Lessons Norv Taught Me

[Oldfan]

I enjoy debate, but I got far more than I had bargained for in August, 2007 when I offered my opinion that, given the Chargers unique situation, they made a good decision in hiring Norv Turner as their head coach. A long-running, contentious debate resulted in Om's thread, The Turner Zone. Several posters took delight in bashing me while I stood firm, the Lone Ranger, in Norv's defense. I didn't even have Tonto.

The experience got me interested enough to closely follow Norv's roller coaster ride with the Chargers and I took from it some ideas that can be applied to the Redskins organization.

It would have been a good idea if Dan Snyder had kept Norv as his head coach but trimmed his authority on personnel matters as the Chargers have. There are only a handful of coaches capable of running an efficient offense in the NFL, Norv Turner has been one of them. This thought led to an opinion on how the Redskins should be managed.

Before Norv, the management situation in San Diego was dysfunctional with Marty and A.J. Smith not speaking to each other. It's important that Owner, GM and Head Coach have a good, cooperative relationship because a management system should be continually evolving, not just improving each year, but adapting to changes in the game.

I don't want to hear about Cowher, Shanahan, Holmgren or Pioli. I want to see continuity in management. Dan isn't going anywhere; Vinny might have the perfect personality to deal with him; and Jim Zorn seems to have plenty to offer in this triumvirate. I think the head coaching job should be manned by someone focused on the passing game because that's the elusive element and the key to winning in today's NFL.

In the media and in this forum, there is a lot of talk about the psychological factors of coaching: leadership and motivation. I think it's 99% baloney. There are two huge factors determining the outcome of football games: How good is the coach's plan and how much talent is available to execute it?

I want to see continuity in scheme: keep the parts that work, dump the parts that don't. I've decided that Norv Turner doesn't have enough ball control incorporated into his scheme. His high-scoring offense doesn't help his defense as much as it should. Zorn has the ball control, but lacks Norv's skill in play calling and attacking defenses. I'd like to stick with Jimmy while building his support system. Clock management, a Zorn weakness, might be delegated to Chris Meidt who has more time on Sunday to think four or five plays in advance.

Norv has a reputation of improving his QBs. That's an important contribution to the team effort and one that Jim Zorn shares. I am very impressed with the work he is doing with Jason Campbell. That makes possible the Quarterback Shuffle Strategy. It works like Denver's Running Back Shuffle Strategy.

Denver created an offensive scheme that maximized the RB's potential and then they traded them for other players. Except for Champ Bailey, the Broncos did a poor job of talent evaluation. So, the execution was poor but the strategy was sound.

I think Zorn has the talent to create a quarterback-friendly scheme that will maximize their potential. I think we should re-sign Campbell to a hard-bargained contract and then trade him for draft picks after he has a good year in 2009. Then, we repeat the process with Colt and Colt's replacement. If we draft well, we can be sitting pretty after a few trades. I think Z should add a QB out of the draft every year to keep the shuffle moving.

[SkinsHokieFan]

I think Zorn has the talent to create a quarterback-friendly scheme that will maximize their potential. I think we should re-sign Campbell to a hard-bargained contract and then trade him for draft picks after he has a good year in 2009. Then, we repeat the process with Colt and Colt's replacement. If we draft well, we can be sitting pretty after a few trades. I think Z should add a QB out of the draft every year to keep the shuffle moving.

You want continuity but also want a QB shuffle?

The QB is the most important position on the field. Having a consistent good one is very hard to find.

[TimmySmith]

Norv and Zorn are incredibly similar head coaches in many ways.

1. Norv got pushed around by players.

2. Norv never saw the value in the running game to win games. Stephen Davis would have 110 yards through 3 quarters and get 2 carries in the 4th.

3. Norv had terrible clock management.

4. Norv never valued special teams. He took whatever came.

5. Norv never put the premium on home games or division games. Sorry, not all games should be treated equally.

Basically Norv was a 1st quarter coach and a front runner. If he was down at the half you could pack it in. If he was only up 3 in the 4th you could pack it in. To his credit, Norv is a much better head coach today.

