Learning the West Coast Offense: Part 2

[Major Harris]

This is true, but it isn't easy. On defense, your MLB is in the best cover position, but he could get caught up in traffic and he has to leave the middle open. If it's not the MLB, then the coverage responsibility depends on whether the RB goes right or left at the snap, in which case, two defenders are occupied on their initial responsibilities. Right?

right.

and what this speaks to is a basic tenant of most quick / short passing games (and offenses in general) find the defender with dual responsibility, and attack him.

high schools / colleges can do that w/ option attacks and the contain / flat man.

flooding the area of that defender is how this type of offense tends to do it. make a defender make a decision, and exploit it.

[KDawg]

flooding the area of that defender is how this type of offense tends to do it. make a defender make a decision, and exploit it.

Which is a great reason to do things like King/Queen. Say you go with a Split Right Formation. The Y is on the right side, along with the Z and the X is to the backside.

Y runs an out, Z runs a fade, X runs a shallow drag, the 2 back on the right side chips and goes out to a route (say a arrow) and the back on the left releases on an arrow route.

Technically, if the defense is in a cover 2, that corner now should be trailed off looking to protect against the out, and now the back is underneath. If he somehow manages to protect against that, he needs to be aware of the backside drag coming across the formation (which should be picked up by the backers, but hey, stuff happens

If they were in man, the corner is run off by the Z running a fade. the safety, if responsible for #2 now jumps up against the out and the Sam Backer would pick up the delayed chip. The X would be picked up by the corner and the Will Backer would take the fullback swinging. It's covered up much better that way, but that fade is now much more dangerous unless the backside safety plays over.

If the OLBs have the #2 man, it's much more open. Let's say it's a man under scheme. The Corner is run off by the fade, with safety help over the top. Probably not where you want to go with the ball. The out from the Y is picked up by the Sam. Now the chip is much more effective, as the Mike is going to have to come over the top and cover the back on the delay. If it's playaction, especially, that MLB is going to be frozen and the delay will be open. Now, the OLB as well as the MLB should get over the top of the route and make a play, probably no more than 4 or 5 yards downfield. But I'll take 4-5 yards a pop.

I really have no idea why I went through all that. There was pretty much no reason to bring it up...

I love this game

[Oldfan]

You're both right.

The play (action) pass is major part of every offense including the WCO.

Bill Walsh lists: "6 categories of passes that are essential to a complete passing attack"

-The 3-step drop

-5 step drop

-7 step drop

-The play pass

-The action pass

-The screen pass

I'll buy that.

However, if Walsh was explaining the WCO offense to someone, as was the intent in this thread, he wouldn't give them give them a list of concepts that are common to nearly all systems where the QB is under center. They need to know how the conventional WCO is uniquely different.

More 3 and 5 step drops

Less 7 step drops

QBs throwing on rhythm

Less play action fakes

More quick, short throws designed for YAC

Less deep throws

[KDawg]

I'll buy that.

However, if Walsh was explaining the WCO offense to someone, as was the intent in this thread, he wouldn't give them give them a list of concepts that are common to nearly all systems where the QB is under center. They need to know how the conventional WCO is uniquely different.

More 3 and 5 step drops

Less 7 step drops

QBs throwing on rhythm

Less play action fakes

More quick, short throws designed for YAC

Less deep throws

I disagree. If someone wants to know an offensive system, you need to explain the entire system. Both the unique stuff and the common practice stuff.

[Oldfan]

I disagree. If someone wants to know an offensive system, you need to explain the entire system. Both the unique stuff and the common practice stuff.

If you think that, why haven't you explained screens, draws, boots and all the other common stuff?

This exchange between us began when I explained that we could expect to see less play action fakes in the WCO than in the Coryell. The reason for that is that the prime advantage of the WCO is in its ability to get the pass released quicker and with better timing on short throws than the Coryell. Since the play fake takes time to execute, it works against the WCO's prime intent.

Furthermore, it's necessary to establish the run first in order to make play action effective. Establishing the run first is not a WCO objective. So, while play action fakes are used in the WCO, they are not seen as frequently as in the Coryell.

If I'm wrong in any of that, will you explain why?

[KDawg]

If you think that, why haven't you explained screens, draws, boots and all the other common stuff?

Because I don't have all day.

