Depth

[JMUGator19]

The Redskins have had a very reoccuring problem these past few years... and that is sufficient depth.

When Gibbs came in, he had to replace half of the team, and he did so with the use of Free Agents. Personally, I think he had no real choice, the team was in shambles and Trung Canidate was our premier running back. Since Gibbs 2.0 he has aquired a solid group of starters that can compete with just about any team in the NFL. However, he is not god, and he was unable to gather two other types of players. Superstars and backups.

I firmly believe that Gibbs could have gotten better "superstars". People who can be considered top 2 or 3 in the league, but chose to go with character over skill. I also believe although he was probably right in doing so at the time, it is very difficult to keep winning close games with "B" players. I assume he did so because:

a) they are cheaper

they will stick with the team through the hard times (early on)

However, now the Redskins are missing that A+ player (Tom Brady HOFer type of player) and the Redskins are also missing sufficient depth because of the lack of a big draft (untill this year)

To reitterate, I agree with how he went about it, but I also think he would do the same exact thing the Redskins are doing now (big draft) and I think he had a 5 year plan that we are generally on the right track of.

Superstars will come with high draft picks or big FA moves, and happen when they happen... forcing those is not exactly an option.

PS we only have Portis, Chris Samuels and London Fletcher who can be considered solid superstars...

DEPTH however... is probably easiest to fulfill in the draft.

Now if we assume that the WRs and TE are at least #2 quality recievers. we should have sufficient depth there. Since they were our first day picks... they had better be at least number 2s.

Everything else is fair game. So big time poll...

Do we have depth at:

QB, RB, OT, OG/C, DE, DT, OLB, MLB, CB, S?

My opinion is that we have depth on every position on offense but virtually no position on defense. (any other year and we would have it with CB but who knows how Carlos comes back this year)

What do you think?

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[JMUGator19]

woops I did the exact opposite of what I wanted to vote for... thinking on weekends is tough...:doh:

[Califan007 The Constipated]

You didn't include receivers and tight end??...

[GroundNPound]

I agree that there is a lack of depth at most Defensive positions, but that fluxuates w/ injury.

If Carlos Rogers and Rocky were healthy, We would have great depth at OLD and CB.

DE is questionable only because of the ? at the backup positions. Is James going to pan out? Can Wilson become an every down player? Is Jackson going to make the roster?

DT is pretty set, but if Griffin or Montgomery gets hurt that changes.

Only position where we are stacked w/ depth is WR now, and maybe TE.

But that's the way the cookie crumbles. The deeper the injury list, the shallower the roster depth.

As far as the "A+" talent thing goes, you should have listed someone other than Brady. You listed using high draft picks and FA s to rebuild a roster, then used a 7th round draft pick as your example star.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I'm wondering...which team out there is thought to have "excellent depth"?

I remember before the 2007 season the conventional wisdom was that the Skins lacked depth and would be in trouble if they had any injuries to starters. Yet out of the teams that lost 6 starters for the year due to injury, the Redskins were the only team to make it to the playoffs...which would seem to indicate that we did indeed have some pretty good depth.

So if anyone can point me to a team that is said to have excellent depth, I wanna go look at their roster and see what it is we're missing lol ...

[JMUGator19]

You didn't include receivers and tight end??...

Nope, purposely left it out because I don't want this being a Thomas/Kelly/Davis thread. We are just going to have to trust those 3 guys turn out and untill then assume we have dept at WR and TE.

I am not saying the skins should definetely not draft another WR next year, (maybe not another TE higher than the 3rd round) but for all intents and purposes... if we did, we would be blasted because we already have possible depth at those two positions.

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[JMUGator19]

I'm wondering...which team out there is thought to have "excellent depth"?

I remember before the 2007 season the conventional wisdom was that the Skins lacked depth and would be in trouble if they had any injuries to starters. Yet out of the teams that lost 6 starters for the year due to injury, the Redskins were the only team to make it to the playoffs...which would seem to indicate that we did indeed have some pretty good depth.

So if anyone can point me to a team that is said to have excellent depth, I wanna go look at their roster and see what it is we're missing lol ...