[Oldfan]

You want continuity but also want a QB shuffle?

The QB is the most important position on the field. Having a consistent good one is very hard to find.

I want continuity in management and scheme.

[Oldfan]

1. Norv got pushed around by players.

2. Norv never saw the value in the running game to win games. Stephen Davis would have 110 yards through 3 quarters and get 2 carries in the 4th.

3. Norv had terrible clock management.

4. Norv never valued special teams. He took whatever came.

5. Norv never put the premium on home games or division games. Sorry, not all games should be treated equally.

You're wrong about 1,2, 4 and 5 and both 3s;)

Norv has been criticized mostly for his failures to motivate which I don't give a high priority as I said.

[jrockster21]

You want continuity but also want a QB shuffle?

The QB is the most important position on the field. Having a consistent good one is very hard to find.

Yeah...Oldfan, you've said some ridiculous things, but this takes the cake.

[Chump Bailey]

Norv has a reputation of improving his QBs.

He's the only coach that actually made Alex Smith look like a viable starting QB in this league.

I hope you're right about Zorn OF.

[zoony]

I'm not ready to call this season a success for the Chargers. Because the moon and stars aligned so that the Chargers happened to play in the worst division in the history of the NFL with an 8-8 record is, to me, pretty dam funny... not evidence of success.

I think Zorn has the talent to create a quarterback-friendly scheme that will maximize their potential. I think we should re-sign Campbell to a hard-bargained contract and then trade him for draft picks after he has a good year in 2009. Then, we repeat the process with Colt and Colt's replacement. If we draft well, we can be sitting pretty after a few trades. I think Z should add a QB out of the draft every year to keep the shuffle moving.

well, problem is even a "hard bargain" contract is going to have to include signing bonus money, which is going to make a trade incredibly difficult. Better to wait on the contract, franchise him, then trade- if thats what you want to do.

As for adding a QB every year, I'm all for it. But for different reasons.

You are quick to give Zorn credit for developing QBs. I'll need to see more, much more, before I'm ready to crown him. Maybe JC's footwork and mechanics have gotten better- but his numbers and winning % sure haven't. If anything he's regressed from where he was in week 1.

.....

[Oldfan]

Yeah...Oldfan, you've said some ridiculous things, but this takes the cake.

The premise is that Zorn will create consistent QBs. You have to argue that and tell me why you don't think so. Just labeling the idea "ridiculous" isn't an argument.

[SUpartyCommish]

Norv Turner is a better coach today then he was back in '99...I for one don't regret parting ways with Turner after 8+ yrs

[WARPATH '82]

I want continuity in management and scheme.

We've had continuity in management...thats for sure. The problem is that the management has been changing the scheme by hiring new coaches once a scheme had been somewhat figured out. What happens with this team will be determined by the management. For Zorn's scheme to work, he needs the management to get him the players that he need. Are those players on this team now?? If not, how long will it take management to get him the players that he needs? We shouldnt be in a rush or hold our breaths, its been almost 20 years since something significant has happened with this orginization, we can wait another 20!

[TimmySmith]

You're wrong about 1,2, 4 and 5 and both 3s;)

Norv has been criticized mostly for his failures to motivate which I don't give a high priority as I said.

Do I at least get credit for spelling and punctuation?

[Oldfan]

You are quick to give Zorn credit for developing QBs. I'll need to see more, much more, before I'm ready to crown him. Maybe JC's footwork and mechanics have gotten better- but his numbers and winning % sure haven't. If anything he's regressed from where he was in week 1.

JC's numbers and winning pct will look much better next year when the 2008 rookie receivers make their contribution and Z gets some of the scheme wrinkles ironed out. Jason will be much more expensive then.

[Oldfan]

Do I at least get credit for spelling and punctuation?

I give you credit for fast editing:D

[Oldfan]

Norv Turner is a better coach today then he was back in '99...I for one don't regret parting ways with Turner after 8+ yrs

In what ways is he better? I thought his weakness was in personnel and Casserly had the same problem.

