Do the Cowboys rebuild if they don't win a playoff game?

[ArmchairRedskin]

The KC Joyner numbers only show numbers from the 2007 season and only tells you YPA. Those kind of numbers can be deceiving because they can easily be taken out of context. For example, because the Cowboys scored more points than the Skins last season, teams had to throw more and be less conservative (take shots down the field) against the Cowboys D.

The other flaw in using Joyner's stats to make a claim about who has the better CBs is that it doesn't take Pacman, Jenkins, and Scandrick into account.

We faced more pass attempts than you guys did last year.

How can you take into account somebody that 1) hasn't played since 2006 is a rookie?

We're returning proven commodities, not question marks.

[Mr. Jones]

So you're saying the Redskins secondary was better last year, right?

Because of health the redskin's CBs preformed better then the cowboy's CBs last year. With the addition of Mike Jenkins and Adam Jones I believe the cowboy's secondary will be better then the redskin's this year because of improved depth and the tragic loss of Sean Taylor.

Also losing Jacque Reeves is addition by subtraction, he was just awful.

[bubba9497]

Newman and Henry were both playing injured for much of last year, and Jacques "first down" Reeves was horrible, which is why he's gone and the cowboys brought in so many new corners

so what about losing Rogers, and the Death of ST?

Henry and Newman missed a total of 6 games combined, we lost both Rogers and Taylor for more games each.

(BTW Smoot missed a couple games injured as well)

[TEK2000]

Its no coincidence that all of the very top rated CB tandems in KC Joyners YPA stats are all Cover-2/Tampa-2 based coverage defenses where the CB's main responsibility is shorter/intermediate routes and most all of the time have safety help over the top on any deep routes.

Therefore, it seems logical that their YPA stats will almost always be among the lowest.

[bubba9497]

We faced more pass attempts than you guys did last year.

.

:shhh: facts mess them up

[ArmchairRedskin]

Because of health the redskin's CBs preformed better then the cowboy's CBs last year. With the addition of Mike Jenkins and Adam Jones I believe the cowboy's secondary will be better then the redskin's this year because of improved depth and the tragic loss of Sean Taylor.

Laughable. Jenkins hasn't played a down and Pacman is coming off a one year layover. Until proven otherwise, you gotta go with what's been proven. According to Joyner we had the second best CB unit in the NFL. All three of our CB's had top ten stop rates and top ten YPA. Now, we may have lost Sean Taylor, but we're starting Laron Landry in his place. It's not like we went out and got Roy Williams to play FS.

What part of your analysis is unbiased? What rationale do you use to justify the prediction that your CB's will be better? It seems more like a "I hope" analysis than anything else.

[ArmchairRedskin]

Its no coincidence that all of the very top rated CB tandems in KC Joyners YPA stats are all Cover-2/Tampa-2 based coverage defenses where the CB's main responsibility is shorter/intermediate routes and most all of the time have safety help over the top on any deep routes.

Therefore, it seems logical that their YPA stats will almost always be among the lowest.

We played a bunch of Cover 1 and 0.

You trying to tell me your safeties didn't help over top?

[Mr. Jones]

so what about losing Rogers, and the Death of ST?

Henry and Newman missed a total of 6 games combined, we lost both Rogers and Taylor for more games each.

Not playing didn't hurt their statics, Newman and Henry playing hurt week in and week out did.

My arguement isn't who preformed better last year though, just that this year the cowboys appear to have a stronger secondary then the redskins.

[ArmchairRedskin]

Not playing didn't hurt their statics, Newman and Henry playing hurt week in and week out did.

My arguement isn't who preformed better last year though, just that this year the cowboys appear to have a stronger secondary then the redskins.

Based on what? Back up your prediction.

[bubba9497]

What part of your analysis is unbiased? What rationale do you use to justify the prediction that your CB's will be better? It seems more like a "I hope" analysis than anything else.

poke logic

also known as fantasy land

we are returning Rogers, added a former starting SS in FA, return McIntosh and added Jason Taylor

but pacman and a rookie are better?

[bubba9497]

Based on what? Back up your prediction.

what else?

[ArmchairRedskin]

poke logic

also known as fantasy land

we are returning Rogers, added a former starting SS in FA, return McIntosh and added Jason Taylor

but pacman and a rookie are better?

Yeah, none of these Dallas fans are taking into account the fact that we just added a significant pass rusher to our left side. They had the benefit of a pair of double digit sackers on their team. We didn't.

[ArmchairRedskin]

BTW,

I backed up my claims with stats and such VCD. All I got from you was ">". So you're exactly the same as the people your sarcastic post made fun of earlier.

[VCDefectors]

We faced more pass attempts than you guys did last year.

I can own up to that. I should have looked it up.

Having said that, here are the 2007 numbers:

TEAM COM ATT PCT YARDS

DAL 342 581 58.9 3409

WAS 351 602 58.3 3424

So, in effect, we're splitting hairs over a 0.6% difference in the completion rate and 15 yards. Are you sure you want to hang your hat on that? I wouldn't, especially considering a good chunk of those yards went against Jacque Reeves and Nate Jones, two below average CBs who are no longer on the team.

