How good is Santana Moss?

[Cooley4President]

2005 he had a great year...I think he also had several HUGE games that inflated his stats that year though...

Yeah, if you take away the games that he went over 100 yards, he didn't even go over 100 yards in a game.....

[Audible_Red40]

Yeah, if you take away the games that he went over 100 yards, he didn't even go over 100 yards in a game.....

LOL, Pittman4Two, is that you?

[Thinking Skins]

How was that his call? Perhaps some of the responsibility for having a player at 50% should go towards the coaching staff?

Santana is a stud when healthy. He is our #1, and will remain so until he is traded/released/retired.

And no, I don't believe he will have lingering injuries. And if he does get injured this season ::gasp:: we will be ok.

Thats possible, but the fact remains that he was playing so he should be held accountable for his performance. Other players play with injuries (remember Jansen with the thumbs) and have great performances. Moss didn't.

And you don't even see the possibility of a more reliable WR beating him out? Thomas is learning the flanker position behind Moss. This is a guy who was supposed to be a to 15 draft pick. You don't see the possibility of Moss being moved to a #2 (or 3) role if Thomas (and Kelly) emerge in the coming seasons?

[jweisk1]

moss is a beast in open field and excells in YAC, but ut was kinda hard this year for him to perfrom at top levels when the defense would always double team him since we would come out of 1 AnD 2 reciever sets..with more options to spread the field and more receivers in different formations..watch out for mismatches with moss that end up going for 6

I dont think the problem with last year was that he was always double covered...I think one of the main problems was the o-line...they couldnt give JC enough time for the play to fully develop and use his most valuable asset, which is his speed...

[Clarkin09]

Now according to 2007 stats I found Moss actually fumbled less than Reggie Wanye, Larry Fitzgerald, Reggie Williams, Roy Williams, Chad Johnson, Boldin, Wes Welker amogest other big named players.

Moss averaged 57 yards a game with a ypc just over 13 on 61 catches in the regular season. He had 5 games were he averaged over 14 yards a catch 2 of those games he averaged 25 ypc. 2 100 yard games (both against Dallas), 6 games with at least 5 catches, he had at least 6 catches that went for 30 or more yards. His lowest ypc in a game was 7.4 (T.O.'s was a flat 7)

He had a better YPC averagve than Welker, Colston, Holt, Steve Smith, Boldin and averaged the same as Roy Williams.

So my conclusion is that if he stays healthy Moss will be a good #1. He does have a lot of upside to him.

Now a team cant double team Moss and triple team Cooley. With these young recievers Moss should be able to produce. If he stays healthy and can not produce this year, well then its time to part ways.

[jweisk1]

Tell that to Steve Smith...

He has seemed to do it by himself for the last few years....

Its such a cop out to say he doesnt have enough other good WR...reminds me of Ray Lewis a few years ago ****ing because their nose tackle wasnt great and for the Ravens to draft Nadta (sp?) so Ray could get more involved in the play...

[jrfriedm]

Moss is a great speed receiver. He can stretch the field like few players in the NFL, however; he is definitely not a physical receiver. He has great timing w/ his jumps and can adjust to the ball in the air better than most, but he is not good at getting the defender off of him if the defender is using his hands a lot. Santana's biggest weakness is definitely his lack of ability stay healthy.

[guinnesscrazy]

O-line. I seem to remember way too many plays last year where it looked like JC wanted to get the ball downfield to Moss but never had enough time to fully assess the field. I did like what I saw in some of the slants Moss ran last year though. I tend to think of him as a quick deep-ball guy, but he seemed to really excel in a few games on the 3rd & 6 slant play for a first down. I actually think he'd be better suited as maybe a Wes Welker type than the constant deep threat.

Hopefully with all our new offensive weapons, he will get a bit more room to operate - and have a hell of a season.

[JimmyConway]

a true #1 WR is a player that controls the defensive scheme on every play...He is a guy that keeps D-coordinators up all night on how to cover him...I dont think S. Moss has that threat...

