addicted Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 The '02 Chargers appear to be the closest comparison....not bad company, I'd say. The Chargers in 2003 were 4-12 :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted January 12, 2009 Author Share Posted January 12, 2009 The Chargers in 2003 were 4-12 :doh: True, but look at what they became....they stuck with Marty (for a while at least) and they stuck with Cam. Now Cam is regarded as an offensive genius (a term used way too frequently), or at least a guy that in other threads people are comparing his success to our success. So using this year as 'evidence' that Zorn has too much on his plate, or that Zorn isn't ready to be a HC or OC or whatever else, seems to be contradictory to history. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted January 12, 2009 Author Share Posted January 12, 2009 The Chargers in 2003 were 4-12 Or if you want a team that we compare to that did better in their next year, look at the 1991 Cowboys (first year under Norv Turner). Thats a team that went on to win the SB the following year. Or if you want a team that our offense was better than, look at the 1999 Eagles, they were a playoff team the following year. I'd say I agree with Metalhead that we're in good company. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jumbo Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 No, some bum named Sherman Smith is the so called offensive coordinator. Very offensive. Well, Smith had a long tenure with the Titans as a position coach (RB) and they often did well in that category. He was then promoted to Assistant HC for the two years prior to Zorn offering him a job (which Smith stated was a very difficult choice). I think Fisher has a good head on him, and he felt Smith was a valuable assett in helping coach/design the running game as well as performing his other assistant role duties. Smith's main area of expertise is reflected in helping get Tenn to a #5 NFL standing in rushing the 2 years prior to joining the 'skins, and Fisher's making him a soild offer to remain, and publicly voicing that hope. Zorn was cast, and cast himself and the existing staff (for this first year at least), as handling the passing game responsibilities and play calling. So other thawn supplying typical message board passing of the gas, it would cool if you'd support your case that Smith is a "bum" and is "very offensive" with some argument or extended thought--especially since there is a case to be made for at least some variation of your view. For instance, you might lay the Titans 8-8 and then 10-6 record those two years somewhat at his feet (or debate it anyway). Or ask if a new HC who hadn't been an OC before, should have picked a more diversely qualified assistant (assuming a good candidate was available--and that would be more a Zron critique)) than a run-game guy since we already had much of that part of the offense in place (argument could be made either way). And not that any of that would necessarily support the "Smith = bum" claim. But see? It's not that hard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Thinking Skins, I have to ask this from you about this post. Seems a lot of posters and admins liked your fact gathering and this post. I don't know if I'm just being a jerk or simply down from yet another crappy season from this team but as I see last year when it comes to the offense I don't see much to be happy with or even hopeful about and don't understand what your post is really saying here. We beat 7 teams last year. Of those 7 teams 1 of them were top 10 at the end of the year in total Defense. Stats and numbers don't tell a story, but people do. Here is my take on things. First I'm getting my rankings from: http://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/2008/opp.htm I know some people like to use yards per game as the stat but personally I think points allowed is much more telling over the course of a year when it comes to team Defense. The teams we beat with top 10 defenses: Eagles (2ce) When we played the Eagles this year we actually played our best all year but the offense was not the reason we beat them either game. Our defense outplayed thier Defense both games. As for the 8 losses we had came against: (Rank - Team) 1 - Pittsburgh Steelers 3 - Baltimore Ravens 5 - New York Giants (2ce) 19 - Cincinnati Bengals 20 - Dallas Cowboys 23 - San Francisco 49ers 31 - St. Louis Rams Four of those losses came against top 5 Defenses in the league. However our offense also lost to the next to last Defense in the league and we struggled against the worst Defense in the league. Our wins came against: (Rank - Team) 4 - Philadelphia Eagles (2ce) 17 - Cleveland Browns 20 - Dallas Cowboys 25 - Seattle Seahawks 26 - New Orleans Saints 28 - Arizona Cardinals 32 - Detroit Lions Two wins all year against the upper half of the NFL's defenses, 6 wins against the bad defenses in the league. I want to believe that we were on fire in the first half of the year and then collapsed but I can't. What I see when I look at the offense is that when they were playing softball and playing the chumps in the league we could hang with them and when we played the better teams outside of Philly, we got our butts handed to us. If you want to look at the offense for 2008 I have to think that we were exactly where we ended up...not a bad team but nothing special and not something to draw comparrisons of yet. If we beat the bad teams and lost against the good teams we woulda been 10-6 and not 8-8 but we couldn't do that either. Gibbs in his hayday used to talk about trap games against bad teams and that got us twice this year. Bottom line to me is I don't see much to be happy about with the offense until I see something improve. I don't see much to compare this too. The offense was crappy against solid Defenses and decent against the worst teams in the league. That's not good. On the other hand the optimist could sit there and say that Atlanta and Baltimore just two teams who turned it around this year offensively shows that a team can go from crap to great in one year but they also got brand new