How can you take into account somebody that 1) hasn't played since 2006 is a rookie?

We're returning proven commodities, not question marks.

Jenkins isn't going to set the world on fire as a rookie, but he will be the nickel CB and should be more than fine for that role. I watched Scandrick play many, many times at Boise State. He has outstanding speed (he's as fast as Newman) and can cover man to man. He will play the dime.

Both Jenkins and Scandrick are doing things in camp that Reeves or N. Jones never did during their time in Dallas.

[bubba9497]

BTW,

I backed up my claims with stats and such VCD. All I got from you was ">". So you're exactly the same as the people your sarcastic post made fun of earlier.

:yes: bingo

[ArmchairRedskin]

I can own up to that. I should have looked it up.

Having said that, here are the 2007 numbers:

TEAM COM ATT PCT YARDS

DAL 342 581 58.9 3409

WAS 351 602 58.3 3424

So, in effect, we're splitting hairs over a 0.6% difference in the completion rate and 15 yards. Are you sure you want to hang your hat on that? I wouldn't, especially considering a good chunk of those yards went against Jacque Reeves and Nate Jones, to below average CBs who are no longer on the team.

Why would I have to hang my hat on a point you tried to use to back up your argument?

Jenkins isn't going to set the world on fire as a rookie, but he will be the nickel CB and should be more than fine for that role. I watched Scandrick play many, many times at Boise State. He has outstanding speed (he's as fast as Newman) and can cover man to man. He will play the dime.

That's great. I can name some guys on our team too. Tryon. Westbrook. Torrence.

Both Jenkins and Scandrick are doing things in camp that Reeves or N. Jones never did during their time in Dallas.

Are they avoiding getting their ankles broken by UDFAs? Hopefully they aren't eating as much turf as your newly acquired FA.

[Mr. Jones]

Based on what? Back up your prediction.

Newman is considered a top 3 coverage cornerback, right up there with Nnamdi and Champ. He is very good, rarely targeted and didn't allow a touchdown pass for I believe 25 games in a row. Shawn Springs is very good too, but Newman is better.

Henry was having a great season before getting hurt, he was leading the NFL in interception and was over all very solid. Teams would throw away from Newman and Henry made them pay for it. I udnerstand Carlos Rogers was also having a ver good season before his injury (broken tibia was it?) and is more physically gifted but last I checked he's still recovering and it's unknown when he'll be at 100%.

Fred Smoot usually strikes me as a solid but unspectacular player, and is a very good for a #3 CB. Pacman had an alright rookie season, a good 2nd season and because he's kind of an idiot off the field got suspended. His physical tallent though is pretty unquestionable, and if he keeps his head on straight has the potential to be something special. Jenkins is unproven but was considered the top CB prospect before the underwear olypics got started. He should provide good depth while he adjusts to the pace of the game.

For the safety position Landry has the potential to be great, he has all the tools but is young and makes some boneheaded mistakes. Hamlin had a very good year and was the better safety last year but doesn't have Dirty 30's physical skills so I think it's only a mater of time before Landry outplays him.

Roy Williams has become everyone's favorite whipping boy lately, but even with his play falling off the last few years he is still a good safety, just not the elite game changing safety he's being paid to be, and was early in his career. That being said, he's still better then Doughty.

Both teams have very tallented secondaries, but I think the cowboy's upgrades to their 3rd and 4th corners gives them better depth (Reeves and Nate Jones really were that bad last year) puts them ahead.

That being said, we won't know until the season is underway, and I know B&G glasses will see things differently then my blue and silver shades.

[kevin11]

Just wanted to get a Skin on there. Landry might be after this year, but if...not even gonna say it. It makes me too sad.

You should've put Fletcher in there.

Fletcher was #6 in tackles last year.

1228 tackles 27.5 sacks 14 interceptions.

He has always been in the nfc.

[kevin11]

We played a bunch of Cover 1 and 0.

You trying to tell me your safeties didn't help over top?

Cover 1, I don't know about. Cover 1 has the CB playing at the line.

I think we played alot of Cover 3.

[ArmchairRedskin]

Newman is considered a top 3 coverage cornerback, right up there with Nnamdi and Champ. He is very good, rarely targeted and didn't allow a touchdown pass for I believe 25 games in a row. Shawn Springs is very good too, but Newman is better.

Henry was having a great season before getting hurt, he was leading the NFL in interception and was over all very solid. Teams would throw away from Newman and Henry made them pay for it. I udnerstand Carlos Rogers was also having a ver good season before his injury (broken tibia was it?) and is more physically gifted but last I checked he's still recovering and it's unknown when he'll be at 100%.