This exchange between us began when I explained that we could expect to see less play action fakes in the WCO than in the Coryell. The reason for that is that the prime advantage of the WCO is in its ability to get the pass released quicker and with better timing on short throws than the Coryell. Since the play fake takes time to execute, it works against the WCO's prime intent.

Furthermore, it's necessary to establish the run first in order to make play action effective. Establishing the run first is not a WCO objective. So, while play action fakes are used in the WCO, they are not seen as frequently as in the Coryell.

If I'm wrong in any of that, will you explain why?

First, you're not "wrong". We have a disagreement about the concept of this thread. That's whatever to me. I'm merely stating my opinion that the thread needs to be about all of the concepts of the offense, not just parts. It's a matter of personal preference. No one is wrong in this regard.

I view the WCO as a passing portion of an offensive playbook, not an entire playbook. Sure, there are running plays that have been used by the great WCO coaches, like Walsh. However, I think you can take any running game and add it to a WCO playbook. Typically, you're on the money as far as what a WCO is. Playaction isn't seen as often as a Coryell type playbook, but again, it's preference.

The premise of the WCO doesn't change. Using short, intermediate and long throws and multiple receivers to distract the undercoverage for timing passes. That doesn't change. That is the base of the WCO. But just because you use other stuff doesn't necessarily change your offensive identity. Everyone has something that they go to first, and for us its the basic premise of the WCO as well as a solid running game. Using playaction doesn't change your offensive philosophy, just your style of doing things.

If I were a coach in the NFL, I'd probably use a system similar to the one we use now...

A power running game, coupled with a quick, timing based passing attack with a good mix of playaction. I'm not mentioning screens because I view them as part of a quick, timing based passing game, not because I wouldn't use them.

Maybe it's not the original WCO in it's entirety, but the base of our offense is the WCO, regardless how much playaction we use.

In our offense, we do establish the running game first. Not a basic tenant of the WCO at all. But our passing game still revolves around all the traditional WCO. In my opinion, we're running a near perfect version of the offense, and if the team really grows with it over the next few years, I think we're going to see absolutely phenominal results. But that's an opinion. You don't have to agree with me, but I'm not wrong.

And neither are you.

[KDawg]

I always hate when chalk-talk threads die down

[jtyler42]

I always hate when chalk-talk threads die down

They die down b/c people get too technical and argue small points...

I love these threads as well...I'm an X & O guy!

[KDawg]

They die down b/c people get too technical and argue small points...

I love these threads as well...I'm an X & O guy!

Oh, absolutely. That said, that's why I put the disclaimer in the first post. If I get too technical, don't be shy to ask me to tune it down. If a doctor came in here rambling about medical jargon, I wouldn't have a clue. Actually, if it's anything other than football I don't have a clue

[Voice_of_Reason]

This should be required reading for all posters. Homework assignment.

[KDawg]

This should be required reading for all posters. Homework assignment.

True to your handle.

Good form sir, good form!

[BigRedskinDaddy]

Another great thread, KDawg. I've been busy this week and barely had time to stop in for more than a quick cup of coffee. I'll be around to revive this after the Boys game if you and the others are willing. Good info in here for sure.

[Voice_of_Reason]

True to your handle.

Good form sir, good form!

Thanks.

I have a suggestion for a Part III if you have the time: Route combinations and read progressions. There are so many people who are screaming at the top of their lungs that we don't throw the ball down the field.

Doc Walker is the leader of this pack, with the quote "How difficult is it to run a 9 route" and other completely inane comments. I would love to know more about how these things fit together.

My knowledge comes from a segment that I heard years ago that Steve Young did on Countdown where he broke the whole thing down: progressions, footwork, protection, checks, etc. But the whole segment was like 7 minutes. (I do think that he would be an authority on the WCO, though)

[KDawg]

Thanks.

I have a suggestion for a Part III if you have the time: Route combinations and read progressions. There are so many people who are screaming at the top of their lungs that we don't throw the ball down the field.

Doc Walker is the leader of this pack, with the quote "How difficult is it to run a 9 route" and other completely inane comments. I would love to know more about how these things fit together.

My knowledge comes from a segment that I heard years ago that Steve Young did on Countdown where he broke the whole thing down: progressions, footwork, protection, checks, etc. But the whole segment was like 7 minutes. (I do think that he would be an authority on the WCO, though)

It shall be done

[Voice_of_Reason]

It shall be done

You rock.