The Chargers and Colts come to mind...

[JMUGator19]

I agree that there is a lack of depth at most Defensive positions, but that fluxuates w/ injury.

If Carlos Rogers and Rocky were healthy, We would have great depth at OLD and CB.

DE is questionable only because of the ? at the backup positions. Is James going to pan out? Can Wilson become an every down player? Is Jackson going to make the roster?

DT is pretty set, but if Griffin or Montgomery gets hurt that changes.

Only position where we are stacked w/ depth is WR now, and maybe TE.

But that's the way the cookie crumbles. The deeper the injury list, the shallower the roster depth.

As far as the "A+" talent thing goes, you should have listed someone other than Brady. You listed using high draft picks and FA s to rebuild a roster, then used a 7th round draft pick as your example star.

You said it yourself, the best depth happens with the least injuries... so what team can sustain the most injuries and maintain their level of production...

Plus, you have to always assume that your 7th rounders do not pan out or become starters. Because they usually do not.

PS, I never said it was easy to judge... if you think Marcus Washington is going to get injured, then you might want to say there is weak depth at OLB... I do think that 1 starter from every defensive position will get injured for more than 2 games with the exception of Laron Landry. Period.

I also think 2 OL man will get injured, but I think their production fallout will not be too big.

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[Recent Vintage]

Our deepest positions to me are WR, TE, (As mentioned in the original post) QB, and RB.

Todd Collins and Betts are both excellent backups, and as we've seen can perform as starters. Plus Colt Brennan and Rock Cartwright aren't exactly scrubs. (Many would argue with the former, but you don't have a 70% completion rating without having some skill.)

Our O-line depth is pretty solid too. We know Heyer/Fabini/Wade can perform, unfortunately the rookies this year are all question marks... IMO one of them will beat out Wade or Fabini for a roster spot.

D-line depth depends on how you look at it. We have a great run stopping line, but other than Andre Carter or Griffin in '05 it's not like they're going to win us a game. The bottom line (haha) for DE depth comes when you look at James, Buzbee, Wilson, and Evans. How good are they really? Evans is at least serviceable... Can Wilson play every down? Does he even want to? Can James bounce back from injury? These are all things I hope get figured out in camp.

As for DT I think we're set with Monty/Griffin/Golston and Daniels coming inside if he needs to.

CB and LB are in a strange place for us, because depth would be completely fine if it wasn't for two bad injuries to our young guys. If Rogers and Rocky were healthy it really wouldn't be an issue, but if either or both of them can't come back by the start of the season there could be some trouble, especially because of the fragile nature of Springs and Washington. I do have high hopes for Tryon though, and Blades is a player.

Safety is kind of up in the air as well. Depth became less of an issue with the acquisition of Schweigart. I see him as playing PP's role of yester-season, and hopefully he doesn't push LL to strong safety, and Doughty to the bench.

We'll see about the rookies in camp. Moore sounds promising, but how about that knee surgery? Can he even fully perform in camp and the pre-season? Horton is a toss-up, but no one ever expects anything from a 7th rounder anyway.

PS: Oh yeah, we're deep as hell at punter.

[CRobi21]

I'm sure there are other teams that have much better depth than us at each position. But we sure as hell are in better shape than we were when the offseason started.

Can't wait for training camp!!!

[Mr. S]

we have depth at QB, RB, WR, TE, Safety (especially if Schweigert and Reed can both play), and maybe DT (our rotation of Griffin, Montgomery, and Golston seemed to work pretty well).

DE, depends on how Chris Wilson and Erasmus James can work out. If James can, they we have very solid depth, since Demetric Evans is also still around and is a solid DE.

Offensive Guard, I'm pleased with drafting Rinehart, and I'm hoping Crummey and Kerry Brown can step it up. Shoot, if all three of those can play, along with Heyer, then we definitely have depth along our line.

CB is definitely thin, but maybe Tryon can surprise us, Rogers can return to speed by game 8 as mentioned, and SPrings/Smoot can stay healthy.

[elkabong82]

We do have depth, but I take it to mean the quality is in question.