Fred Smoot usually strikes me as a solid but unspectacular player, and is a very good for a #3 CB. Pacman had an alright rookie season, a good 2nd season and because he's kind of an idiot off the field got suspended. His physical tallent though is pretty unquestionable, and if he keeps his head on straight has the potential to be something special. Jenkins is unproven but was considered the top CB prospect before the underwear olypics got started. He should provide good depth while he adjusts to the pace of the game.

For the safety position Landry has the potential to be great, he has all the tools but is young and makes some boneheaded mistakes. Hamlin had a very good year and was the better safety last year but doesn't have Dirty 30's physical skills so I think it's only a mater of time before Landry outplays him.

Roy Williams has become everyone's favorite whipping boy lately, but even with his play falling off the last few years he is still a good safety, just not the elite game changing safety he's being paid to be, and was early in his career. That being said, he's still better then Doughty.

Both teams have very tallented secondaries, but I think the cowboy's upgrades to their 3rd and 4th corners gives them better depth (Reeves and Nate Jones really were that bad last year) puts them ahead.

That being said, we won't know until the season is underway, and I know B&G glasses will see things differently then my blue and silver shades.

Just so I have it all straight,

Newman > Springs

Pacman > Smoot

Henry > coming off injury Rogers

Rookie Jenkins > whoever wins the dime spot for us

Hamlin> Landry for now

Roy Williams>Doughty

Did I get that right?

This is despite the fact that Springs had the best stop rate of all CB's in 2005, battled injuries in 2006, and again, had the best stop rate of every single CB in the league including Newman last year.

Depsite the fact that Rogers was the #1 corner in the league in stop rate before he went down

Despite the fact that Smoot had a 5.6 YPA last year which is better than Pacman's best of 5.7

Despite the fact that Landry had a 4.4 yards per pass against him.

Now I could toss in the fact that your pass rush was a lot better than ours so you had an advantage there last year and that our pass rush is a lot better for us this year with Jason Taylor added in to the mix.

I could toss in reports out of camp that Rogers is 100% and is only being held out as a precautionary measure.

I could toss in the fact that Landry will be a full time FS for us this year and that he excels at pass coverage.

I could toss all that in and tell you that I have little doubt that my team's secondary has just as much, if not more talent than yours does with the added bonus of a more fearsome pass rush and tell you that I have no doubt we'll be better. And I'd have a strong case.

I mean, Newman is injured right now in camp. Pacman hasn't even been reinstated. Henry may have had a bunch of INT's early, but only had 1 after your week 8 bye. Jenkins is a rookie, and Roy sucks in coverage.

It doesn't seem all too clearcut to me that you have more talent or even any significant advantage anywhere across the board.

Maybe it's just me, though.

[ArmchairRedskin]

Cover 1, I don't know about. Cover 1 has the CB playing at the line.

I think we played alot of Cover 3.

Cover 1 designates one deep safety. Whether you play off the receiver or not is ancillary. Cover 3 is when the backfield is split into thirds for coverage.

[kevin11]

Cover 1 designates one deep safety. Whether you play off the receiver or not is ancillary. Cover 3 is when the backfield is split into thirds for coverage.

Yea, I remember that from football. I just forgot it when we posted it.

I remember that we played some cover 3 though. There was a thread about it explaining cover 3. I'll see if i can find it.The search stopped in April, couldn't find it.

I really don't know that much about coverage though.

[VCDefectors]

Why would I have to hang my hat on a point you tried to use to back up your argument?

That's great. I can name some guys on our team too. Tryon. Westbrook. Torrence.

Are they avoiding getting their ankles broken by UDFAs? Hopefully they aren't eating as much turf as your newly acquired FA.

I wasn't the one originally attempting use 2007 statistics to make a point. You guys were.

But I will cop to the notion that my statements about the CBs are projection-based. I don't have a problem with that. It's also equally risky to assume that 2007 statistics are going to tell you everything you need to know about 2008, so there is some projection coming from you as well.

[ArmchairRedskin]

I wasn't the one originally attempting use 2007 statistics to make a point. You guys were.

But I will cop to the notion that my statements about the CBs are projection-based. I don't have a problem with that. It's also equally risky to assume that 2007 statistics are going to tell you everything you need to know about 2008, so there is some projection coming from you as well.

Well, when you're predicting who will have the better secondary, I think it goes without saying that there are projections involved. Except, I backed my projections up with performances from last year. You're backing yours up with ">" symbols.

[ArmchairRedskin]

Yea, I remember that from football. I just forgot it when we posted it.

I remember that we played some cover 3 though. There was a thread about it explaining cover 3. I'll see if i can find it.The search stopped in April, couldn't find it.

I really don't know that much about coverage though.

No big deal. But if you remember Gregg Williams talking before last year began, he stated in his interviews that they were gonna have Sean roam the backfield in the cover 1. That was pretty much how Sean got his interceptions last year. The cover 1 uses a deep safety to cover a lot of ground. Only somebody with Taylor's range will be any good at it. Remember him picking Favre off? That was a classic example of the cover 1 being used effectively by a team with a rangey FS.