positive she got it from somewhere else but it's only recently that I saw that attributed to Einstein (basically, I had encountered it many years ago and never heard that attribution. The popularity of lending Einstein's name to buttress it as an aphorism may have caught on in the last 10-15 years)

One thing that you'll find is that many things are SIMILAR to what someone said and then people will piggyback on those ideas. Hell, I was reading Barzun's From Dawn to Decadence and felt inspired to try my hand at a quote. Another day or so later, when I had time to tackle the book again, I found something quite similar in sentiment to my own crafted thought. It happens even more frequently in the public arena.

[seanyt]

To those posters complaining about Zorn's lack of creativity -- let's be fair. How creative can you get when your offense can't execute vanilla properly?

:doh:

I couldn't have called that out any better...

How many times did our recievers drop the most simplest passes with NO footsteps to be heard? Too many...

[Oldfan]

I don't know how much it had to do with their inability to execute properly. Rather, I think it was more a function of having Heyersen at RT and a frequently gimpy Samuels at LT, as well as a less than healthy Thomas to boot.

I'm not looking for excuses for Jim Zorn, but it's difficult as a spectator to judge how good a job he did because of a number of factors made his first year more difficult; but certainly execution was a big factor, just as we might have expected in year one of a difficult to learn offense.

[Oldfan]

I have read, I believe it was Colt that stated that when working from the shotgun, the QB is at a disadvantage because he has to take his eyes off of the defense to take the snap.

That IS a disadvantage of the shotgun. But, the QB has a better look at the rush from the gun and a full second longer to adjust to it.

There are ample stats on the completion percentages of QBs in the league going back for five or six years. An overhwhelming majority of QBs have better stats in the shotgun than when they operate from under center. Some, do much better.

From footballoutsiders.com ---

Shotgun formations are generally more efficient than formations with the quarterback under center.

In 2007, offenses gained 5.9 yards per play from shotgun, but just 5.1 yards per play with the quarterback under center. In 2006, the difference was even greater, with 6.4 yards per play from shotgun and just under 5.0 yards per play with the quarterback under center. This wide split exists even if you analyze the data to try to weed out biases like teams using shotgun more often on third-and-long, or against prevent defenses in the fourth quarter. Shotgun offense is more efficient if you only look at the first half, on every down, and even if you only look at running back carries rather than passes and scrambles.

Clearly, NFL teams have figured the importance of the shotgun out for themselves. In 2007, for the first time, every single team ran at least eight percent of their plays from shotgun, and the average team used shotgun 27 percent of the time, a huge jump over the 19 percent average of 2006. The 2007 Patriots were the first team in our records to use shotgun on more than half their offensive plays. It is likely that if teams continue to increase their usage of the shotgun, defenses will adapt and the benefit of the formation will become less pronounced.

* Pro Football Prospectus 2007, Tampa Bay chapter

Does Jason prefer to work from under center, or does he prefer working from the shotgun? Which ever he prefers, should be the majority he works from.

When asked by Zorn early last season, Jason said he was more comfortable in the shotgun.

Great post by the way.

Thank you.

[Vicious]

How can you be in rhythm when you can't count on the time for your drop backs? We're going to suffer because we have one of the poorest Olines in the league.

[mbws]

Einstein never said it. that quote is only about 20 years old. I have forgotten the name of the writer credited with it. I never heard of him.

He meant Norman Einstein.

[Oldfan]

How can you be in rhythm when you can't count on the time for your drop backs? We're going to suffer because we have one of the poorest Olines in the league.

The O line can take its share of the blame, but in another thread, Art told us that he heard Jim Zorn on the NFL network talking about Jason's problem in not being decisive and cutting loose when you'd expect him to.

[Ghost of]

How can you be in rhythm when you can't count on the time for your drop backs? We're going to suffer because we have one of the poorest Olines in the league.

No we don't, Deceiver.

It's an excuse for your boy, rather than the truth.

And you apparently conflate one game (the Steelers) with some late-season play-by-play assault upon Campbell's person when it's not true.

Not like we exactly lit up the bad defenses we played when the O-line WAS doing it's thing.