Moss is an explosive player but the whole defensive scheme doesnt revolve around him...

Remember Dallas last year, TO 4 tds...thats what a #1 WR does to a defense when he is not accounted for on every play...

You're exactly correct. Moss is a playmaker but not in a #1 WR mold. He has to be accounted for by defenses but not on every down but that was mainly due to our offensive philosophy.

That could change with the new WCO that Zorn will bring. Moss could become, once again a legitimate deep threat (not necessarily a #1 WR) since we'll be lining up 3 WRs with CP in the backfield. The beauty of it is now with guys like Kelly and Thomas we can send Moss deep to simply stretch the coverage and open things up. Again, this depends on his health which IMO we won't have to worry about due to us putting less pressure on him and because of the acquisition of the new training staff.

[eljeasel]

Didnt most teams put Cloud-2 coverage on Santana to make sure they didnt get burned?

If the Redskins Offense can be more than a 1 or 2 trick pony, that might help Santana regain the form of 2005

[guinnesscrazy]

Thats possible, but the fact remains that he was playing so he should be held accountable for his performance. Other players play with injuries (remember Jansen with the thumbs) and have great performances. Moss didn't.

:doh:

If Jansen was running 100 mph downfield in a timed route and actually had to use those two hands he had casts on to catch a ball over a speedy defender, I might agree with you.

Otherwise, comparing Jansen to Moss in terms of playing through injuries is like comparing Frost to Campbell. It's a mountain of difference.

[Edit] Plus, Moss had injury problems with his leg - one of the key aspects to his game, and certainly the most important factor in his speed, which makes him such a viable threat. Taking Jansen's forearms away from him only limited his grasping abilities, which really just meant that he didn't get called for holding. Other than that, his ability to block, boost off the line, and press defenders was not really affected all that much by a couple of casts.

[jrfriedm]

:doh:

If Jansen was running 100 mph downfield in a timed route and actually had to use those two hands he had casts on to catch a ball over a speedy defender, I might agree with you.

Otherwise, comparing Jansen to Moss in terms of playing through injuries is like comparing Frost to Campbell. It's a mountain of difference.

Their positions are completely different, yes. However, to say that Jansen's injured hands didn't hinder is completely wrong. An OT greatest weapon is his hands. Sure Santana's hamstrings definitely hindered him (I don't think anybody is arguing/denying that), but to say that his injury hindered him more than Jansen's is completely unfounded.

[Thinking Skins]

Didnt most teams put Cloud-2 coverage on Santana to make sure they didnt get burned?

If the Redskins Offense can be more than a 1 or 2 trick pony, that might help Santana regain the form of 2005

But should it be that easy to shut down a number 1?

[guinnesscrazy]

I don't know how it's unfounded. Moss needs the hamstring for his speed. If it's injured, he has no legs, no power, no speed - very hard to be effective when that's his #1 selling point.

Jansen's top priority is to be in the way of people. Limited use of the hands did not affect his ability to 'be in the way'. Sure, it affected his ability to control defenders, perhaps, but the hands did not take away his ability to crouch down, stand up, push, etc. Even a guy with no arms whatsoever can still stand in the way of someone. They won't be terribly effective, but they can do it. However, someone with no legs cannot run.

[Thinking Skins]

:doh:

If Jansen was running 100 mph downfield in a timed route and actually had to use those two hands he had casts on to catch a ball over a speedy defender, I might agree with you.

Otherwise, comparing Jansen to Moss in terms of playing through injuries is like comparing Frost to Campbell. It's a mountain of difference.

[Edit] Plus, Moss had injury problems with his leg - one of the key aspects to his game, and certainly the most important factor in his speed, which makes him such a viable threat. Taking Jansen's forearms away from him only limited his grasping abilities, which really just meant that he didn't get called for holding. Other than that, his ability to block, boost off the line, and press defenders was not really affected all that much by a couple of casts.