QB, RB, TE, WR all have good depth. OT I'm not so sure right now. We have Samuels and Jansen starting, and Heyer and Wade as back-ups. Heyer showed promise last season, Wade showed deterioration. I'd say the depth there is so-so, meaning if one of our UDFAs doesn't step-up, I personally would bring in a FA. At guard the back-ups are Rinehart and Fabini. That depth isn't terrible, but I believe it to be just barely better than the depth at OT, so I'd say that is so-so, unless a UDFA steps up. FB is alright if you consider we have guys on PS that could come in, or Rock could switch over. Center we don't have much, so I hope Jansen is up to the task if Rabach went down.

On defense, the perception of quality also impacts your judgment of depth. At DT we have Griffin and Monty as starters. Gholston is a good back-up, but after that Alexander works both sides of the ball, so it is hard to gauge his level of performance at either area. Daniels can move inside, as can Evans, so again, it depends on perception. I personally wouldn't mind a FA being brought in, but we do have Boschetti fighting for a spot, so I'd say the depth at DT right now is alright. At DE we are actually in better shape than prob. a lot of people realize going off the results of the poll. Carter and Daniels are the starters. Wilson is a good situational guy, and could fill in for Carter. Daniels will likely be backed by James. You still have Evans who can be decent in relief. Then we have other guys like Buzbee and Rob Jackson fighting for spots, so right now I'd say the depth there is actually solid.

OLB needs help. Hopefully one of our guys steps up, like Sullivan, but right now, we need someone else. MLB has Blades backing up, who can also help out on the outside, so that area is solid.

CB we have Los coming off of injury, but even without him right away we have Springs and Smoot starting. Then we have Tryon and Torrence also in the wings, not to mention Westbrook fighting for a spot, so the depth there is good, IMO.

At safety we have Landry and Doughty as the starters for right now. Schweigert is excellent depth, and Fox is good for ST and has as been decent at times when filling in. We also have rookies Horton and Moore back there too, so the depth there is solid.

So the areas I would say that could still use some attention, in terms of depth, are OT, OG, C, DT, OLB.

[GSF]

Sean Taylor was on his way to being a superstar, and Portis was a superstar when we got him. Just pointing that out...

[JMUGator19]

Sean Taylor was on his way to being a superstar, and Portis was a superstar when we got him. Just pointing that out...

ST was the only one we could point to and say he was going to be a top 2 player in the league... a la Brady and Manning

I love Portis, and I think he is a top 5 back (Mostly because i dont think people magically get worse) but hes not top 2.

I say top 2 instead of top 5 because if you are top 2 in your position, theres a pretty good chance you are going to the HOF.

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[#BgMase76#]

:dallasuck Samuels is a 2 guy in the league honestly. ST was a #1 in the league. Cooley is a top 5. Portis is a top 5. I don't think you need a bunch of top 2's. Top 5-10 is what you need across the board. Look at N.E., they won all their rings with a bunch of top 15's. It just showed you the balance the team had. Look at the teams with 1's. dallas/T.O.= 0 playoff wins, Cincy/Chad= 0 playoff wins, Minn/A.P+Hutchinson= 0 playoff wins. Look around the league. When you get these number ones you really don't have the money or cap space to bring in the complimentary players. I think Joe's hardnose quality players kept us in more games than not.

[JMUGator19]

:dallasuck Samuels is a 2 guy in the league honestly. ST was a #1 in the league. Cooley is a top 5. Portis is a top 5. I don't think you need a bunch of top 2's. Top 5-10 is what you need across the board. Look at N.E., they won all their rings with a bunch of top 15's. It just showed you the balance the team had. Look at the teams with 1's. dallas/T.O.= 0 playoff wins, Cincy/Chad= 0 playoff wins, Minn/A.P+Hutchinson= 0 playoff wins. Look around the league. When you get these number ones you really don't have the money or cap space to bring in the complimentary players. I think Joe's hardnose quality players kept us in more games than not.

So NE was just fine and dandy without Brady and Moss?...