[CRAZYHORSE19682003]

What your forgetting is Jason Campbell is incapable of "Learning" He scored the lowest on his IQ test that any QB has ever scored. He is a coach killer, 7 systems in 9 years........why????? Because he will tease you with potential and string you along making you think if he just improves a little here or there we will be ok, but he never does! He continues to be the deer in the headlights, unable to keep up with the speed of the college game let alone the pro game. So systems are simplified to help with the learning curve. That doesn't work so they fire the coordinator thinking that he just couldn't connect with Jason, lets give someone else a chance, Jason has all the physical tools to succeed. This has happened over and over and over, Gibbs, Saunders, Zorn three guys who couldn't get Campbell to perform consistently. Why do you think Gibbs Retired? He saw the writing on the wall, you don't win in this league without decent QB play. Gibbs knew Campbell was Jay Schroeder not Joe Thiesman and he did not want to spend another four years looking for a QB so he bailed.............WAKE UP he can't do it! He works his tail off, as hard or harder than anyone but come Sunday he is limited to the mental capacity he was born with and God bless him he just can't think fast enough to play consistently at this level.

[corrupt3d]

What your forgetting is Jason Campbell is incapable of "Learning" He scored the lowest on his IQ test that any QB has ever scored. He is a coach killer, 7 systems in 9 years........why????? Because he will tease you with potential and string you along making you think if he just improves a little here or there we will be ok, but he never does! He continues to be the deer in the headlights, unable to keep up with the speed of the college game let alone the pro game. So systems are simplified to help with the learning curve. That doesn't work so they fire the coordinator thinking that he just couldn't connect with Jason, lets give someone else a chance, Jason has all the physical tools to succeed. This has happened over and over and over, Gibbs, Saunders, Zorn three guys who couldn't get Campbell to perform consistently. Why do you think Gibbs Retired? He saw the writing on the wall, you don't win in this league without decent QB play. Gibbs knew Campbell was Jay Schroeder not Joe Thiesman and he did not want to spend another four years looking for a QB so he bailed.............WAKE UP he can't do it! He works his tail off, as hard or harder than anyone but come Sunday he is limited to the mental capacity he was born with and God bless him he just can't think fast enough to play consistently at this level.

I stopped reading there, because that's not true. In fact, its so far from the truth that the space between it requires actual days to traverse.

The rest of it, seems like rambling garbage.

[CRAZYHORSE19682003]

I stopped reading there, because that's not true. In fact, its so far from the truth that the space between it requires actual days to traverse.

The rest of it, seems like rambling garbage.

The truth hurts. Jason Campbell scored an 18 on his Wonderlic test lets see how some other QB's might have done.

39 - Aaron Rogers

39 - Eli Manning

37 - Tony Romo sits to pee

36 - Drew Bledsoe* (*won a Super Bowl, but as a backup)

35 - Matt Leinart

33 - Tom Brady

33 - Steve Young

32 - Sage Rosenfels

31 - Matt Schaub

30 - Phillip Rivers

29 - Brady Quinn

29 - Marc Bulger

29 - Matt Hasselbeck

29 - Troy Aikman

29 - John Elway

28 - Drew Brees

28 - Peyton Manning

26 - Jay Cutler

26 - Kyle Orton

26 - Carson Palmer

25 - Ben Roethlisberger

25 - Byron Leftwich

25 - Chad Pennington

22 - Brett Favre

20 - Michael Vick

19 - Tarvaris Jackson

19 - Derek Anderson

19 - A.J. Feeley

18 - Daunte Culpepper

17 - Aaron Brooks

16 - Vince Young (6 on first try)

15 - Steve McNair

14 - David Garrard

11 - Marcus Vick

10 - Jeff George

8 - Chris Leak

Humm look at the QB's with similar scores a who's not of QB's

History and stats don't lie quit being a homer. Jason Campbell can not compete at this level and the Redskins will be a 500 team at BEST with him as the starting QB.

[corrupt3d]

It says here he scored a 28:

http://www.profootballweekly.com/PFW/NFLDraft/Draft+Insider/2005/Wonderlic.htm

Same here:

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/football/2005draft/Campbell,Jason-QB-Auburn.htm

Hell, in the list that you copied from here: http://bleacherreport.com/articles/21587-wonderlic-scores-the-noodles-at-cal it says he scored a 23.