All I'm saying is that Jason was able to play through the pain and it didn't effect his performance on the field. Offensive linemen do need their hands though. How is he supposed to get a grip on somebody without using his thumbs?

I think Jansen losing his thumbs is very similar to Moss losing his hammy. If Moss and the coaches determined that he was able to play, then he shouldn't be able to use the excuse "I was injured".

[jrfriedm]

I don't know how it's unfounded. Moss needs the hamstring for his speed. If it's injured, he has no legs, no power, no speed - very hard to be effective when that's his #1 selling point.

Jansen's top priority is to be in the way of people. Limited use of the hands did not affect his ability to 'be in the way'. Sure, it affected his ability to control defenders, perhaps, but the hands did not take away his ability to crouch down, stand up, push, etc. Even a guy with no arms whatsoever can still stand in the way of someone. They won't be terribly effective, but they can do it. However, someone with no legs cannot run.

My friend, there is a lot more that goes into being an offensive linemen than just being in the way of a defender. You must have excellent footwork and balance, and above all a strong upper body w/ extremely quick hands. On every single play, the offensive lineman’s jobs is maintain contact with the defender and deny that defender space and separation. The defender needs that separation to be able to get to the ball career and make the tackle.

As a former center and offensive line coach, I can assure that the ability to grab and hold a Defensive lineman inside the shoulder pads is imperative to being a capable, never mind an outstanding O-lineman.

Again, I completely agree that Moss's hamstring injury was a major hindrance for him. And I have no doubt that few if any WR's can play at a pro-bowl level with a pulled hamstring, but don't take away the incredible job Jansen did with two broken thumbs. That was truly spectacular.

[AKM311]

Guys it is simple. Moss is not a "spot" catcher. He has never been a good WR at knowing to get to a spot and pray the ball is there at that time.

If you can recall any of his big plays [Minn, Dallas (both games), GB (he was open just dropped balls), and others] he was running down the sidelines catching bombs. Other catches were when he was running slants and running with it.

What Saunders did to him was make him a spot catcher. His job was to run to a spot and the ball is supposed to be there. Look back at his history in NYJ. It tells the same thing.

Dropping the ball is a different issue. However, I do blame a lot of that on him thinking too much on where he is supposed to be instead of running a normal route and expecting the ball to be there.

At least that is my two cents. It also explains why he had such an amazing year before Saunders. This is no way intended to blame Saunders as some WRs (Holt and Bruce) are very good at this type of play calling. Moss isn't. Next year will really tell where he is in the NFL as he has played in the WCO and has had time to develop with Campbell.

[AKM311]

All I'm saying is that Jason was able to play through the pain and it didn't effect his performance on the field. Offensive linemen do need their hands though. How is he supposed to get a grip on somebody without using his thumbs?

I think Jansen losing his thumbs is very similar to Moss losing his hammy. If Moss and the coaches determined that he was able to play, then he shouldn't be able to use the excuse "I was injured".

Sorry buddy, but no way in hell. If you want to compare injuries, then compare losing a bicep/tricep muscle for Jansen to Moss's hammy. Those are the strengths of there positions. Notice how Randy Thomas couldn't play with the arm injury? It is impossible and your asking to be pushed around.

Now with broken thumbs, you can cast it up, protect it, and block by punching without using your thumbs. But if you lose the backbone of your arm strength as an o-lineman, that is like using the backbone of a wrs strength, his legs.

[phatSkins27]

The stats can be broken down further, but how concrete is his spot in the lineup?

the fact that Jim Zorn said Santan is going to be my starting X (split end) Reciver means he will be on this team next year starting barring injury

[GeneralStonewallTaylor]

a true #1 WR is a player that controls the defensive scheme on every play...He is a guy that keeps D-coordinators up all night on how to cover him...I dont think S. Moss has that threat...

Moss is an explosive player but the whole defensive scheme doesnt revolve around him...

Remember Dallas last year, TO 4 tds...thats what a #1 WR does to a defense when he is not accounted for on every play...