coaches and QB's to turn this around. Our teams not going to change QB's, we are a year older, seems the boat has sailed on this group in my eyes. If you want to compare this team to others I think we are at the last stages of collapse before we end up with a one win season. I'd love to see these numbers you posted and believe that we are ready to turn the corner here but I don't see it. I hope I'm wrong but the situation isn't pretty in my eyes. Not sure what you see here with this post. I'm not trying to be a jerk, just don't see what others do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 True, but look at what they became....they stuck with Marty (for a while at least) and they stuck with Cam. Now Cam is regarded as an offensive genius (a term used way too frequently), or at least a guy that in other threads people are comparing his success to our success. So using this year as 'evidence' that Zorn has too much on his plate, or that Zorn isn't ready to be a HC or OC or whatever else, seems to be contradictory to history. I've stated what I think about what we have here now. The San Deigo Chargers offense in 2002 had Drew Brees and LaDainian Tomlinson. Two guys to power an offense that could end up in the Hall of Fame when all is said and done. We don't have that. Marty in his time there was: 2006 = 14-02 2005 = 09-07 2004 = 12-04 2003 = 04-12 2002 = 08-08 Does any one on this forum believe that if Jim Zorn goes 4-12 next year that he would be brought back for a chance to go 12-4 the following year? I'm sorry man but I do not think that Snyder would stand behind Jim Zorn if he did that next year. We don't have the players that San Diego had. In 2004 the Chargers had Antonio Gates playing and they went on to have winning records the rest of his stint there. I love Cooley and unlike some here I really appreciate the effort and hard work that Portis gives us but they don't match up to LT and AG. If we had the players to go along with the hope then I'd believe we could do this. I have lost almost all faith in Jason Campbell and Jim Zorn if we are playing any of the good teams in the league. We didn't have a hard faught, deserved 8-8 year. We beat some creampuffs and didn't improve on offense. I don't think this comparison between the Chargers and us is deserved. At least not yet. It could change, but with Vinny showing year after year the inability to put together a team I don't think it will. The problems the front office, not the coach in my opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 Or if you want a team that we compare to that did better in their next year, look at the 1991 Cowboys (first year under Norv Turner). Thats a team that went on to win the SB the following year. Or if you want a team that our offense was better than, look at the 1999 Eagles, they were a playoff team the following year. I'd say I agree with Metalhead that we're in good company. The 1991 Cowboys had not one but three Hall of Fame players on that offense. The Eagles have the second best QB this decade in the league, a guy who almost single handly took them to 5 NFC Championship games and is a first ballot Hall of Famer. These players do not simply grow on trees or magically appear. We have arguably one player who has a good shot at the Hall of Fame (Chris Samuals) and another one who might get there eventually (Clinton Portis) but neither of these players is a caliber of player to single handily put this team in the playoffs let alone further then that. Comparing the 2008 Redskins to the 1991 Dallas Cowboys is ummm how do I say this gently....not right to me. If you think this team is on the cusp of greatness then all I can say is I hope to hell your right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted January 12, 2009 Author Share Posted January 12, 2009 The 1991 Cowboys had not one but three Hall of Fame players on that offense. The Eagles have the second best QB this decade in the league, a guy who almost single handly took them to 5 NFC Championship games and is a first ballot Hall of Famer. These players do not simply grow on trees or magically appear. We have arguably one player who has a good shot at the Hall of Fame (Chris Samuals) and another one who might get there eventually (Clinton Portis) but neither of these players is a caliber of player to single handily put this team in the playoffs let alone further then that. Comparing the 2008 Redskins to the 1991 Dallas Cowboys is ummm how do I say this gently....not right to me. If you think this team is on the cusp of greatness then all I can say is I hope to hell your right. You're reading way too much into my posts. I brought up the 1991 Cowboys to counter the 2002 Chargers being 4-12 argument. What I posted the stats for is that I wanted to see how other teams did their first year with a team. There are several coaches who didn't have HOF resumes to work with who we did better than. Thats something that gives me optimism. I'm not saying that everything is rosy though and you bring up some good points. I like that as opposed to just "I hate Zorn" rhetoric. I guess thats why the games are played though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bubba9497 Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 good research thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