[WARPATH '82]

The premise is that Zorn will create consistent QBs. You have to argue that and tell me why you don't think so. Just labeling the idea "ridiculous" isn't an argument.

Hell, I'll make the argument!! What has Zorn done to prove to u or give you the idea that he can develop consistent QBs...Matt Hasselback?? Or was it the throwing of dummies at Campbell that did it for you?? Hell, at least Norv had a hand in Aikemans development, and was a decent coordinator? The Jury is still out on Zorn, I give JC a pass because he did have to learn do what a new coach asked him to do this year. Hopefully what was taught and learned last season will be put to test this year with little regression.

[Oldfan]

We've had continuity in management...thats for sure. The problem is that the management has been changing the scheme by hiring new coaches once a scheme had been somewhat figured out.

Joe Gibbs made several scheme changes in his four years. From the way their coaching search went' date=' it was obvious that Dan and Vinny wanted a WCO guy. that's the first time that either was involved with the on the field decision-making.

What happens with this team will be determined by the management. For Zorn's scheme to work, he needs the management to get him the players that he need. Are those players on this team now?? If not, how long will it take management to get him the players that he needs?

Those the receivers drafted should fill most of the need. They need a stud OT. A top-notch passing game will push this team to another level even if there isn't significan improvement elsewhere.

[Zhouse]

Interesting idea with the QB shuffle. But it will be really hard to do that with QBs I think. Denver was able to do that with RBs because that position is easier to fill than most on an NFL roster.

It is really difficult to just simply replace the QB and continue to have success with your offense. That idea might work if you have a true #1 QB and then groom your backups for possible trades. But you will somehow need to show they can be a #1 just like NE was able to do with Cassel.

[TimmySmith]

I think Zorn has the talent to create a quarterback-friendly scheme that will maximize their potential. I think we should re-sign Campbell to a hard-bargained contract and then trade him for draft picks after he has a good year in 2009. Then, we repeat the process with Colt and Colt's replacement. If we draft well, we can be sitting pretty after a few trades. I think Z should add a QB out of the draft every year to keep the shuffle moving.

One possible flaw in your theory. If Campbell does not pan out the whole thing turns to dust. This is the major difference between Campbell guys and Brennan guys. Campbell guys look at Hasselbeck as an example of Zorn's handywork, yet Campbell and Hasselbeck could not be more different. Brennan is more in the Hassbeck mold. Your Denver analogy of RBs held true only because they used certain RBs in a similar mold, they just didn't throw anyone in there.

[Oldfan]

What has Zorn done to prove to u or give you the idea that he can develop consistent QBs...Matt Hasselback??

I'm in lock-step with Jaworski, Simms and Aikman in my thinking that mechanics will ultimately limit a QB's potential. Zorn's work with Hasslebeck and Campbell are the only two complete makeovers I'm aware of. I think the man has a gift.

I had Jason Campbell pegged as a waste of three picks when I first saw him. I've changed my mind.

[WARPATH '82]

Joe Gibbs made several scheme changes in his four years. From the way their coaching search went, it was obvious that Dan and Vinny wanted a WCO guy. that's the first time that either was involved with the on the field decision-making.

Those the receivers drafted should fill most of the need. They need a stud OT. A top-notch passing game will push this team to another level even if there isn't significan improvement elsewhere.

Yes Gibbs made several changes, primarily to fit the personnel that he had, not to change just for the sake of change. Beleiving that all of our problems are solved with ONE top notch OT is an allusion. The recivers were drafted to fill the bill I agree. But if you have truly watched the WCO the QB that fits the mold is on our roster but it isnt JC!! Can you guess who it is??

[Oldfan]

Interesting idea with the QB shuffle. But it will be really hard to do that with QBs I think. Denver was able to do that with RBs because that position is easier to fill than most on an NFL roster.