TO never did that when ST was still out there. I miss seeing that little punk cringe in fear and then let the ball bounce off his fingertips b/c he heard #21's footsteps.

[guinnesscrazy]

Err, yeah - what AKM said.

Look, I never said Jansen didn't use his hands or that they're not important to an OL. My point was that if Moss cannot run, he cannot be an effective receiver downfield. He could catch screens and hooks to jump OB I suppose, but his effectiveness as a receiving threat completely disappears.

Moss cannot run without legs, Jansen can play (yes, yes, albeit limited in physicality) with casts on.

Actually, Jansen did nothing but prove my point. He was effective without the use of his hands. He proved that, even with casts, he could block, push, stand guys up, and keep his QB protected.

I have yet to see any receiver - ever - have a hamstring injury and still go out and catch 150 yds. for 4 TDs while keeping the defense out of reach - on a week-to-week basis.

All I'm trying to say is that it's not fair to say that since Jansen played with casts on, we should have expected Moss to be a top receiver with a hamstring injury. One has nothing to do with the other.

[wilsonian]

I'm glad that Santana is being moved back to the X-receiver position, where he had his two greatest years as a pro (one for the NY Jets, and his 2005 season with Washington). Also, I think our West Coast Offense will allow Santana to get a lot of yards after the catch, an area in which he thrives.

[LoudMouth12thMan]

Santana has been banged up the past two years. Teams have really only had to cover two people on our offense in the passing game (Moss and Cooley). We needed to add more weapons to take the attention off of both of those guys. ARE stepped it up toward the end of the season, and adding 3 skill guys via the draft will definitely help. I'm just not sure how soon it will help. Hopefully these guys will come in and contribute right away. Santana is the bomb though and in the last 4 games including Seattle he played his ass off. He's definitely a great #2 receiver just like ARE is a #3. I believe that they are both essentially slot guys, but they've been put in different roles on our team b/c of the lack of a stud big receiver. We've just never had a true #1 guy with size, speed, and explosiveness like a TO, CJ, Plax, Randy, etc. Moss proved that he can be a number 1 though in '05, but the O line was so good that year. The past couple of years have been tough for the offense mainly b/c of injuries to key guys. If guys can stay fairly healthy for the most part, Santana's numbers will get back up there.

HTTR

[jrfriedm]

Err, yeah - what AKM said.

Look, I never said Jansen didn't use his hands or that they're not important to an OL. My point was that if Moss cannot run, he cannot be an effective receiver downfield. He could catch screens and hooks to jump OB I suppose, but his effectiveness as a receiving threat completely disappears.

Moss cannot run without legs, Jansen can play (yes, yes, albeit limited in physicality) with casts on.

Actually, Jansen did nothing but prove my point. He was effective without the use of his hands. He proved that, even with casts, he could block, push, stand guys up, and keep his QB protected.

I have yet to see any receiver - ever - have a hamstring injury and still go out and catch 150 yds. for 4 TDs while keeping the defense out of reach - on a week-to-week basis.

All I'm trying to say is that it's not fair to say that since Jansen played with casts on, we should have expected Moss to be a top receiver with a hamstring injury. One has nothing to do with the other.

I'm not saying that a WR w/ a pulled hamstring can do all that. I understand that Moss was HINDERED by the fact that he had a pulled hamstring. I'm saying that you shouldn't dismiss the incredible effort displayed by another player.

[Thinking Skins]

Err, yeah - what AKM said.

Moss cannot run without legs, Jansen can play (yes, yes, albeit limited in physicality) with casts on.

...

I have yet to see any receiver - ever - have a hamstring injury and still go out and catch 150 yds. for 4 TDs while keeping the defense out of reach - on a week-to-week basis.

I stand by it though. If Moss couldn't produce without legs, then he shouldn't be playing. Its that simple. He had a bad year last year, no matter what the excuses are. If he has another bad year, then I can imagine him being benched in favor of Thomas.