Atlanta Skins Fan Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 When you boil away all the flag-waving rhetoric, the never-ending Middle East crisis and the rise of terrorism is fairly easy to understand: We want their oil, and we want control over their oil to keep prices low and fatten U.S. corporate profits; these desires tend to result in the creation and maintenance of corrupt Arab regimes who support our desires; the corrupt regimes in turn alienate their own people, creating dangerous revolutionary forces and resulting state repression. Jewish people would like to maintain and expand the state of Israel on lands claimed for the last 1,300 years by Muslims. This conflict flares most brightly in the Middle East, but has caused many Muslims and Jews (and evangelical Christians) worldwide to take on radical views in support of their sides in the core confict. Since the U.S. backs Israel, it has been dragged into this conflict. All parties in these disputes can point to their favorite grievances and looming threats, which are often genuine. Victims of terrorism are just that: victims. A dangerous dictator wielding WMDs is genuinely dangerous. But all these crimes and threats are in the end just *effects* or *consequences* of the two root causes of conflict in the region. We can argue about these points forever, but that's my view. I'm struck frequently that some people seem not to be able to understand why "they" (radical Muslims) hate us. So there's a short answer. For a daily briefing on "why they hate us," it's worth checking out some Muslim web sites. Obviously at best they present only one side of the story: I am *not* asserting that they present a balanced view. But it's a good place to get daily answers about why they hate us, and what fresh fuel they have to fire their hate for us. Here's one such Muslim site: khilafah.com. I don't profess to have easy answers to the problems. But these people have good reasons to hate us. You can't understand the Middle East and anti-American rhetoric from Muslims without coming to that conclusion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
luckydevil Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 How about this editorial. I tend to agree with this type of thinking. It is alot deeper than just oil and Israel. http://www.time.com/time/covers/1101020909/asalem.html An Arab intellectual apologizes, and explains By ALI SALEM Posted Sunday, September 1, 2002; 3:38 p.m. EST s an Egyptian, I find myself compelled to apologize to the American people for what happened to them on Sept. 11. I apologize because one of those involved in that horrible disaster was Egyptian. As a man of letters, I declare myself innocent of having any part in the creation of the culture that spawned these individuals. A long time before New York City's Twin Towers were destroyed, many towers in my country were brought down by this same brand of perpetrators. They killed President Anwar Sadat, who initiated peace with Israel and liberalism in Egypt; they killed the Egyptian writer Farag Fouda, a defender of freedom and secularism; they stabbed our Nobel laureate, Naguib Mahfouz, when he was 82 years old, after discovering that 30 years earlier he had written a novel they considered the work of an infidel. They said they had not read the novel. Who told them it was sacrilegious? Someone living in a cave in the mountains of Afghanistan, or sitting in a London café or a mosque in New Jersey, told them so. In Egypt alone, these fundamentalists have killed more than 1,000 policemen and ordinary citizens, Christian and Muslim alike. In one of the most beautiful places on earth, the temple of Queen Hatshepsut in Luxor, they slaughtered nearly 60 tourists in 1997. In Algeria their sickles endlessly harvest the souls of the poor and helpless. They have committed all these crimes with the purpose of establishing the kingdom of God on earth and have succeeded only in turning our lives into hell. In my country, art, education and the economy have all been leveled to a ground zero. I'm convinced, though, that the problem we face is not religious but political. And so it will never be solved with a religious summit. If you hold a meeting of Muslim sheiks, Christian pastors and Jewish rabbis, they inevitably come out with blissful smiles and report that they have found their values to be mostly identical, and they are right. Extremism may claim God as its redeemer, but it's really the selfish product of lunacy. In America, the most free and modern nation of our time, you see it too. You saw it with Jim Jones, who told his flock in Guyana to follow him into death by drinking poisoned Kool-Aid, and you saw it when David Koresh created his own small hell in Waco, Texas. In my part of the world, the Arab Middle East, a great tragedy results from our governments' well-intentioned attempts to cure society of extremism through education. These leaders, however, don't teach what they should to produce the values they want. They seek moderation and enforce piety. They seek citizens who value life, yet their school curriculums exalt the value of science and ignore philosophy and history and the liberal, humanistic values they embody. That is why those who excel in such a system are no less immune to the call of extremism. Our governments assume that people need to understand Islam in its purest form to stay religiously moderate. The result is the mass production of true believers, not good citizens. Because people initially welcome the imposed piety but then gradually realize it doesn't equip them to meet the challenges of getting through life, life becomes a morbid burden. To shake off this burden, some of them, usually young men, can't wait for natural death and decide instead to take a short cut to heaven. Before ascending, they must have a cause that's canonized by their community—the greatest cause on earth, capable of justifying their sacrifice in the eyes of their kin. It's not enough to die fighting for their country; they must be fighting for God. Once they have secured that