addicted Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 You're reading way too much into my posts. I brought up the 1991 Cowboys to counter the 2002 Chargers being 4-12 argument.What I posted the stats for is that I wanted to see how other teams did their first year with a team. There are several coaches who didn't have HOF resumes to work with who we did better than. Thats something that gives me optimism. I've read some of the stuff you've been posting most notably the Reinhart post and this one and you my online comrad are an optimist. Since I am not one to rain on a parade usually and only like to vent to selfishly feel better I want you to know that it is refreshing to remember how bad teams can go good. My own personal fears about the team are like I stated....Vinny Ceratto has us closer to a 1 win season then a 16 win one. I can say with no hesitation that if one of us is right I would much rather be the one called out and be shown how wrong I am. Keep up the optimistic posts, they are refreshing. I'm not saying that everything is rosy though and you bring up some good points. I like that as opposed to just "I hate Zorn" rhetoric. I guess thats why the games are played though. I don't hate Zorn, but I'm not impressed with what he did here either. My arguement with Zorn is his lack of demanding respect from the players. I tend to believe that the Don Shulas, the Joe Gibbs, the Vince Lombardi's in NFL history would never have apologized when a player went off in the media and disrespected him like Portis did. These men would have tied Portis up to a goal post in duck tape and told his Defense to treat him like a punching bag. Jim Zorn's lack of strong leadership is a distraction and a character flaw that I don't see him over coming. As well as his ego. It seems strange to write those two character flaws in the same sentence so maybe I don't understand the Zen of Zorn but his ego and beliefs about rookies and his play calling are another character flaw that I don't see us over coming next season. Our offense was unimaginative. Our play calling was stubborn and passive. The dramatic change we were expecting to see in Campbell never materalized. And we took a step backwards when other teams took bigger strides forwards. This was a year after the Giants won the Superbowl, it was our year to win it all for the third time after they did and here we sit watching teams we beat play for the chance to go to the Superbowl. And I place the blame for this failure on Jim Zorn and no one else. Jim Zorn failed this year and has some troubling flaws facing him. As for the future, I must say the man I'm most disappointed with today is Daniel Snyder. Someone has to work so damn hard to be as screwed up as this man is for continuing to put any trust into Vinny Ceratto. Vinny Ceratto has never placed together a winning football team. Vinny selected 10 players in last years draft and didn't address the most glaring needs of the team. Vinny during the season never went and locked up our free agent players whom we might just want to resign before they hit free agency. Vinny has failed repeatedily and cost us a real chance to become a great team. But Vinny couldn't do that alone and that's where it falls on Daniel Snyders shoulders. If Snyder would get his ego in check and see how bad the results are that we've gotten from Vinny and how his friend has screwed us time and again then he would fire his butt today. But nepitism rules the roost and Vinny isn't going anywhere. Snyder says .500 is good enough for him so Vinny stays. Until he's gone we won't win anything again and it makes me sad. So when I see posts like this one I gotta say something. Thanks for letting me vent Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimster Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 True, but look at what they became....they stuck with Marty (for a while at least) and they stuck with Cam. Now Cam is regarded as an offensive genius (a term used way too frequently), or at least a guy that in other threads people are comparing his success to our success. So using this year as 'evidence' that Zorn has too much on his plate, or that Zorn isn't ready to be a HC or OC or whatever else, seems to be contradictory to history. Cam is what turned that team around. AJ Smith brought in Cam to run a real offense and get away from the Martyball that made them 4-12 as well as coached Brees up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
REDALERT Posted January 12, 2009 Share Posted January 12, 2009 The true test will be 2009 and what adjustments have been made, period. To have Jason Campbell with another year under his belt in the WCO and 3 solid 2nd year players in Thomas, Kelly and Davis. Eventhough they didn't see much playing time, Jim Zorn must find ways to get these guys involved in the offense. I'm quite sure some newbees will be onboard when it comes to the OL, so next year should be no excuse. I'm sorry, I have to somewhat agree with the new guy (Addicted). Eventhough the stats you provided Thinking Skins is very enlightening in comparison to first year coaches, I just didn't see any growth from start to finish. Yet, what I did witness was a coach that got a little over his head and out smarted during the 2nd half of the season. And it wasn't like he out smarted anyone during the first half of the season. It was just the defense played up to par, Jason Campbell played keep away and Portis ran us into thinking everything was kosar. But when teams decided to make us one dimensional, we flopped. The real flaws and colors of the team really begin to show and Zorn couldn't put out the fire, not even a sprinkle. I mean, nothing didn't really change to convince me or others like (Addicted)that this offense can be productive. And even though Zorn continuously stated that Campbell had made progress, I just didn't see it from start to finish. Maybe next year will be diffrent. But if we see the same lethargic offense that sputtered toward the finish line like this year, or our receivers incapable of getting open and Campbell unable to find an open receiver. Then I seriuosly think it's time to hit the speed dial and start putting together a plan to bring in some adequate coaches that understand how to put players in positions to make plays. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted January 13, 2009 Author Share Posted January 13, 2009 Cam is what turned that team around. AJ Smith brought in Cam to run a real offense and get away from the Martyball that made them 4-12 as well as coached Brees up. Yeah, but cam's first year there as the OC was 2002 (unless wikipedia is wrong, which it has been known to be from time to time), which is the sams as Marty's first year there. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cam_Cameron http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marty_Schottenheimer Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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