[Riggo-toni]

To those posters complaining about Zorn's lack of creativity -- let's be fair. How creative can you get when your offense can't execute vanilla properly?

Thank you!!! Saunders and Zorn both came from very effective offensive systems. They didn't suddenly become stupid. Though their systems were quite different, they both had one common prerequisite for success - a pocket passer making quick decisions - something our team sorely lacks.

[Uno Mas]

The Giants pwn us every year running out of the shot gun. The Patriots run a lot out of shot gun too. Its a great way to set other things up out of the formation.

Whats the difference between us, versus the Giants and Patriots? They have a very legit vertical attack, so teams must respect them in shotgun formation. When people start respecting JC, the shotgun will be a successful run formation for us too.

[LoudMouth12thMan]

Let's adapt an age old reliable offense for a qb that doesn't possess the skills to play in that system. You mean they're stuck with Campbell? We knew that already ha ha They can't put the guy in shotgun all the time. That stupid pump fake, draw play, doesn't work against good teams, and you can't have an effective running game with your qb in the shotgun the majority of the time....unless you're Tom Brady of course.

Jason needs to change, not the WCO system. That's nuts. Campbell isn't good enough to demand that a coach change an offense for him. He has a big arm that isn't deep accurate, so until he throws a better deep ball with more arc a la' Flacco, there's no reason to start adapting Zorn's version of the WCO to suit JC's supposed "strengths."

Zorn needs Jason to make another step/progression in this offense, or they need to put someone under center that can get it done in this system. It's a good system. The onus is on Jason, not Zorn despite what the media or people on this message board say. I hate how people tie Zorn to JC's hip. Campbell was drafted before Zorn got here. Zorn can only work with what he's been given which is why I think the Redskins shopped around for another option at qb. IMO, they don't believe JC can operate in the WCO regardless what anyone says. It's obvious, but we'll see how Campbell responds to all the doubt. Again, I hope he shoves it in their face, but it'll be interesting to see if he stays here next year if he does perform well this season. :2cents:

[LizKauai]

There are Redskins QBs who CAN do the WCO. Decisions need to be made.

Modify the peg or modify the hole?

[PROSCOUT]

Like Jim Zorn, the successful WCO quarterbacks, Montana, Young and Hasslebeck are disciples of the Walsh doctrine, strong in their belief in the advantages of "throwing on rhythm" -- timing the pass routes with the QB's dropback and setup. And, like Walsh, one of the gripes WCO proponents have had against the shotgun is that the rhythm advantage is lost.

The QB dropping back from under center is better able to read the defensive backfield alignment, but the QB in the shotgun is better able to read the rush, plus he has an extra second to react to it.

Jason Campbell is having problems making the quick decisions needed to run this offense effectively. I think Jim Zorn will have to adapt to Jason's game by using more shotgun (at six-five with long arms, he could set up six yards back and it would be very difficult for a center, even intentionally, to snap the ball over his head). With a one-step drop, Jason would be setting up seven yards behind the LOS and better able to see the rush.

Quick decision making is a key factor for any QB passing against today's pressure defenses, but all QBs, regardless of how quick they are, will fare better with an extra second to react.

Let's see how well Jim adapts.

The WCO is all about rhythm, QB dropping back 5 steps in 2 seconds, firing the ball, and 3 seconds after the snap the receiver should have a catch. Yes, that is all true. But isn't that what QB's have been doing since the game was invented.

Sonny Jurgenson had a playbook. He didn't just tell Bobby Mitchell, Charlie Taylor, and Jerry Smith to "all go deep and I'll hit one of ya". There was indeed a playbook where Jerry Smith would go down 5 yards and cut outside and make the catch sliding out of bounds for a nice 5 yard gain.

And because Jurgy took a 5 step drop and threw, was that play any different than the WCO? The answer is no. Its just that Bill Walsh put plays like that into a book and came up with a fancy name for them.