Harder to do, yes. But, QBs are worth far more in trade than RBs and Zorn seems unusuaally qualifed to pull it off.

It is really difficult to just simply replace the QB and continue to have success with your offense. That idea might work if you have a true #1 QB and then groom your backups for possible trades. But you will somehow need to show they can be a #1 just like NE was able to do with Cassel.

Matt Cassell is a good example of how well this might work. I doubt that Cassell is a better QB than Jason Campbell, but his trade value is higher because of the more successful scheme in New england.

[nightbird]

In what ways is he better? I thought his weakness was in personnel and Casserly had the same problem.

Norv has always been more of a technocrat, a designer of plays, a schemer. He's by all accounts a very nice guy and someone who really knows offense, but it's not the same thing as leading, inspiring, motivating, keeping a group of 53 together through tough times.

Contrasted with coaches like Marty and Dungy whom you'd call "a leader of men."

The Redskins were just exhausting to root for during Norval's tenure, and a lot of it was his fault.

Casserly did have trouble adjusting to the salary cap era, and so our personnel was not as good as it should have been. We spent 1st round picks on people who simply had no ability to play pro football (Andre Johnson, Tom Carter) and others who simply had no business being in polite society (Michael Westbrook). Having the franchise in limbo with an aging JKC before he passed, with no heir apparent, didn't help either.

And of course, when you miss on a top 5 draft pick at QB, that will set your franchise back no matter who you are (actually, if Jeff Fisher is your coach, you can recover pretty quickly). See Joey Harrington, David Carr, Tim Couch, Akili Smith, etc.

However, offensively we found a legit NFL qb in Gus Frerrotte, put together a running game with Terry Allen/Skip Hicks/Stephen Davis, had veteran leadership with Ed Simmons and Henry Ellard, along with emerging young players like Tre Johnson, Leslie Shepard.

Our downfall was twofold.

Defensively, we were downright awful. Consistently pathetic, with no pass rush and a weakling defensive line getting pushed around all day.

We complain about our D-line now, but DANG do the names Mark Boutte, William Gaines, Sterling Palmer, Tony Woods ring a bell?

You know how we're miserable about bringing in 34-year-old Jason Taylor with a hefty price tag to do jack squat? It's a flashback to Dana Stubblefield and "Big Daddy" Wilkinson.

Aside from that, we folded in big games, especially late in the season. So many times we'd get off to solid starts, flying under the radar as a "feel good" media story in October.

Then the playoff picture would firm up, and Norv simply could not get us ready. We'd get shoved around. We'd suffer awful 4th quarter meltdowns.

It was like every december, our team would get off the bus with a chess board, and the other team would show up with a box of knives and mallets.

Norv just wasn't a good enough head coach.

He had a losing record against the ENTIRE NFC East. For you kids out there, the Cardinals used to be in that division. So I'll repeat, Norv Turner -- over EIGHT YEARS -- had a losing record against ALL FOUR DIVISION RIVALS.

His firing was fully justified, if not overdue.

I'll say he's improved, but I still wouldn't want him anywhere near my team unless as offensive coordinator.

[WARPATH '82]

He had a losing record against the ENTIRE NFC East. For you kids out there, the Cardinals used to be in that division. So I'll repeat, Norv Turner -- over EIGHT YEARS -- had a losing record against ALL FOUR DIVISION RIVALS.

His firing was fully justified, if not overdue.

I'll say he's improved, but I still wouldn't want him anywhere near my team unless as offensive coordinator.

Thanks for the memories!!:doh:

[TD_washingtonredskins]

Aside from that, we folded in big games, especially late in the season. So many times we'd get off to solid starts, flying under the radar as a "feel good" media story in October.

Then the playoff picture would firm up, and Norv simply could not get us ready. We'd get shoved around. We'd suffer awful 4th quarter meltdowns.

It was like every december, our team would get off the bus with a chess board, and the other team would show up with a box of knives and mallets.

Uh oh...not a good sign for the current coach. 2008 was as much a "classic Norv" season as this team has had since 2000!