ddub52 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 We don't necessarily have to hit on a late rounder every year. Every other year would do it.No, I brought Norv into the discussion on this point only to draw the comparision with Zorn of two coaches with a reputation for improving QBs. The inspiration for the "QB shuffle" came from Denver, not from Norv. How can you compare a QB shuffle with a running back shuffle? I would say that Denver has had so much success in the running game because of scheme, not necessaily because a particular coach that develops and improves their running backs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted January 6, 2009 Author Share Posted January 6, 2009 Denver has won a lot of championships since Elway left What's your point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins-in-CT Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 I look for Cassell to be shopped, BTW. Word on the street is that Cassell is going to get the Franchise tag from NE. I predict Brady will be shopped and Cassell locked up. It's kind of like Bledsoe/Brady all over again. Hey - maybe Tom will end up in Dallas. I dont' think they will shop Brady, rather they won't let Cassell go without getting something for him. Did he play well enough for some team to give up 2 first rounders? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted January 6, 2009 Author Share Posted January 6, 2009 LOL He doesnt have to do anything.He can call it ridiculous all he wants to. Sure he can and I can tell him it's not an argument if I want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted January 6, 2009 Author Share Posted January 6, 2009 How can you compare a QB shuffle with a running back shuffle? I would say that Denver has had so much success in the running game because of scheme, not necessaily because a particular coach that develops and improves their running backs You missed the point of the OP. read it again. I can't explain it any better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatmeworry Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 I'm not even sure Norv is that great an OC. He got his rep when the Cowboys had Smith, Pushoff Irvin and Aikman. He's had a couple of OC gigs with nothing special coming out of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WARPATH '82 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Word on the street is that Cassell is going to get the Franchise tag from NE.I dont' think they will shop Brady, rather they won't let Cassell go without getting something for him. Did he play well enough for some team to give up 2 first rounders? Well everyone will get another year to see him play because he will not be released in 09. http://www.postchronicle.com/news/or...12197381.shtml Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatmeworry Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 No, I brought Norv into the discussion on this point only to draw the comparision with Zorn of two coaches with a reputation for improving QBs. The inspiration for the "QB shuffle" came from Denver, not from Norv. Outside Aikman, a high draft choice, who has he turned into an NFL QB? Rivers was a good qb before Norv got there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Skins-in-CT Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Well everyone will get another year to see him play because he will not be released in 09.http://www.postchronicle.com/news/or...12197381.shtml He is a UFA, which is why they franchised him. I suppose someone could still give up to 1st round picks for him if they thought he was worth it since that is what it would take (provided the Pats didn't match the offer), but I don't think he is worth it. I suppose better to make him one of the highest paid QB's in the league than let him go to another team? Tough one there since many people I talk to, including Pats fans think he is a system QB. Franchise tag still doesn't mean they signed him though - I think they are taking a gamble that someone wants him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted January 6, 2009 Author Share Posted January 6, 2009 OF,I think this is an interesting post. Thanks for that. MSF, my regrets for the delayed response. I missed this post on the first run through. As for your assertion that it is all about scheme, well, like any argument that is all or nothing I can't buy it 100% because very few things are all or nothing. The two main factors are the coaching plan and the talent to execute the plan. I think coaches whose plans work, win games. When they win games, they command respect. A man whose plans fail loses respect of the players. I don't think it has much to do with personality. I have to say that when you mentioned mechanics two words popped into my head: Billy. Kilmer. I think it's important in many cases, but not the be-all and end-all. I said that I agree with Zorn and others that mechanics limits the potential of a player. I don't see Billy as an exception to the rule. Thanks again for starting this thought-provoking thread. Your input is appreciated as always. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gart Monk Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 Why has Norv always supported that funky KO coverage formation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted January 6, 2009 Author Share Posted January 6, 2009 Outside Aikman, a high draft choice, who has he turned into an NFL QB? Rivers was a good qb before Norv got there. Rivers was not as good before Norv as he is now. I said that Norv has the reputation for improving QBss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WARPATH '82 Posted January 6, 2009 Share Posted January 6, 2009 He is a UFA, which is why they franchised him. I suppose someone could still give up to 1st round picks for him if they thought he was worth it since that is what it would take (provided the Pats didn't match the offer), but I don't think he is worth it. I suppose better to make him one of the highest paid QB's in the league than let him go to another team? Tough one there since many people I talk to, including Pats fans think he is a system QB. Franchise tag still doesn't mean they signed him though - I think they are taking a gamble that someone wants him. In my post I linked the article stating that Brady is out for '09. Thats why i said we'll get to see Cassel play, but as for leaving NE in 09, its not gonna happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted January 6, 2009 Author Share Posted January 6, 2009 Why has Norv always supported that funky KO coverage formation? Dunno. Can't help you with that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pounds Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Norv and Zorn are incredibly similar head coaches in many ways. Eerily so, I would say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatmeworry Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Rivers was not as good before Norv as he is now. I said that Norv has the reputation for improving QBss. Actually he was pretty good for a secod year QB. Haven't noticed any dramatic improvement. Good post though I must say I don't agree. Quality QBs don't grow on trees (read Redskins). When you get one you should keep them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pounds Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 