cause, they search for a way to ennoble it in the eyes of ordinary people who do not share their holy delusion but whose admiration they crave. They know that most people respect logic and reason. So they go looking for a nationalistic cause: this is what Osama bin Laden did when he claimed the Palestinian cause as a justification for the destruction of Sept. 11. But beneath their claims is a sadder truth: these extremists are pathologically jealous. They feel like dwarfs, which is why they search for towers and all those who tower mightily. We must admit that we failed to teach these people that life is worth living. These extremists exist now, and will exist forever, so the question before us must be, How can we defend both our lives and theirs? We in the Arab world love freedom and want the chance at a decent life. We are not different from you, as it sometimes seems. We may be just temporarily backward. Working together, our governments must decide how, with what culture and by what actions, they will combat the influence of those who hate life. —Ali Salem is a playwright and the author of several books, including "Journey into Israel." He lives in Cairo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 Here's another good read posted by redman awhile back. http://www.extremeskins.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=20893&highlight=prager Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheKurp Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 And then there is this... Foreign distrust of U.S. increases Many blame Bush in 20-nation survey By Susan Page USA TODAY As President Bush plunges into Middle East diplomacy, a survey of 20 nations and the Palestinian Authority shows widespread distrust of his leadership, skepticism in the region about his plan for peace and less regard for the United States around the world. The survey, sponsored by the non-partisan Pew Research Center, found that feelings in Muslim countries were particularly inflamed in the wake of the war with Iraq. In seven of eight Muslim countries, majorities said they feared a U.S. military invasion. In Indonesia, Jordan and the Palestinian Authority, majorities said they had confidence in Osama bin Laden to ''do the right thing in world affairs.'' Nearly half of those in Morocco and Pakistan agreed. The poll portrays the United States as increasingly isolated, compared with the findings in a 44-nation Pew survey last year. The project is one of the few attempts to systematically measure global attitudes. The repercussions could affect not only U.S. foreign policy but also the ease with which Americans travel and U.S. businesses compete around the globe. Madeleine Albright, who chairs the project and was President Clinton's secretary of State, called ''the anti-American aspects of this very troubling.'' White House spokesman Scott McClellan cited ''some positive numbers'' in the poll, including support throughout the Muslim world for Western-style democracy and free markets. Among the findings: * The rift with Europe has widened. Majorities in five of seven NATO countries want less dependence on the United States. * Support for the war on terrorism has declined, and the standing of the United Nations has plummeted. * Bush is blamed by many. In 17 of 20 nations, those who hold negative views about the United States are more likely to say the problem is Bush rather than the country generally. The findings underscore the difficulties ahead for Bush in the Middle East. He met with Arab leaders Tuesday and sits down with Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon and Palestinian Authority Prime Minister Mahmoud Abbas today to urge progress on the U.S.-backed ''road map.'' It envisions creation of a Palestinian state to exist side by side with Israel by 2005. But 80% of those in the Palestinian Authority said co-existence isn't possible. But in Israel, 68% of Jews and 62% of Arabs said it is possible. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 But 80% of those in the Palestinian Authority said co-existence isn't possible. But in Israel, 68% of Jews and 62% of Arabs said it is possible. Ouch. I think that's a big part of the problem right there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redman Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 ASF- your constant introspection as to why "they hate us" is always going to fail to find the true cause, but it's very telling about your fundamantal assumption: that America is evil. Why is it that the word "hate" is such an epithet to liberals when discussing domestic issues, but begs for (inevitably anti-American) justification when the word is applied to Arabs or Muslims? Do you look at them as lower beings and expect no more from them? I don't accept that soft bigotry as I hold all Arabs and Muslims morally accountable for their acts of violence and murder the same way that I do Christians and Jews. Even ignoring that issue, you need to ask yourself one question: were we to reverse every policy that you criticize as a cause of Islamic radicalism (support for Israel and dominion over Arab oil) do you really think that the Osama bin Ladens of the world would all of a sudden stop hating us and trying to kill us? The truth is that at the root of radical Islam and the militant terror movement that it inspires is the goal of Islam dominating the world. It's explicitly written in their doctrine. Our thirst for oil has about as much to do with Islamic terror as our oppression of the proletariat did with Soviet expansion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chiefhogskin48 Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 I can't say that I diagree with a single word in ASF's post. It seems like a no-brainer. If, hypothetically, we had never supported Israel, the Islamic world wouldn't hate us any more than they hate any other infidel nation. That is also part of the problem, ASF. Islamic intolerance of "infidels". This stems from one of their core beliefs, making it impossible, or at least contradictory, for Muslims