PS i dont know if alot of people consider TO top 2 at this point in his career... (hes definetely getting the drops and is old as crap, besides, Marvin Harrison and Moss have a better chance)

Chad Johnson top 2? I don't think so. I suppose you could argue him and TO, which is why i wont argue too much.

AP and Hutch had 1 season together... and what they accomplished with a crappy QB is a testiment to what top players can do. and AP is NOT a top 2 player, or at least yet.

I am looking around the league, and the top players are people like Brady, Manning, Moss, Harrison, Tomlinson, and the list goes on. As i said before. top 2 in the league implies you have a chance to be HOF bound. and HOFers are not comparable to hard nosed guys.

Sean Taylor was going to be our HOFer. Now we need another one to pick up where he left off.

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[GroundNPound]

So NE was just fine and dandy without Brady and Moss?...

PS i dont know if alot of people consider TO top 2 at this point in his career... (hes definetely getting the drops and is old as crap, besides, Marvin Harrison and Moss have a better chance)

Chad Johnson top 2? I don't think so. I suppose you could argue him and TO, which is why i wont argue too much.

AP and Hutch had 1 season together... and what they accomplished with a crappy QB is a testiment to what top players can do. and AP is NOT a top 2 player, or at least yet.

I am looking around the league, and the top players are people like Brady, Manning, Moss, Harrison, Tomlinson, and the list goes on. As i said before. top 2 in the league implies you have a chance to be HOF bound. and HOFers are not comparable to hard nosed guys.

Sean Taylor was going to be our HOFer. Now we need another one to pick up where he left off.

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When you say top 2, the list can only encompass certain skill positions as far as the impact you are talking about. Having a "top 2" player in a position gives you an impact player at that spot, but not every team is going to have that talent.

Look at the superbowl champs last year. Other than strahan, can you honestly say they have a top-2 in any skill set? Maybe in OL, but that's it.

When it comes to team talent, its about the sum. Having a true HOF player like Manning, Tomlinson, ir Brady will go a long way to helping your team... but the only true way to aquire a player like that is trough the draft. And as I said in my previous post, Brady was a 7th round draft pick. If someone turned to you on draft day 2 in 2000 and told you Brady was going to be one of the greatest QBs to play the game, you would more likely than not have laughed back at him.

Urlacher, Bailey, Ed Reed, Tony G... all of these are arguably top 2 in their positions. How did their teams fair? Not good. And all of them were healthy for the year.

[Spitfire71]

QB: You're usually fine if you can get through a couple of games while your starter's down with a short-term injury. No matter who you are, if your QB goes on IR in week 1, your chances severely decrease. Brennan (who I really liked at Hawaii) is an unproven quantity and even though Collins can probably be good for a 4-5 game span if it ever came to that, I wouldn't trust my season on his shoulders for 8-16 games any more than I would Campbell (who is also, despite what people think, an unproven quantity.)

RB: DEEP. Betts has already proven that he can go for 1,000 yards if he were to end up becoming the main workhorse. Obviously, if both were to go down, then we'd be in trouble. The good thing is that, this season there's a whole crapload of FA running backs that were former starters that are waiting for someone to sign them.

FB: Mike Sellers is vastly underrated. You usually don't need more than one fullback, but Lorenzo "Mr. Versatility" Alexander could play one in a pinch.

TE: That one game last year where Cooley went out for a quarter was the first time he'd gotten hurt...EVER. Yoder can catch a touchdown or two for us if necessary (as proven by that very game), so we were fine at this position in '07...BEFORE we added Fred Davis, who was one of three guys who were originally first-round prospects that we landed in the 2nd round.

WR: Can Moss and Randle El stay healthy and play up to form? I think our biggest question on the offensive side of the ball lies here. If either one of them is out for an extended period of time, we'll be putting the ball in the hands of our unproven rookies a lot more. In terms of numerical depth, we've got numerical depth. I imagine that we'll be taking six wideouts into the regular season just in case - Moss, ARE, Thomas, Kelly, Mix, and Thrash for his ST work. That gives us a largely young group as we've got two rookies and one third-year guy, but unlike last year, I think we'll have no issue running 3WR sets - which is important because, from what I've heard, the WCO uses a LOT of 3WR sets.