Now what he did do was EMPHASIZE the rhythm part of it. Less reads and more throwing on time. I think that Jason can be a good WCO quarterback if Zorn can just give him the go ahead to throw to his first receiver. Stop worrying about going through progressions and trying to make a decision about who is more open, just drop back 3 steps or 5 steps or 7 steps, whatever the playcall...and throw the football. If the receiver catches it then fine. If not we try again. You really can't sack a QB or its tough, if QB follows that approach. Sacks occur when the QB is standing in the pocket searching for an open receiver. By using strict...STRICT timing patterns and philosophy, the Redskins can become much more adept at passing and less reliant on dropping back and trying to find the most open guy.

Zorn needs to be more STRICT on Campbell about the timing part.

[PROSCOUT]

I put some of the blame on Sherman Smith as well.

He comes up with the game plan, and Zorn calls the plays. Neither him or Zorn had ever called an NFL play before their arrival to the Skins.

I think you are forgetting that Jim Zorn was an NFL quarterback fo rmany many years and he audibled and called plays all the time. He is not a flunkie waterboy who just happened to get an assistant to the QB coach job and suddenly he is a head coach/play caller.

In some ways it should be easier for Zorn to call plays standing on the sidelines than it was while he was looking over a defense of 11 very mean men trying to hurt him while trying to bark out signals to 10 other guys who were trying to hear him over 50,000 screaming fans.

I think you are misinformed.

[Oldfan]

Let's adapt an age old reliable offense for a qb that doesn't possess the skills to play in that system.

1) Offenses change continually because defenses catch up to them. No team is running Walsh's scheme as he did;

2) Adapting schemes to fit the talent is routine; Walsh originally designed his scheme for Virgil Carter. Andy Reid's scheme was re-worked to fit McNabb.

They can't put the guy in shotgun all the time.

50% is about right, I think.

That stupid pump fake, draw play, doesn't work against good teams, and you can't have an effective running game with your qb in the shotgun the majority of the time....unless you're Tom Brady of course.

Matt Bowen calls the Patriots offense a "WCO from the shotgun" because it uses the short passing game to move the chains rather than rely on the run.

Tom Brady's stats show that he is much more effective from the gun than from under center.

Jason needs to change, not the WCO system. That's nuts.

Until Zorn decides he has someone better to play the position, it's his job to give his QB every chance for success.

Zorn can only work with what he's been given which is why I think the Redskins shopped around for another option at qb.

I think they want to upgrade at the QB position, but grade A QBs are rare. So, until we get one, Zorn has to get whatever Campbell has to give.

[Oldfan]

There are Redskins QBs who CAN do the WCO. Decisions need to be made.

Modify the peg or modify the hole?

Jason has worked hard, done everything asked of him, to modify his mechanics to fit the scheme. To me, he looks like a much better QB than the one Gibbs drafted. I have him with grade C potential and I want him playing the position until Jim Zorn decides he has someone better ready to go.

[Late Night Roach]

I think you are misinformed.

No. I'll be more specific, just for you...Never called a play as a coach.

[Oldfan]

The WCO is all about rhythm, QB dropping back 5 steps in 2 seconds, firing the ball, and 3 seconds after the snap the receiver should have a catch. Yes, that is all true. But isn't that what QB's have been doing since the game was invented.

Cars today operate on the same basic ideas that they did in Sonny's day, but they are far more complex under the hood. It's the same with football.

I think that Jason can be a good WCO quarterback if Zorn can just give him the go ahead to throw to his first receiver.

That would work well with big receivers who don't need to get separation -- the kind who can get up and fight for the ball and at least break up interceptions. The rookie receivers and Cooley have that size.

[SoCalSkins]

Jason has worked hard, done everything asked of him, to modify his mechanics to fit the scheme. To me, he looks like a much better QB than the one Gibbs drafted. I have him with grade C potential and I want him playing the position until Jim Zorn decides he has someone better ready to go.

2 weeks ago you claimed he would be a Pro Bowler in 2009.

What makes you believe that Zorn would be permitted to choose the starting QB of the Redskins?

[Oldfan]

2 weeks ago you claimed he would be a Pro Bowler in 2009.

I said that Jason will likely be selected for the Pro Bowl because I think we'll win 11-13 games. I didn't argue that Jason would deserve the honor. QBs on winning teams are almost always overrated.

What makes you believe that Zorn would be permitted to choose the starting QB of the Redskins?

I don't think Dan is an idiot.