EDIT: And on top of that, you said he had the lowest score of all QB's ever. You just proved that point wrong.

EDIT2: Oh btw, Colt Brennan's wonderlic? http://www.sherdog.net/forums/f48/drafting-nfl-quarterbacks-intelligence-important-754351/

A solid 22.

[KDawg]

What the hell is this? Get out of here with this crap in the thread I created to talk about the WCO. I don't want to hear this Campbell can't do it crap. Props to corrupt3d for proving the other guy wrong, but please stop with this in this thread. There are so many threads you could argue about that in, don't do it here.

[Stucon]

What is scary from all those articles is that in his junior year, Campbell scored only 14 which is a lot closer to illiterate than it is to average. To be fair, he did raise his scores significantly, but maybe they allowed him to bring a translator into the room or maybe just let him take an audio version of the exam. In reality, with millions at stake, getting "coached" for the exam by an agent is a likely explanation for significant improvement from earlier bad scores.

Regardless of his real scores for any given year, he has not demonstrated a level of above average intelligence with the tests or on the field.

In this case, I would agree with Obama in that Change is needed.

[KDawg]

This is NOT a Campbell thread. Please stop posting about Campbell's wonderlic score here. Thanks in advance.

[corrupt3d]

What the hell is this? Get out of here with this crap in the thread I created to talk about the WCO. I don't want to hear this Campbell can't do it crap. Props to corrupt3d for proving the other guy wrong, but please stop with this in this thread. There are so many threads you could argue about that in, don't do it here.

YEah sorry, I didn't want to continue on about this, but I'm not gonna let someone post lies.

What is scary from all those articles is that in his junior year, Campbell scored only 14 which is a lot closer to illiterate than it is to average. To be fair, he did raise his scores significantly, but maybe they allowed him to bring a translator into the room or maybe just let him take an audio version of the exam. In reality, with millions at stake, getting "coached" for the exam by an agent is a likely explanation for significant improvement from earlier bad scores.

Regardless of his real scores for any given year, he has not demonstrated a level of above average intelligence with the tests or on the field.

In this case, I would agree with Obama in that Change is needed.

Campbell had no intention of coming out in his junior year, so it very well could have meant that he didn't try. You don't gain 14 points in one year of college.

This is NOT a Campbell thread. Please stop posting about Campbell's wonderlic score here. Thanks in advance.

^^^What he said. Let's stop.

[RiggosMohawk]

What your forgetting is Jason Campbell is incapable of "Learning" He scored the lowest on his IQ test that any QB has ever scored. He is a coach killer, 7 systems in 9 years........why????? Because he will tease you with potential and string you along making you think if he just improves a little here or there we will be ok, but he never does! He continues to be the deer in the headlights, unable to keep up with the speed of the college game let alone the pro game. So systems are simplified to help with the learning curve. That doesn't work so they fire the coordinator thinking that he just couldn't connect with Jason, lets give someone else a chance, Jason has all the physical tools to succeed. This has happened over and over and over, Gibbs, Saunders, Zorn three guys who couldn't get Campbell to perform consistently. Why do you think Gibbs Retired? He saw the writing on the wall, you don't win in this league without decent QB play. Gibbs knew Campbell was Jay Schroeder not Joe Thiesman and he did not want to spend another four years looking for a QB so he bailed.............WAKE UP he can't do it! He works his tail off, as hard or harder than anyone but come Sunday he is limited to the mental capacity he was born with and God bless him he just can't think fast enough to play consistently at this level.

If you search/replace JC with Vince Young, and change everyone to the Titans' respective coach/ex-coach (Norm Chow did bolt b/c Vince is TERRIBLE), then your post is accurate.

Otherwise, you are incorrect.

[Meatsnack]

kDawg, many thanks for the informative thread. I have a question that you may not be able to answer unless you attend the games. I can't see this on my TIVO'd copies of the games, in any case.

In his pressers, JZ has remarked a few times on the fact that we have guys getting open deep and that Campbell either

A) isn't seeing them because he is seeing his short reads first or

B)that our protection is breaking down before he has a chance to throw to the guy getting open deep.

What have you noticed about Zorn's version of the WCO with respect to the deep ball. We don't seem to throw them but I wonder if that is because the deep patterns aren't being run or if there are other factors such as line play or read progressions at work here. Many thanks in advance.