to embrace Christian nations like ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest SkinsHokie Fan Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 If anyone has been to that part of the world they would realize its a pure power struggle by these sick twisted radicals. This is a great way for them to gain power, by saying they oppose the power of America. They dont realize that if there were more freedoms in the Muslim world, our standing would rise, people would be more happy and the Muslim world would realize that the real problem is the inept leaders they have. Mass revolution would occur. They hate us so much but Milosevic killed thousands of Muslims and the Muslim world did nothing to stop it, not even the radicals. They claim to despise infidels however there has been zero support of the Kashmir movement by arab and other Muslim governments. Chechnya has been an afterthought. Our (for me being Muslim world) is in major trouble, not because of America but because of a sick thirst for power. Claiming America wants oil or its Isreal's fault is a great way to blame others to accumulate power. Until Muslims realize that it is us to blame for our failures we will always be backwards in the Arab world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phanatic Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 The problems between Isreal and Palestine are over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Atlanta Skins Fan Posted June 4, 2003 Author Share Posted June 4, 2003 Originally posted by phanatic [The problems between Isreal and Palestine are over. Boy, that's a bizarre set of photos. Bush's Middle East tour has been interesting to watch. I'm too jaded from reading decades of Middle East history to expect an enduring solution to emerge, but I'm not completely ruling it out. Bush's "bull in a china shop" approach is novel: his impatience and lack of interest in subtleties could work for him. I read some fairly humorous quotes of Bush's exchanges with Sharon, which amounted to, "Look, knucklehead, I'm on your side. Get out of the settlements, make a deal, and be done with it. I've got your back, so relax." Whether that happens, and whether a deal can stick, are different questions. But Bush deserves some credit for blowing out of the G8 conference and focusing on the real problem -- for his 15 minutes of attention span. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Evil Genius Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 God only knows what they are saying on that site...still its a funny pic... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Matt Kyriacou Posted June 4, 2003 Share Posted June 4, 2003 Does Left = Gay? Hmmmmmmmm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 self-loathing must be a terrible thing. hey, if you get really lucky ASF, maybe another "Final Solution" will come along and eliminate some of your profoundly deep new millenium angst...... you are strange piece of work indeed...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Matt Kyriacou Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 Originally posted by fansince62 self-loathing must be a terrible thing. Luckily for ASF self-gratification is not and he is able to pleasure himself to delusions of corruptness on the part of the right. BTW ASF - WTF is wrong with flag waving rhetoric? Face it "punk-*****" you live in the United States. If you don't like it, then you can always punch your passport for Cuba. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fansince62 Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 And no..."Its why ASF hates US"...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Larry Brown #43 Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 Originally posted by Atlanta Skins Fan When you boil away all the flag-waving rhetoric, the never-ending Middle East crisis and the rise of terrorism is fairly easy to understand: We want their oil, and we want control over their oil to keep prices low and fatten U.S. corporate profits; these desires tend to result in the creation and maintenance of corrupt Arab regimes who support our desires; the corrupt regimes in turn alienate their own people, creating dangerous revolutionary forces and resulting state repression. Jewish people would like to maintain and expand the state of Israel on lands claimed for the last 1,300 years by Muslims. This conflict flares most brightly in the Middle East, but has caused many Muslims and Jews (and evangelical Christians) worldwide to take on radical views in support of their sides in the core confict. Since the U.S. backs Israel, it has been dragged into this conflict. Actually, ASF, the answer to why they hate us is even simpler than you state. The reason they hate us is because we are not an Islamic state. If you want to boil this thing down to its true core, that's what this is about. And the fact that we are a powerful nation at the same time, well that combination makes us evil. Look at bin Laden, for example. He has stated that the only way muslims in this world can attain their rightful place is through an apocalyptic war with the West. Notice he didn't say "a war with the U.S.," but an apocalyptic war with the West. That includes Europe, Canada and many other free lands. These terrorists are so wrapped up in their Islamic fundamentalist ideology that they don't believe any non-Islamic state is a viable option for governance. If you look back at history, you'll recall a fellow in Germany with a short mustache who had a similar "superiority" complex. Fortunately we rid the world of that maniac. As for the Palestinians and the Jews...the Palestinians don't just want their own land. They want the extinction of the Jews. (I'm not Jewish, but it's clear to me that this is the case.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Golgo-13 Posted June 5, 2003 Share Posted June 5, 2003 What if I like that they hate us? Does that make me evil? :evil: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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