OL: We've all seen what our offensive line can do to people when all five of them are healthy. Samuels, Thomas, Raback, Kendall, Jansen is a good line. Besides that, I don't know. Again, Alexander can back up at some line positions, which is damn useful. I also REALLY like Stephon Heyer. Out of all of our young linemen, I think Heyer's the one with the most potential. Again, this is one of those positions where, if a guy misses a game, I think we're fine. If we have the same number of freak injuries to our line again next year, I think we're in trouble.

DL: Not really worried. Carter, Griffin, Montgomery, Daniels. I'm not even sure that'll be the final word, though. Daniels, despite his age (35) hasn't proven to be a major durability concern. Griffin can get nicked every now and then, but he's no Shawn Springs - that's for sure. Griffin and Daniels especially will have to give us more production than they did last year, though, or you could see shakeups at the position. Wilson and James (who I'd forgotten we signed until someone reminded me) should both survive training camp and provide depth outside. We've got Alexander (AGAIN) and Golston to round out the DT position. We should take cues from the Super Bowl Champion Giants (I don't like saying that phrase, but it's better than saying 'Super Bowl Champion Patriots', in any case). Love 'em or hate 'em, you've got to tip your hat to the sheer pressure they applied to the Patriots' offense. And they didn't just do it with 4 guys either. Four guys would have gotten tired eventually and the Giants probably would have lost. They had a rotation of six or seven DL that could all be brought in on a play-by-play basis to create different looks, different matchups, and keep their guys fresh. In Golston, Wilson, Alexander, and (perhaps) Erasmus James, we've got a group of young guys like that. Wilson's a great situational pass rusher - he gave us 4 sacks last year in limited duty. Golston showed some good things. Alexander has shown the ability to play at Defensive Tackle AND Defensive End. I think we're fine here, even if James doesn't use the change of scenery to prove why he was drafted so high in the first place.

LB: Blades. He's our best depth LB by far. Then, probably Matt Sinclair. I'd like to be deeper here, especially with Rocky coming off (or still on) an injury.

CB: Also worries me. Last year was probably the healthiest Springs has been in a long time, but he's not getting any younger. Rogers is having a good recovery, but will probably be slow (in several senses) out of the gate, too. Hopefully, Smoot can be at least as reliable as he was last year. Fortunately, this year we have an organization that will allow some of our younger corners to see the field in a few packages instead of babying them along by relegating them to the 6th spot on the depth chart. J.T. Tryon and Leigh Torrence will definitely see a little bit of playing time from the nickel and dime slots, which (with everyone healthy) would give us 5 able-bodied corners. If we end up keeping six (corner is a very injury-prone position to begin with), I wouldn't be surprised if Byron Westbrook sneaks in there, too.

S: Tragically, we'll never see Area 51 again...but guys - having two safeties who are both as skilled, as young, and as athletic as Taylor and Landry was a LUXURY. Right now, going into training camp, we've got six safeties. We probably keep 4. Landry's a shoo-in, Doughty's a shoo-in. We brought in Schweigert and signed two rookies. Most likely, this means Vernon Fox's job could be in trouble. In any case, though, I think we're absolutely fine here, too.

K: You never keep two kickers, but they don't typically get injured, do they? Instead of keeping two kickers, you keep one kicker and a shortlist of free agents you could call on if he goes down.

P: Same with punters. Whoever loses the job is going to get cut, but will probably be one call away from wearing the burgundy and gold (or MBY? WTF are our colors? o_O) again if the guy who wins the job somehow goes down.

My concern positions are WR (because of the unproven youth there), OL (always a concern because plugging in different linemen has a negative effect on line chemistry), LB (mainly because of Rocky's injury and Marcus' propensity to get hurt), and CB (mainly because of Rogers' injury and Springs' propensity to get hurt, as well as the youth behind them and Smoot).

There are a couple of teams each year that are going to be absolutely snakebitten to the point where it can do nothing but ruin their season. As long as we're not unlucky enough to end up being one of those teams, we should be fine.