The premise is that Zorn will create consistent QBs. You have to argue that and tell me why you don't think so. Just labeling the idea "ridiculous" isn't an argument. I think this is a great topic you bring up in the OP, but respectfully disagree with a few of the things you mention. Firstly, one must take into account that Jim Zorn is no longer just a lowly, taskmaster of a QB coach; he now has far greater responsibilities. He has to worry about a whole offense operating as one proficient and consolidated piece, not just the QB. Secondly, the premise that a coach can "create" any semblance of a solid QB far over estimates any one coach's teaching capabilities; the scheme is what matters most (along with player talent). It's what helped the 49ers to five Super Bowls behind Joe Montana and Steve Young; having capable players properly fitting in to great/cutting edge schemes. Jim Zorn has done nothing (as of yet) to prove his system works. Forget the Matthew Hasselbeck's (because that quality of QB cannot be found in every draft), look at the Seneca Wallace's, the Brock Huard's and tell me if you really think that Zorn can simply flip QBs for draft picks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pounds Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I had Jason Campbell pegged as a waste of three picks when I first saw him. I've changed my mind. I think you were right in your initial assessment. Don't get me wrong, I like Jason and think he can be a very good QB, but in the Doug Williams, Mark Rypien mold; he's definitely not an ideal fit for the WCO, not in its most fundamental state, at least. What Zorn is attempting to do in his work with Jason is fit a square peg in a round hole. Zorn is fighting the physics of Jason's athletic make-up. Jason's a long strider with a slow wind-up and he's too mechanical and deliberate in his movement; he lacks the fluidity needed to run this kind of timing, precision-based offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted January 7, 2009 Author Share Posted January 7, 2009 Firstly, one must take into account that Jim Zorn is no longer just a lowly, taskmaster of a QB coach; he now has far greater responsibilities. He has to worry about a whole offense operating as one proficient and consolidated piece, not just the QB. Yes, but in what way do you see this in conflict with what I've said? Secondly, the premise that a coach can "create" any semblance of a solid QB far over estimates any one coach's teaching capabilities; the scheme is what matters most (along with player talent). I explained that I'm in sync with Zorn and those other former NFL QBs I mentioned linking mechanics with potential. If you don't agree, that's fine. Jim Zorn has done nothing (as of yet) to prove his system works. The WCO has been proven, but my QB shuffle is dependent on Zorn's success in winning games, of course. Forget the Matthew Hasselbeck's (because that quality of QB cannot be found in every draft), look at the Seneca Wallace's, the Brock Huard's and tell me if you really think that Zorn can simply flip QBs for draft picks. You regard Hasslebeck as a quality QB BECAUSE of Zorn's work and because he performed well with a good supporting cast. Those other QBs haven't had the same opportunity. We don't know how they'll do. Nor do we know if Zorn had input into their selection in the draft. He probably did, but we can't be sure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DieselPwr44 Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 What Norv taught me?? That no matter how many ways both he and his team found to lose........ "What we do works." Isn't there a statue of limitations on coattail riding?? Cause the coattails of the Triplets are worn out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tr1 Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Oldfan digs 8-8. Awesome! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted January 7, 2009 Author Share Posted January 7, 2009 I'm not even sure Norv is that great an OC. He got his rep when the Cowboys had Smith, Pushoff Irvin and Aikman. He's had a couple of OC gigs with nothing special coming out of them. His record at every stop except Oakland has been exceptional. The list of RBs who excelled with Norv as an OC is impressive. San Diego had to offer him the HC position to pry him away from the Niners (Frank Gore). A lateral transfer would have been against league rules. San Diego wanted Norv back to maintain continuity with scheme. Norv was LT's first coach and the Chargers with Marty had kept the scheme Norv installed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
deejaydana Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 JC has done NOTHING to warrant a new contract. He also has no leverage in negotiations because of his lack of performance and, as such, no other teams will be calling for his services. Now, he can change all this with a solid 2009 season (and I'd be pleasantly surprised and supportive if it happens) BUT, I just don't see it happening. Besides which, I don't think Cerrato would know lady leverage was on this side at the bargaining table if she blew into his ear. It will be telling to see what happens because I don't see JC getting the starter's role the entire 2009 season if he hasn't shown some major strides by the season's halfway point and, if we are struggling, Zorn will have to yank him for Colt because he will be fretting his coaching job at that point and...wait, I guess I got a little ahead of myself there. It will be telling... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SirClintonPortis Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 Forget the Matthew Hasselbeck's (because that quality of QB cannot be found in every draft), look at the Seneca Wallace's, the Brock Huard's and tell me if you really think that Zorn can simply flip QBs for draft picks. So how did he manage to pull of a 168.6 yards per game he started , 54.8% completion percentage, and 6.3 yards average, and was booed off the field in 2001 only to turn it around quite a bit a year later and outright breaking out in 2003? Also, the man himself has nothing but praise for Zorn's coaching, according to this report: http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/sports/2002768873_zorn29.html This is the most relevant excerpt: "That first year was a tough year for me here," he says. "All veteran quarterbacks go through a tough year or two. He was a perfect quarterback coach for me at that point. Had he not been my coach, who knows, I don't know if I would have made it through. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirk Diggler Posted January 7, 2009 Share Posted January 7, 2009 I'm in lock-step with Jaworski, Simms and Aikman in my thinking that mechanics will ultimately limit a QB's potential. They didn't seem to limit Favre's potential as we won 3 MVPs and went to 2 super bowls. Though I guess you could say he'd have won 5 MVPs and 3 Super Bowls with better mechanics. Zorn's work with Hasslebeck and Campbell are the only two complete makeovers I'm aware of. Tom Brady had very average mechanics coming into the league in 2000. He might have had the best mechanics in the league in 2006 & 2007. So smooth, quick feet, quick release, and very consistent release point. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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